Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

But neither kroot nor tau were conquered. Of course their a shade of Grey, but on the whole the question is Why do non Tau put up with it.

Let's analyse Imperials, a citizen can expect quotas and to meet tithes, long hours, on hive worlds mass over crowding, agri worlds, mining worlds backbreaking labour, forgeworlds/industrial worlds smog covered hells.

Now the Tau come in and take control, we know from Taros Campaign that this may be peacefully as well as militarily, It can be assumed that a world which resists would have to be kept on a tighter leash of control while re education occurs, worlds which join through manipulation of trade or diplomacy, change may be welcomed.
The workers may find more recreation hours, they may find new Technology and drones assisting them in their jobs, they may find accomodation and standards of living improved as the Tau go about consolidating their hold on the world. They may hear about the odd disappearence of rabble rousers, but on the whole life may improve.

Meanwhile life on the planet that resisted may have slow progress, human renegades may conduct campaign of guerilla warfare which the fire caste will attempt to put down. Control and monitoring of the resident population would be stepped up. The war brutally put down and the citizens exposed to massive curfews and monitoring.
Maybe even resulting in Genocide and resettlement if the rebellion psists.

It doesn't take much to follow the Greater Good, the imperial citizen may not even realise they follow it, they may just see the benefits of citizenship. Do their job, meet their quotas and go home to have a decent nights sleep.
Or They may actively resist the Tau or sabotage their effortsor even just skim a little off the top of their labours for their own gain.

Life with the Tau would presumably depend upon the circumstances in which each world is subjugated/welcomed. Their is not set answer as their is their no set method of operation.

 Eetion wrote:
But neither kroot nor tau were conquered. Of course their a shade of Grey, but on the whole the question is Why do non Tau put up with it.

Let's analyse Imperials, a citizen can expect quotas and to meet tithes, long hours, on hive worlds mass over crowding, agri worlds, mining worlds backbreaking labour, forgeworlds/industrial worlds smog covered hells.

Now the Tau come in and take control, we know from Taros Campaign that this may be peacefully as well as militarily, It can be assumed that a world which resists would have to be kept on a tighter leash of control while re education occurs, worlds which join through manipulation of trade or diplomacy, change may be welcomed.
The workers may find more recreation hours, they may find new Technology and drones assisting them in their jobs, they may find accomodation and standards of living improved as the Tau go about consolidating their hold on the world. They may hear about the odd disappearence of rabble rousers, but on the whole life may improve.

Meanwhile life on the planet that resisted may have slow progress, human renegades may conduct campaign of guerilla warfare which the fire caste will attempt to put down. Control and monitoring of the resident population would be stepped up. The war brutally put down and the citizens exposed to massive curfews and monitoring.
Maybe even resulting in Genocide and resettlement if the rebellion psists.

It doesn't take much to follow the Greater Good, the imperial citizen may not even realise they follow it, they may just see the benefits of citizenship. Do their job, meet their quotas and go home to have a decent nights sleep.
Or They may actively resist the Tau or sabotage their effortsor even just skim a little off the top of their labours for their own gain.

Life with the Tau would presumably depend upon the circumstances in which each world is subjugated/welcomed. Their is not set answer as their is their no set method of operation.

Its specifically mentioned in the codices and a little in Taros that the Tau provide new tools and technology to the Imperial worlds to make their lives easier in order to set up trading systems. IE: There is a specific example I believe in the codex where they provide new plowing systems to a world and then open trade for their food products. Taros was given new mining equipment.

You have to remember, the Imperium has gakky technology at the moment really, and rim worlds in the Eastern Fringe are probably the last in line to get anything good equipment-wise. They work long hours with crappy equipment, then these magical space saviors show up with fancy technology, give them some free stuff and say "here this'll make your life easier". There's also a side reference (I need to find it) where there's crazy cults who believe that the Tau are the Emperor's chosen race created by him (since the warp storm magically saved them, and they are hated by Chaos because their souls are not worth their time), and if I recall the source mentions that it could just be Tau propaganda that they set forth into Imperial Worlds to make subjugation easier.

I need to read back through the Codex and side sources again.. its easy to miss some important info.

The Kroot were not conquered because the Kroot did not resist Tau diplomacy. You could say the same thing about the AdMech. The Emperor did not conquer them because they agreed to his terms. It doesn't mean the Emperor wasn't a conqueror.

Also, your depiction of life under the Tau is based on ... what? You think no one works grueling hours in bad conditions for the Greater Good?

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I'm not going to call your view wrong mostly because I would like it if we could find space for both. Just that's more something you made up then something that's out right intended.

You can call me wrong, it won't hurt my feelings. What I would like is an argument why I am wrong. But I would like you to read the Tau Empire dex -- or at least Lexicanum -- before doing so.

I have read the dex already. I have read the BFG, Forge world, Death watch, about the only tau fluff I haven't read is fire warrior. I'm still not going to say your wrong though. Kroot already told you about the dev document. That's ultra intent. You what to know how tau where intended to be, just look there.

@nomotog,

There's a difference between intent and result.

If you read so much Tau fluff, how are you saying there is only one Tau offensive?

If you read the dex, or even the Lexicanum article, you would know that Tau history is made up of offensive actions to expand their empire. They find a new world and settle it. If people are already there, they invite them to become part of the Tau Empire. If those people say no, the Tau fight them until they submit or no longer exist. And then the Tau settle the world.

 Manchu wrote:
@nomotog,

There's a difference between intent and result.

If you read so much Tau fluff, how are you saying there is only one Tau offensive?

If you read the dex, or even the Lexicanum article, you would know that Tau history is made up of offensive actions to expand their empire. They find a new world and settle it. If people are already there, they invite them to become part of the Tau Empire. If those people say no, the Tau fight them until they submit or no longer exist. And then the Tau settle the world.

Wasn't the Damocles Gulf Crusade in response to Tau offensive actions in the region?

Edit: Not "offensive" but in response to Imperial worlds working and trading with the Tau actually, due to their "heretical technology".

In effect, yes. The Tau had not yet attacked the Damocles worlds because the humans there were receptive to trade. But as we know, the Water Caste goes before the Fire Caste. As Zhou Enlai said, "diplomacy is war by other means."

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
@nomotog,

There's a difference between intent and result.

If you read so much Tau fluff, how are you saying there is only one Tau offensive?

If you read the dex, or even the Lexicanum article, you would know that Tau history is made up of offensive actions to expand their empire. They find a new world and settle it. If people are already there, they invite them to become part of the Tau Empire. If those people say no, the Tau fight them until they submit or no longer exist. And then the Tau settle the world.

Wasn't the Damocles Gulf Crusade in response to Tau offensive actions in the region?

The gulf crusade was a response to tau trading in the region. It started when they IoM realized they weren't receiving all the shipments they where expecting and when they investigated they found there planets traded there materials to the tau instead. It whole thing started when en aun sent a trading fleet into the IoM. i could tell you more, but my codex isn't on me at the moment.

 Manchu wrote:
The Kroot were not conquered because the Kroot did not resist Tau diplomacy. You could say the same thing about the AdMech. The Emperor did not conquer them because they agreed to his terms. It doesn't mean the Emperor wasn't a conqueror.

Also, your depiction of life under the Tau is based on ... what? You think no one works grueling hours in bad conditions for the Greater Good?

Of course they do. But as taros campaign book pointed out, new equipment is provided and mining tools. It was this technology which enabled taros to increase trade with the Tau.
The Tau isn't the Imperium and subjugation when its not needed is foolish. They compliant world as they follow willingly was well treated and the Taros PDF fought alongside the Tau against the Imperials.

Improved technology and referencing good treatment would suggest an improvement in working conditions.
And what is your depiction of life under the tau based on? That they brutalise those who willingly join with no change to squalid conditions?

I can accept they can be harsh masters as well as generous. That is in essence the The definition of the Greater Good.

 Manchu wrote:
@nomotog,

There's a difference between intent and result.

If you read so much Tau fluff, how are you saying there is only one Tau offensive?

If you read the dex, or even the Lexicanum article, you would know that Tau history is made up of offensive actions to expand their empire. They find a new world and settle it. If people are already there, they invite them to become part of the Tau Empire. If those people say no, the Tau fight them until they submit or no longer exist. And then the Tau settle the world.

The only offensive action I can recall off hand is the nimbrosa campaign. If you recall any others please share.

 Eetion wrote:
I can accept they can be harsh masters as well as generous. That is in essence the The definition of the Greater Good.

Then we agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
The only offensive action I can recall off hand is the nimbrosa campaign. If you recall any others please share.

The First, Second, and Third Expansions, which each comprise many offensive actions.

 Manchu wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
I can accept they can be harsh masters as well as generous. That is in essence the The definition of the Greater Good.

Then we agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
The only offensive action I can recall off hand is the nimbrosa campaign. If you recall any others please share.

The First, Second, and Third Expansions, which each comprise many offensive actions.

Ok stop that. You can't just do an of coarse like that. If you know of one, then say it. if you can't think of any, then you can't think of any. You have been making too many leaps of logic to support your theory.

There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

 Manchu wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
I can accept they can be harsh masters as well as generous. That is in essence the The definition of the Greater Good.

Then we agree.

Then we have our answer. People tolerate the Greater Good and work towards it for the benefits it brings them. Its when this 'covenant' is broken that the attitude of the Tau becomes blurry.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
The only offensive action I can recall off hand is the nimbrosa campaign. If you recall any others please share.

The First, Second, and Third Expansions, which each comprise many offensive actions.

Well we don't know that for sure. They may have been lots of colonies, wars with orks certainly, but can't blame the tau for that one. Likelihood is that a civilisation or 2 was subjugated but nothing concrete, equally a few may have beem nrought in diplomatically. Given that every race iv read about demiutg, kroot, vespid, Nicassar seem to have joined willingly, seems to suggest that diplomatic action is at least tried before subjugation.
Also I'd add typha IV campaign for AI. Although the campaign was conducted to ensure a consolidation of worlds rather than outright aggression.

Honestly, and this is conjecture, I highly doubt they managed to subvert hundreds of Imperial worlds solely by being nice. This is Warhammer we're talking about, not Friendship is Magic.

Either there is subversion or violence somewhere we're not hearing about, and at least the subversion is hinted at times.

As for full blown aggression, it'd be tactically stupid of the Tau to attempt. They don't know the Imperium's real strength, all they know is that every few centuries a huge ass fleet of rainbow marines flies in and blows up some planets they stole. It'd be suicide to ignite a war with the Imperium directly at the moment.

Conquest is conquest. The Tau prefer efficiency. They invite you to join while holding a gun. If you have a gun, too, they invite you to trade instead. And while you're trading, they tell you how awesome the Greater Good is. So we have this illusion that whole planetary populations somehow all decide "forget the God-Emperor, it's the Greater Good for us." But that's not how an Imperial World works. The people don't get to decide. The Water Caste is interacting first and foremost with the Imperial Governor.

Traitorous Imperial Governors like trading with Tau because they think the Tau will let them secede from the Imperium without joining the Tau Empire -- the Tau will let them be free and protect them from the Imperium. The First, Second, and Third Expansions show this isn't the case. Once a planet is isolated from the Imperium, the Imperial Governor loses his bargaining chips. The Tau then forcefully remind him of how awesome the Greater Good is and he "voluntarily" agrees that his subjects would be better off following the Ethereals. Or maybe he just "disappears" and someone who does understand the Greater Good takes his place. And all those Sororitas and Arbites and Ministorum priests, you know the types, who never give up on their Emperor-bothering ways, they would "disappear," too.

Not a single pulse rifle fired (publicly), not a single shas'la fallen in combat. No wasteful losses of the human helpers. Truly, the Greater Good is achieved.

This is how the Tau would prefer to conquer the galaxy. But they live in 40k so it's not going to happen.

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Honestly, and this is conjecture, I highly doubt they managed to subvert hundreds of Imperial worlds solely by being nice. This is Warhammer we're talking about, not Friendship is Magic.

People think they are defending the Tau by calling them "blue friendly people." But you're absolutely right: this is 40k. "Blue friendly people" is insulting. They are violent but not without reason. Then again, the Ultramarines would say that they are violent but not without reason. I guess that makes them blue and friendly, too.

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

The Vespid didn't join willingly, two different sourcebooks now have hinted that the Communion Helm attunes the wearer to the "Tau Worldview". Both the Codex and Deathwatch (and DW mentions the Ordos Xenos straight believe this is the case, not think it may be.)

nomotog wrote:
the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners.

Tau propaganda is very effective, I see.

Those "trading partners" were Imperial worlds. The Tau have no right to defend them ... unless they are "independent worlds subject to the protection of the Tau Empire." How do you think the faithful on those planets felt about the Tau "defending" them? Or did you think an entire planet of the Emperor's subjects would just forget their god and religion and everything else about their whole lives because of a few trinkets from the Water Caste saboteurs?

Tau propaganda is very effective, indeed.

Eetion wrote:Let's analyse Imperials, a citizen can expect quotas and to meet tithes, long hours, on hive worlds mass over crowding, agri worlds, mining worlds backbreaking labour, forgeworlds/industrial worlds smog covered hells.

Now the Tau come in and take control, we know from Taros Campaign that this may be peacefully as well as militarily, It can be assumed that a world which resists would have to be kept on a tighter leash of control while re education occurs, worlds which join through manipulation of trade or diplomacy, change may be welcomed.
The workers may find more recreation hours, they may find new Technology and drones assisting them in their jobs, they may find accomodation and standards of living improved as the Tau go about consolidating their hold on the world. They may hear about the odd disappearence of rabble rousers, but on the whole life may improve.

Meanwhile life on the planet that resisted may have slow progress, human renegades may conduct campaign of guerilla warfare which the fire caste will attempt to put down. Control and monitoring of the resident population would be stepped up. The war brutally put down and the citizens exposed to massive curfews and monitoring.
Maybe even resulting in Genocide and resettlement if the rebellion psists.

It doesn't take much to follow the Greater Good, the imperial citizen may not even realise they follow it, they may just see the benefits of citizenship. Do their job, meet their quotas and go home to have a decent nights sleep.
Or They may actively resist the Tau or sabotage their effortsor even just skim a little off the top of their labours for their own gain.

Life with the Tau would presumably depend upon the circumstances in which each world is subjugated/welcomed. Their is not set answer as their is their no set method of operation.

This is very, very close to my own interpretation.

Although I would add that the Tau do not even wish to just conquer anything and everyone in the neighbourhood. As the BFG rulebook notes, the Tau are quite open to treating other worlds as neutral and leaving them alone rather than forcing every planet they meet to decide for or against them. In cases where a world is openly hostile, I could imagine that conquest is regarded as a necessity, less to further the Empire's expansion but rather to stabilise the region.

In some cases, I could imagine that a world might be regarded as "strategically vital", where the Tau sense of duty and commitment to the Greater Good is stronger than their ideals about peaceful coexistence, in essence prompting them to consider military means against a world even if its inhabitants neither desire war nor unity with them. This would be a part of the shades of grey that I like so much about a franchise like 40k. I would, however, treat this as an exception of the rule, more to showcase what is culturally possible rather than what is their primary modus operandi.

I suppose this ties into what has been said earlier, about individual Ethereals having different ideas about how the Greater Good should be interpreted. There could be those who think that the Greater Good should be forced upon others if they do not accept it by themselves, just like there could be those who would consider such actions a travesty. The internal dissent would not reach levels as extreme as those within the Ecclesiarchy (and surely remain largely hidden from the public eye), but one could say it is a similarly theological issue ... at least if you consider the Greater Good to be a sort of "ersatz religion". The Ethereals certainly have an immense hold and influence on the people, though for the time being I am attributing this to a high level of charisma and ideological indoctrination - similar to what leaders in our own world are sometimes capable of - rather than crude and cliché mind control directed at anyone and everybody.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

The Vespid didn't join willingly, two different sourcebooks now have hinted that the Communion Helm attunes the wearer to the "Tau Worldview". Both the Codex and Deathwatch (and DW mentions the Ordos Xenos straight believe this is the case, not think it may be.)

It wasn't a war though. That's what I was getting at. Assuming they are mind control, I wonder how they convinced them to put them on and what the other vespin where thinking seeing there leaders change.

I think humans live under the Tau because of their ethereal water caste's incredible manipulation skills, they could sell snow to an eskimo.

I think Nanchu has it right, with the Tau probably using brutal tactics of oppression, just like the Imperium. The difference is that the Tau probably do a better job of masking it, being more subtle in their oppression. I remember one short story, I forget the title, where an imperial guard and a space marine survived a Tau attack and were falling back to HQ. Along the way, they found a barn that the Kroot had converted to a meat locker. It turns out half the guard that surrendered were spared, but the other half were quietly taken away and given to the kroot to slaughter.

People do not resist the Tau because they are blind to their ugly side.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It defines their theme.

No, it's just part of their theme. The other part is imperialism. The Tau aren't just alturistic -- there is also the issue that they will kill you if you refuse to be altruistic like them.

Yep.

The Tau are aggressive expansionists. They are smart in that they will always attempt to conquer a world via means that don't involve force, whereas the Imperium will almost always choose force. But that doesn't make them peaceful good guys. The Tau know that taking over Imperial worlds benefits them. They know that if they can subvert the world first, then they only have to fight for it once, instead of twice. The Tauros campaign is a perfect example. The Ethereals knew that the Imperium would react militarily to their interference on that planet. but they wanted the planet's stuff. They didn't care what happened to the people living there, but they pretended like they did, which allowed them to subvert the planet's leadership and cause it to secede willingly.

However, they always knew that the Imperium would fight for it. They simply chose to take the advantage of defending it intact, rather than taking it over by force, then defending the defenses they had already had to destroy.

People should never mistake the Tau for good guys. Like the average Imperial citizen, the average Tau is probably "good". Both the Imperium and the Tau Empire are run by fascist governments relying on fierce nationalism. They both use propaganda heavily. The Tau are just less overtly oppressive.

But there's no freedom in the Tau empire either. It's all an illusion. You are free to be born into a single caste, and live your entire life confined to the roles that caste serves. We will happily provide you with all of the pervasive propaganda that will encompass everything you see and do throughout your entire life, to ensure that you are happy, and believe that you are happy doing exactly what you are supposed to be doing. Because that's exactly what you are doing. What you are supposed to. There is no need for you to aspire to anything higher or different or better, and we certainly won't let you if you do. You will find someone in your own caste, or maybe somebody will be found for you, so that your offspring can also be borne into your caste and carry on your assigned work when you are gone.

Everything in 40K is derivative. That's what makes it so popular, because there is an army for nearly any type. The Tau just happen to have their visual cues taken from Japanese anime robots, and their fluff is derived from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. As in, directly from that book. Five castes in BNW. Five castes in the Tau Empire. Each caste has a very specific job and is biologically engineered to be perfectly suited to that role? Yep. The Tau just do it by not allowing the castes to interbreed. The Earth Caste are the builders because the Empire has ensured that they continue to breed the most ideal traits for that caste. Each caste is conditioned from birth, and this conditioning is constantly reinforced, so that the caste members feel happy in their role, and do not aspire to anything greater.


And, just like Huxley's novel, you have have outliers who have rejected the society's way of life. His name is Farsight. Farsight himself is the perfect evidence that the Tau Empire and The Greater Good are not what they seem. Because once he was free of the Ethereal's yoke, he cast it off and went to do his own thing.


The Tau have two faces with GW. And for good reason. First, there is the literal face. It's the one a lot of Tau fans embrace. That the Tau are the non-grimdark, Good Guys or 40K. It makes them "different" and is an appeal to a lot of fans. Games Workshop never blatantly screws with this image, because they know if they were to do so, it would hurt some of the marketing appeal of the army to certain segments. Players who like the Tau as good guys don't like to accept that they aren't actually good guys. So Games Workshop just leaves all the references to their insidious nature as subtle. After all, they are businessmen first. The Tau may have their dark side, but a fair number of Tau fans buy Tau models to be the good guys. The Tau aren't a high selling army as it is, mostly because of their aesthetic I imagine. Don't mess with the customer base. There's really no reason to.

The other face is the one all the astute readers see. The one I described above, where the Tau Empire, under the leadership of the Ethereals, is hardly "good" at all. By no means are the Tau "evil", but they aren't the shining boy scouts of the setting either. The Tau Empire is oppressive, and aggressive. The "Our way or the railgun" philosophy runs rampant. However, the Greater Good is so pervasive, that most Tau actually believe it is true. That's one of the things about social conditioning. If you can make it encompass everything anyone ever sees or hears, then there's no reason to believe it isn't the truth. And for the Tau players and fans who don't look beneath the surface of the fluff, they believe it too, lol. But, they, like the Tau themselves, have no incentive to look deeper. The Greater Good presents the image they want to believe, so they believe it. For the outsider, the truth is clear.

nomotog wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

The Vespid didn't join willingly, two different sourcebooks now have hinted that the Communion Helm attunes the wearer to the "Tau Worldview". Both the Codex and Deathwatch (and DW mentions the Ordos Xenos straight believe this is the case, not think it may be.)

It wasn't a war though. That's what I was getting at. Assuming they are mind control, I wonder how they convinced them to put them on and what the other vespin where thinking seeing there leaders change.

Vespid are sort-of a hive mind, the leaders are in almost absolute control so it'd be irrelevant what the others think. Its noted that the Vespid communicate on a completely different level than Tau do, so it could've been a simple "switcheroo" of handing them the helmet, they try it on, bam, they belong to us, then they in turn turn the rest.

I should note something here for discussion purposes.

What differentiates Orks, 'Nids, and Chaos from Imperials that refuse to join under any circumstance? Why would the Tau be violent against them but not against another perceived threat that's already said no vehemently? (Usually with gunfire)

 Lynata wrote:
where the Tau sense of duty and commitment to the Greater Good is stronger than their ideals about peaceful coexistence

This seems a bit off. Are you saying the Tau have ideals outside of the Greater Good? Are you saying peaceful coexistence is at odds with the Greater Good? That Tau have to pick one or the other?

If so, I would agree that peaceful co-existence is never what the Tau mean by "Greater Good." They may leave a planet be for now, perhaps because it has little value to them or perhaps because it would be too difficult to conquer at the moment, but should they ever want it and think they can reasonably take it then the "Greater Good" would demand that they take it. Tau history seems to indicate that they see the galaxy in two parts: the Greater Good and everything else. Whatever is desirable will be incorporated. Whatever is undesirable will be ignored or eliminated as necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
What differentiates Orks, 'Nids, and Chaos from Imperials that refuse to join under any circumstance? Why would the Tau be violent against them but not against another perceived threat that's already said no vehemently? (Usually with gunfire)

I admit, I don't understand what you are asking. I would say that the Tau see no moral difference between enemies that refuse the Greater Good. I don't think Tau care about the motivations of other races except as a matter of subverting them to the Tau ideals.

Peaceful coexistence is just one facet of The Greater Good. If they can gain compliance without fighting, that works out to everyone's benefit.

But the compliance is the key. Because it is also part of The Greater Good.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners.

Tau propaganda is very effective, I see.

Those "trading partners" were Imperial worlds. The Tau have no right to defend them ... unless they are "independent worlds subject to the protection of the Tau Empire." How do you think the faithful on those planets felt about the Tau "defending" them? Or did you think an entire planet of the Emperor's subjects would just forget their god and religion and everything else about their whole lives because of a few trinkets from the Water Caste saboteurs?

Tau propaganda is very effective, indeed.

The version I read (There are about 3 version of the story at least. It changes a little every time) said that the IoM barley had any influence before the tau showed up. These are planets on the fringe you know.

Now If you want to know about what happens where there is a conflict, I recall two stories where the population was more divided. That is where you get tau supporters performing demonstrations and attacks on there own. (I would think they would at least get material support, but I haven't seen that.) There is a system in the reach under martial law after tau supporters started rebelling.

I'm saying, they'll be aggressive against foes that no matter what fight them and purge them from a world, but supposedly if an Imperial world resists them nonstop they wouldn't do anything but ignore them?

Also I've found a nice source about raiding human colonies during the Third Sphere Expansion.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/r/rmyr2.pdf

2nd paragraph.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But there's no freedom in the Tau empire either. It's all an illusion.

Exactly! But if you told a Tau this, he'd say "What illusion, gue'vesa? Freedom means serving the Greater Good. Anything else is slavery to yourself." They're aliens, after all. They're not evil just because they don't have a human perspective. The Imperium doesn't destroy alien races because they are evil. The Imperium does what it does because human rule of the galaxy is incompatible with live xenos. The Tau are great proof of that, in their small way.Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But the compliance is the key. Because it is also part of The Greater Good.

The Tau are very much like humanity during the early Great Crusade. Except the Emperor had already spent a long time sorting out human genetics and knew about aliens so he wouldn't tolerate mutants or xenos. But the Tau are like a naive version of the Emperor.

nomotog wrote:
The version I read (There are about 3 version of the story at least. It changes a little every time) said that the IoM barley had any influence before the tau showed up. These are planets on the fringe you know.

Yeah, that is how many rebellions begin. The local governor doesn't want to pay his tithes because he thinks the Imperium does nothing for him or his planet.