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The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

The "pheremone control" concept is a theory. It;s never stated to be a fact, just musings from the Imperium.

BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

The "pheremone control" concept is a theory. It;s never stated to be a fact, just musings from the Imperium.

And your point is?

I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

nomotog wrote:
I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

Subliminal messaging? Hypnosis? Chemical modifiers (drugs)? Propaganda? Indoctrination? Brain implants?

BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

In six pages, no one has suggested they do.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

Subliminal messaging? Hypnosis? Chemical modifiers (drugs)? Propaganda? Indoctrination? Brain implants?

I think it might work best if it was some kind of warp effect because that opens up more options for the tau, but I know a lot of people don't want anything warp anywhere near the tau.

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

Subliminal messaging? Hypnosis? Chemical modifiers (drugs)? Propaganda? Indoctrination? Brain implants?

I think it might work best if it was some kind of warp effect because that opens up more options for the tau, but I know a lot of people don't want anything warp anywhere near the tau.

I thought the Tau didn't have psychic potential (which IMHO effectively rules out the future of a Tau-ruled galaxy, as no psychic potential = no chance of defeating Chaos/Necrons)?

I am surprised that a number of space marine chapters don't join the tau and their greater good I mean there are plenty of examples of chapters turning to chaos for very stupid reasons so why can't a chapter or small force of marines join the greater good????

 GhostKnight31 wrote:
I am surprised that a number of space marine chapters don't join the tau and their greater good I mean there are plenty of examples of chapters turning to chaos for very stupid reasons so why can't a chapter or small force of marines join the greater good????

Because even Chaos-touched Humans still hold aliens in contempt? In 40k, xenophobia is an intrinsic part of being Human, whether you serve the Emperor or the Powers of Chaos.

The Greater Good ideology has basically no common ground with the Space Marine mindset. For SM, their discipline and strength come from pseudo-religious faith in a god-like being. The Greater Good entails a very different kind of faith, something that might be better talked about as trust. The Tau deeply trust one another -- as a species. No Tau is beneath the unity of the Greater Good. In the Imperium, by contrast, no human is above suspicion of heresy. Being a CSM is not so far from being a SM even if they are opposite sides of a coin. The Greater Good is a different coin altogether.


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 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Because even Chaos-touched Humans still hold aliens in contempt?

That, too. A traitor is or at least was a human.

The Imperium would execute/arcoflaggelation/servitor the individul, and in in some cases hunt down anyone associated with him, friends, family etc.

In Relentless Imperial dissenters were attacked and drafted into the Navy against their will.

With Regards to the Greater Good, it appears to be a utopia to outsiders but most imperial citizens won't know that's what it is. They will only knw what they get told about the vile Xenos and I doubt 'The offer a pretty good standard of living' would be high on the Ecclesiarchial sermons of hating Xenos.
Most imperial citizens finding initially see their freedom increase. Sure their are controls and exceptions but on the whole allied races seem to be well treated.

You can bleat on about lack of freedom and the hidden side of the Tau all you like. I put it to you the human would simply not care. The imperium is not fre, it is the most brutal and oppressive regime imaginable. Whatever the ills of Tau society it is a paradise compared to the society of the Imperium of Man.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

Subliminal messaging? Hypnosis? Chemical modifiers (drugs)? Propaganda? Indoctrination? Brain implants?

I think it might work best if it was some kind of warp effect because that opens up more options for the tau, but I know a lot of people don't want anything warp anywhere near the tau.

I thought the Tau didn't have psychic potential (which IMHO effectively rules out the future of a Tau-ruled galaxy, as no psychic potential = no chance of defeating Chaos/Necrons)?

True, it's actually well established too. There is even a little blurb in deathwatch about using a blank to test is aun have psychic powers. It states in a matter of fact way that the blank would have no effect on the aun.

You can deal with necrons by shooting them, and one theory is that a tau ruled galaxy would starve chaos. (Personally I don't agree with that one.)


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 GhostKnight31 wrote:
I am surprised that a number of space marine chapters don't join the tau and their greater good I mean there are plenty of examples of chapters turning to chaos for very stupid reasons so why can't a chapter or small force of marines join the greater good????

Because SM are too angry to fit. The line I love comes from DoW dark crusade. "The greater good is coming at you from my bolter alien." SMs really don't have anything to gain from joining the tau when you think about it. Oh the other hand, I can seen a lot of GW fluff that puts the tau and SM farlly close to buddy buddy. They even made them battle brothers on the matrix.

nomotog wrote:
...tau ruled galaxy would starve chaos. (Personally I don't agree with that one.)

Like the Imperial Truth? It won't work; IMHO, the Imperial Truth's goal wasn't to starve Chaos, it was to reduce their influence in the material realm by creating a passive 'psychic sheath' in the Warp due to their disbelief in gods and the supernatural while the Emperor personally destroyed it/held it back with his psychic powers, at least until all Humans had developed psychic powers of their own and the mental strength necessary to resist Chaotic influence/daemonic possession under normal circumstances.

Oh the other hand, I can seen a lot of GW fluff that puts the tau and SM farlly close to buddy buddy. They even made them battle brothers on the matrix.

That sounds pretty stupid. Who wrote this crap?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:
...tau ruled galaxy would starve chaos. (Personally I don't agree with that one.)

Like the Imperial Truth? It won't work; IMHO, the Imperial Truth's goal wasn't to starve Chaos, it was to reduce their influence in the material realm by creating a passive 'psychic sheath' in the Warp due to their disbelief in gods and the supernatural while the Emperor personally destroyed it/held it back with his psychic powers, at least until all Humans had developed psychic powers of their own and the mental strength necessary to resist Chaotic influence/daemonic possession under normal circumstances.

Oh the other hand, I can seen a lot of GW fluff that puts the tau and SM farlly close to buddy buddy. They even made them battle brothers on the matrix.

That sounds pretty stupid. Who wrote this crap?

Not like the Imperial Truth. The idea follows the assumption that tau are immune to chaos. It's an assumption I don't agree with myself.

I think it was mat ward who made the tau and SMs buddy. I didn't read the exact passage myself. (Fun note, there is a picture of a Iron hand and a tau diplomat in the tau codex. It refers to some diplomatic talks that the tau and IoM did.)

Humans in 40K are worth their weight in dust, thats the cold hard truth. It even said on the 1st page of the 5th brb that if ur a human, theres billions upon billions others like you so dont get ur hopes up. Live, serve, die.
Now serving is easy, the Imperium is basically a dark utopian future x infinite. The government has forced conscription (PDF,IG,etc), the social segregation is Please don't circumvent the word filter! Thanks! ~Manchu infinite and well human lives are worth much. Dying is way easier than that.
But living, that's the hard part. The emperor's grace doesn't worth much if an orks gonna smash ur face in, or a DE gonna rape ur face now is it. If joining the tau can give you safety, ur gonna go for it.
Plus while imperium is all super hardcore dictatorship where society dont give 2 Please don't circumvent the word filter! Thanks! ~Manchu about u. Tau on the other hand are super relaxed dictatorship where society actually respects what you do whose morals are a fresh change compared to Imperium.
Eldar too much ego to join them for long, chaos won't join them for long, etc.
Tau as a race can only really attract normal humans cuz well normal humans are poor bastards. Apart from that, other races just arent cut out for the tau.

nomotog wrote:


Not like the Imperial Truth. The idea follows the assumption that tau are immune to chaos. It's an assumption I don't agree with myself.

Yeah, immune to Chaos my ass. Just because you don't have psychic power/potential doesn't mean you're immune to psychic/sorcerous attack, much less butthurt by Daemons.

I think it was mat ward who made the tau and SMs buddy. I didn't read the exact passage myself. (Fun note, there is a picture of a Iron hand and a tau diplomat in the tau codex. It refers to some diplomatic talks that the tau and IoM did.)

Idiocy.

 Eetion wrote:
With Regards to the Greater Good, it appears to be a utopia to outsiders

Good points bolded. Arguably, only Ordo Xenos Inquisitors have any meaningful insight into the utter alienness of the Tau mind -- and even they must be wary of such taint. Try to understand the Imeprial perspective: Your average pig-ignorant Imperial subject responds only to pain and the absence of pain if left to his own devices. Luckily, the Ecclesiarchy provides him with a simple catechism: hate the alien. The average Imperial subject himself would have difficulty coming to the truth of this creed by himself. By nature, he only longs for his own individual comfort with no thought to the demands of his species. This blinkered view is all too often found in more prestigious rungs of society as well, even including certain planetary governors. Their short-sightedness would doom humanity to slavery all in pursuit of the illusion of freedom. There is no such thing as freedom -- only dominance and slavery. If humanity is not dominant then it will inevitably be enslaved. But even in dominance, mankind is not free. Can you imagine how a Ministorum priest would respond to the demand for freedom? "Bow down before the Emperor, heretic!"

And it seems the Imperium is right. Humanity will never be co-equal partners in the Greater Good. Wherever they defect to the Tau, humans will be a client people. They will labor for their alien masters to incomprehensible alien ends. How is this different from their incomprehension of the Master of Mankind? Consider this: you may treat your dog well, but your dog will never be a person. Conversely, you may treat a person like a dog -- but he is still a person. The Emperor himself, although a god, is or was (Ecclesiarchical doctrine is unclear) a human being. A incalcuably powerful human being, but human nonetheless. That is why he is a symbol of hope and unity to even the most wretched Imperial subjects. Humanity can serve the Emperor because it is right and just to do so. He is one of us, but clearly he is also the very best of us -- no other human can ever be his equal, for this man is also a god. He is the Master of Humanity and he stands with and for humanity. Contrast this to the alien overlord. No matter how carefully the alien tends its human livestock, there will always be an unbridgable gap between them -- a void even wider than the distance between mortality and divinity.

The Tau are a fascinating people. GW did an excellent job with them. Their basic premise is, what if there was a race that could function in a psychologically healthy way under a totalitarian system? The Imperium is a fictional declaration that human beings cannot do this. But the Tau are not human; perhaps their alien minds would find nothing oppressive about that way of life. Perhaps their minds are best suited to such an existence, such that when it was pointed out to them by the Ethereals, they could not help but find it compelling. Perhaps it is natural to them. But what is natural to them is alien to us.

Simply put: for the freedom of the Human race itself, the individual Human must sacrifice his/her freedom.

nomotog wrote:
(Fun note, there is a picture of a Iron hand and a tau diplomat in the tau codex. It refers to some diplomatic talks that the tau and IoM did.)

Where? Are you thinking of the picture of the Imperial Fist and the Imperial functionary talking with a Fire Caste officer in the Tau Empire codex?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Simply put: for the freedom of the Human race itself, the individual Human must sacrifice his/her freedom.

Kind of, except replace the first use of "freedom" there with the word "dominance" or "survival." Among Inquisitors, this is the orthodox position -- called Puritan Monodominance.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:


Not like the Imperial Truth. The idea follows the assumption that tau are immune to chaos. It's an assumption I don't agree with myself.

Yeah, immune to Chaos my ass. Just because you don't have psychic power/potential doesn't mean you're immune to psychic/sorcerous attack, much less butthurt by Daemons.

I know. It's one of a few things that everyone seems gets wrong about the tau. They think that they are blanks or immune to chaos. Granted there is only one tau yet to have been under the influence of a chaos god and most people never hear about him.


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 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
(Fun note, there is a picture of a Iron hand and a tau diplomat in the tau codex. It refers to some diplomatic talks that the tau and IoM did.)

Where? Are you thinking of the picture of the Imperial Fist and the Imperial functionary talking with a Fire Caste officer in the Tau Empire codex

That is the picture. It is the imperial fist. (I am not too knowledgeable on SM chapters.) I'm quite sure that is a diplomat though. Let me see if I can find the picture and confirm.

Tau Empire, page 11.

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Simply put: for the freedom of the Human race itself, the individual Human must sacrifice his/her freedom.

Kind of, except replace the first use of "freedom" there with the word "dominance" or "survival."

Human dominance and survival in 40k pretty much equals freedom for the species as a whole, regardless of the individual cost. Besides, individual freedom's not worth much if you end up getting your entire species killed/enslaved in the process.

Among Inquisitors, this is the orthodox position -- called Puritan Monodominance.

I was under the impression that Mono-Dominants were considered extremists by their fellow Puritans, the Amalathians and the Thorians, as they also seek the elimination of all psychic and mutant influence in the Imperium, completely ignoring the fact that the Emperor himself is the mightiest psyker to ever exist, and without Sanctioned Psykers (Astropaths, Librarians, Grey Knights, etc.) and Navigators, FTL travel and communications not to mention effective anti-Chaos tactics would be virtually impossible.

nomotog wrote:


I know. It's one of a few things that everyone seems gets wrong about the tau. They think that they are blanks or immune to chaos. Granted there is only one tau yet to have been under the influence of a chaos god and most people never hear about him.

There was? I've never heard of him, who?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I was under the impression that Mono-Dominants were considered extremists by their fellow Puritans, the Amalathians and the Thorians

True but that is a matter of Inquisitorial politics and an issue far above Imperium-wide values. Consider the goal of the Great Crusade -- it was monodominance. Consider the credo of the Ecclesiarchy -- it is monodominance. Monodominance is the overriding priority. The vagueries of human mutation can be left to the other Puritans.

Humanity is the most dangerous race in 40k. The Orks may be more violent. The Tyranids may be more implaccable. The Eldar may be more skilled. But only Mankind has the sheer, ruthless will to dominate the galaxy. To the Orks, the galaxy is just a huge barroom brawl. For the Tyranids, it's just a meal. The Eldar see it by turns as a hedonistic playground, a lost hope, or a mirthless joke. Humanity looks across the galaxy and sees an empire that is rightfully theirs. The Tau are dangerous, despite their youth and their tiny holdings, simply because they share with humanity the urge to rule the stars. But the wisest minds of the Imperium know there can only be one ruler. They are determined that it will not be the xenos.

The true horror of the Imperium is not the terrible conditions; rather the true horror is that, in the 40k setting, the Imperium is honestly the very best humanity can do -- and what it must do to even so much as survive. The worst monster of 40k is the human being. And in 40k, the worst monsters are in charge.

Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:


I know. It's one of a few things that everyone seems gets wrong about the tau. They think that they are blanks or immune to chaos. Granted there is only one tau yet to have been under the influence of a chaos god and most people never hear about him.

There was? I've never heard of him, who?

Shas'ui'T'au'Kais he is the character from fire warrior.

Some people also speculate that Farsight is under the influence of Chaos via the Dawn Blade.

Humanity is the most dangerous race in 40k. The Orks may be more violent. The Tyranids may be more implaccable. The Eldar may be more skilled. But only Mankind has the sheer, ruthless will to dominate the galaxy. To the Orks, the galaxy is just a huge barroom brawl. For the Tyranids, it's just a meal. The Eldar see it by turns as a hedonistic playground, a lost hope, or a mirthless joke. Humanity looks across the galaxy and sees an empire that is rightfully theirs. The Tau are dangerous, despite their youth and their tiny holdings, simply because they share with humanity the urge to rule the stars. But the wisest minds of the Imperium know there can only be one ruler. They are determined that it will not be the xenos.

So both the Tau and Humans both see the galaxy as something to be conquered. While this is a dangerous mind-set in itself, what makes Humans even more dangerous is that they have decided to selfishly claim it for themselves and themselves alone. 40k aside, this view of Human nature is actually quite realistic. IRL, if we actually make contact with alien life, its very likely said alien life would be beyond our understanding. And Humans will and always fear the unknown. Its very likely we might actually end up creating a real-life version of the Imperium, simply because that's our natural response to something we cannot understand (aliens) and something we want to obtain (the stars).

 Manchu wrote:


The true horror of the Imperium is not the terrible conditions; rather the true horror is that, in the 40k setting, the Imperium is honestly the very best humanity can do -- and what it must do to even so much as survive. The worst monster of 40k is the human being. And in 40k, the worst monsters are in charge.

Worse still, turning the species into monsters is the only way for the species to ultimately survive.

We don't know. This is just a fairy tale, albeit a horrific one. Best not to try and use 40k as a lens to investigate IRL issues.

Some battle suit pilots also suffer form a neurological condition that looks a lot like korn influence.

 Manchu wrote:
Some people also speculate that Farsight is under the influence of Chaos via the Dawn Blade.

Alternatively, the ruins wherein the Dawn Blade was found made him realize how cruel the galaxy really was, and together with the hardships he and his soldiers went through, made him realize how the Greater Good and the Ethereals would ultimately be counter-productive to the Tau as a species.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Some people also speculate that Farsight is under the influence of Chaos via the Dawn Blade.

Alternatively, the ruins wherein the Dawn Blade was found made him realize how cruel the galaxy really was, and together with the hardships he and his soldiers went through, made him realize how the Greater Good and the Ethereals would ultimately be counter-productive to the Tau as a species.

Na he thought that before he even found the blade.