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 Admiral Valerian wrote:
...is that it?

HH Book 1 Betrayal isn't that specific.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

The myth gets reinforced by the parallel battle over whether one can use FW units in regular 40k.

You can't?

Let's not talk about it. If you want read up on that, see these threads:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/477448.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/495777.page

... and many others.

nomotog wrote:
The tau where divided into sub species before the aun showed up.

No, the Tau had different cultures broadly similar to what became the Castes.

nomotog wrote:
When the aun united the tau, they implemented the cast system to preserve a system that was already in place.

No, the Ethereals implemented the Caste system to end the war by showing how the various specialized cultures could cooperate.

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
...is that it?

HH Book 1 Betrayal isn't that specific.

Well, given what other material we have from that period of Imperial history, we can at least assume the Emperor was very subtle with whatever he did, compared to Cardinal Tang and the other warlords.

Not much about the Unification Wars seems subtle. But you're right that the Emperor did understand PR (for example, how he eventually won over the Albians).

Admiral Valerian wrote:

Isn't Forge World, well, less reliable than even Black Library?

Nah.

Forge World has a cohesive editorial vision and works in a small team closely with GW and a somewhat effective editorial review. The Black Library authors are all freelance, more or less, and write their novels based on concepts that they pitch to the Black Library based on a loose framework.

That's why the Heresy Novels are pretty varied in their quality, and so many characters have the interesting ability to be pretty much anywhere in the galaxy they need to be at the exact given moment that it is appropriate to the storyline, lol.

 Manchu wrote:
Not much about the Unification Wars seems subtle.

Well, if we accept the Emperor rebuilding the baseline Human species, no one seemed to notice they were being tampered with. Apart from mutants of course.

But you're right that the Emperor did understand PR (for example, how he eventually won over the Albians).

The man has always struck me as very charismatic, if not very diplomatic. Well, that's to be expected from an immortal with godlike psychic might and intellect.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Black Library authors are all freelance, more or less, and write their novels based on concepts that they pitch to the Black Library based on a loose framework.

Although we should keep in mind that BL's HH series seems to have the most editorial oversight in the history of their publications.

For Tau fans, we're left with BL novels like Fire Warrior.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
no one seemed to notice they were being tampered with

We don't know that.

 Manchu wrote:
We don't know that.

For now, with the Horus Heresy series still incomplete

 Manchu wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Black Library authors are all freelance, more or less, and write their novels based on concepts that they pitch to the Black Library based on a loose framework.

Although we should keep in mind that BL's HH series seems to have the most editorial oversight in the history of their publications.

For Tau fans, we're left with BL novels like Fire Warrior.

Fire warrior is like the bible for hard core tau fans. (Harder core then me anyway.) It's one of a very few books that take place from the view of the tau and gives a lot of information about tau society.

 Manchu wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Black Library authors are all freelance, more or less, and write their novels based on concepts that they pitch to the Black Library based on a loose framework.

Although we should keep in mind that BL's HH series seems to have the most editorial oversight in the history of their publications.

Haha.

That's really just a bad sign for the rest of the books, not so much a plus for the Heresy. I think the problem for the Heresy series is that they are producing too much work, and the editing is suffering for it. Their attempt to keep a constant supply of new material is hurting the individual quality of the works. Plus, they've brought the timeline to a stall (since the first three novels covered 80% of the original timeline) and now everything is just filler.

nomotog wrote:
Fire warrior is like the bible for hard core tau fans.

I'm not saying it "doesn't count." I'm just saying it's not my favorite.

I must say, this is one of the most interesting Threads on Tau culture interaction I've seen, that hasn't also gotten locked due to flame-warring.

Subscribed.

 Manchu wrote:


And it seems the Imperium is right. Humanity will never be co-equal partners in the Greater Good. Wherever they defect to the Tau, humans will be a client people. They will labor for their alien masters to incomprehensible alien ends. How is this different from their incomprehension of the Master of Mankind? Consider this: you may treat your dog well, but your dog will never be a person. Conversely, you may treat a person like a dog -- but he is still a person. The Emperor himself, although a god, is or was (Ecclesiarchical doctrine is unclear) a human being. A incalcuably powerful human being, but human nonetheless. That is why he is a symbol of hope and unity to even the most wretched Imperial subjects. Humanity can serve the Emperor because it is right and just to do so. He is one of us, but clearly he is also the very best of us -- no other human can ever be his equal, for this man is also a god. He is the Master of Humanity and he stands with and for humanity. Contrast this to the alien overlord. No matter how carefully the alien tends its human livestock, there will always be an unbridgable gap between them -- a void even wider than the distance between mortality and divinity.

Where are you getting this all from? This seems to be the way you would like them to be. There seems to be more proof the Tau actually do get along with other races and respect them.

Please, KC, read carefully: my argument is not that the Tau cannot get along with other races but rather that humanity cannot.

KamikazeCanuck wrote: There seems to be more proof the Tau actually do get along with other races and respect them.

Mind sharing it?

The Tau arguments are all speculation. And when you look at guys like Kroothawk and how he puts forth his material, it's all based on a strong desire for the Tau to be a certain way, and not based on anything concrete. So saying the counterargument is the same way seems a bit pointless.

Like I said earlier, there's the Surface Image Tau, which some people accept at face value. And then there is the deep contextual reading Tau which others subscribe to.

But since there is no Definitive Tau, it's all speculation.

 Manchu wrote:
Please, KC, read carefully: my argument is not that the Tau cannot get along with other races but rather that humanity cannot.

Oh, alright then. But is it really Humanity or just the Imperium?

If we magically switched the power levels of the two Empires you don't think a Tau Empire of a million worlds could have a functional Human minority within it? Humans are just troublemakers that way?

Yes, I think that is a cornerstone of the setting. Like I said, the horror of 40k isn't just that "oh look how bad it is" but rather "this is the best humanity can do."

So, as a hypothetical, imagine that every human in the galaxy immediately submitted to the Greater Good and joined the Tau Empire. It wouldn't take very long before they had slaughtered all the Tau, except for a few Ethereal kept in Golden Thrones, and built the Ecclesiarchy of the Greater Good.

 Manchu wrote:
Yes, I think that is a cornerstone of the setting. Like I said, the horror of 40k isn't just that "oh look how bad it is" but rather "this is the best humanity can do."

So, as a hypothetical, imagine that every human in the galaxy immediately submitted to the Greater Good and joined the Tau Empire. It wouldn't take very long before they had slaughtered all the Tau, except for a few Ethereal kept in Golden Thrones, and built the Ecclesiarchy of the Greater Good.

Yes, that does sound like us...

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
The tau where divided into sub species before the aun showed up.

No, the Tau had different cultures broadly similar to what became the Castes.

nomotog wrote:
When the aun united the tau, they implemented the cast system to preserve a system that was already in place.

No, the Ethereals implemented the Caste system to end the war by showing how the various specialized cultures could cooperate.

Seems you insist on ignoring the Codex.

1.) The structure of the Tau species.
Summary: At the beginning the Tau species develops into several sub-species or races that show clear morphological differences like e.g. wings on the mountain peak tribes (page 5 of Codex tau Empire, "Advanced Evolution"). Races in the biological sense are parts of a species that form a distinct gene-pool that is partially separated from the rest and develops morphological differences. Races can mix in principle, up to the point where they cease to be a distinct race. In the case of the Tau, the existing races with separate gene-pools were called castes by the ethereals (page 6, last paragraph of "The Ethereals") and cross-breeding forbidden as a center part of ending the war and create a functioning peaceful society. So the Tau tribes were attributed an element and thereafter called Fire caste etc. . No humans were or are part of said Tau tribes, so are not members of those castes.
"It was decreed that from that day forth each of the tribes would be known by the element that most befitted its role for the Greater Good. (...) while the warriors of the plains would be known as the Fire caste." (page6)
"The Caste system: As decreed by the Ethereals, Tau society is divided into four castes, each based on one of the four elements of nature. Tau are born into their caste and breeding between the castes is forbidden by the Ethereals. (...) The Fire caste are the warriors of theTau.(...) Centuries of selective breeding has led to the Fire caste being the biggest and strongest of the Tau." (page 8)
In other words, Fire caste members are members of the Tau race (or rather species in the biological sense). As humans, Kroot, Vespids and Demiurg are not members of the Tau race, they can't become the biggest and strongest of the Tau, as all Fire caste members are. So it is proven that only Tau are members of the 5 castes.

2.) On Kroot:
"At the sacred Oathstone on Pech, Anghkor Prok swore allegiance to the Tau empire and pledged his warriors to the Greater Good, marking a period of cooperation between the races that lasted to the present day." (page 14, emphasize by me)
"The Kroot live in family groups known as kindreds ..."
More info in "Index Xenos: The Kroot" by Graham McNeill, originally in WD, reprinted in Kodex Kroot:
http://www.chaosfactor.org/images/5th_ed_kroot_mercenaries_army_list_by_kompletely_kroot_V5.83.pdf

So much for now.

The Tau evolve rapidly but their Mont'au-era divergence is not equivalent to the Caste system. You only need to think of those wings you mentioned; they don't have those anymore, do they? The Caste system was not merely a codification of pre-Ethereal evolution. First of all, it's a social rather than biological division. Caste determines what you do; what you do determines the evolution. Tau who don't fly on thermal currents but instead in aircraft no longer need wings. Therefore, the Tau of the Air Caste do not have wings. This social-eugenic process is not unique to the Tau. For example, the esoteric marriage law of the Navigator Houses ensures that the next generation will have warp eyes. The Caste system could be applied to other races as well -- though it would likely yield physiological results more slowly with humans. And the Castes themselves did not pre-exist the Ethereals, as Codex: Tau Empire makes clear: "Beneath a maiden moon of clearest white, they began to speak, explaining that the talents of each of the tribes could be harnessed." (p. 6) The Tau of the Mont'au were neither races nor castes -- they were tribes. The description of Tau history on pp. 4 - 5 speaks of one Tau race divided into tribes. The word "caste" only appears after the Ethereals introduce the ideal of the Greater Good. Thus the Caste system was established to pursue the Greater Good and castes did not exist before then.

As to the Kroot, I'm not sure what point you're aiming at with those quotations. The point you made before was that the Tau "never even tried" to introduce the Caste system on the Kroot or any other race. So those quotes aren't going to do it ...

As far as the relationship between the Tau and their client races, see the first paragraph on page 8. The clients are described as "alien subjects .. granted roles of responsibility in Tau society" where "a small number" of them, the Tau hoped, "might one day come to recognise the Greater Good, and bow down to the Ethereals." Meanwhile, according to their own POV, "the Tau would be first among equals."

You can take it 4 ways

Tau are benevelent yet arrogant masters, they offer little freedom(more than IoM) and a high quality of living

Tau are benevolent, until you cross them. They will be your friend, but if you threaten the community in any way, your dead.

Tau are using everybody as tools, but they like keeping their tools nice and shiny, but if the handle has a splinter in it it will be removed and the other parts will not know the difference

The Tau use mind control to supress everyone, no matter if they truely believe or not. They murder people to feed the kroot, and will destroy populations if it suits the "greater good"

Again:
Before the appearance of the ethereals, there were 4 separate gene-pools with very specific morphological differences. These gene-pools were called tribes at that time. When the ethereals appeared, they called these gene-pools castes, added themself as a fifth gene-pool and formed a society structure where cross breeding is forbidden to guarantee the persistence of said gene-pools. The Codex is plastered with explicit statements, that this caste structure is for the Tau race only.

Yes, there is no explicit text saying that Tau did not try to transform all Kroot into frogs, radio receivers, catgirls, caste members or a slice of bread. Because the context makes it clear that all this is absurd. Esp. as it is a cooperation between two races and not one race subjugating the other. And the Kroot society is based on family kindreds guided by shapers with almost no breeding restrictions (some members may be tainted by Chaos or Genestealers), not a caste structure.

Kroothawk wrote: cross-breeding forbidden as a center part of ending the war and create a functioning peaceful society.

This is entirely invented. There was no need to forbid cross breeding to end the war. If anything, intermingling the castes creates a more homogenous society and allows for a reduction of the typical sociological barriers that having an "us" and a "them" in a society creates.

No, the only reason you would forbid intermixing in a genetically compatible population would be to enhance and prefer specific traits. Just like dog and horse breeders do. In this case, the Ethereals are simply breeding Tau subspecies that are biologically advantaged for certain tasks and predisposed to certain traits and behaviors.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Kroothawk wrote: cross-breeding forbidden as a center part of ending the war and create a functioning peaceful society.

This is entirely invented. There was no need to forbid cross breeding to end the war. If anything, intermingling the castes creates a more homogenous society and allows for a reduction of the typical sociological barriers that having an "us" and a "them" in a society creates.

No, the only reason you would forbid intermixing in a genetically compatible population would be to enhance and prefer specific traits. Just like dog and horse breeders do. In this case, the Ethereals are simply breeding Tau subspecies that are biologically advantaged for certain tasks and predisposed to certain traits and behaviors.

This is true. You just have to keep in mind that these differences already existed before they started. Off hand, I can't think of any bits of fluff that point to any kind of selective breeding among cast members. Like no aun has ever tried to cross breed farsght with shadowsun like a dog breeder would try and do. It is a very popular theory though.

 Kroothawk wrote:
The Codex is plastered with explicit statements, that this caste structure is for the Tau race only.

If this was true then either of us could post at least one quotation supporting it. Since it is false, neither of us can.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Yes, there is no explicit text saying that Tau did not try to transform all Kroot into frogs

Whether the Tau tried to introduce the caste system to any of its client races is nothing like whether they tried to turn Kroots into frogs. What you are trying to argue here is called the "Chewbacca defense," It means, you don't have an argument so you just say ridiculous things and act like you're right. Actual arguments rely on backing claims with evidence and logic. You made the claim that the Tau never even tried to introduce the Caste system to any other race. You have been unable to back that claim with any quotations from any published material. Your krootfrogs and catgirls argument shows you can't even back it up with logic.

I think the burden on proof is on you Manchu. You have to prove something is the way you claim. Pretty sure you're asking someone to prove a negative.

Manchu the tau don't force the kroot or anyone (other then tau) in to castes. There is no evidence of it. It even hard to think of a reason why they would do it in the first place. We know how kroot society works and it works the same before and after they ally with the tau.

How do you even picture that working anyway? Like would the kroot be put in th fire caste? Or maybe some kind of kroot caste?

They don't even let other Tau of other castes join castes they are not born into. Why would they let some funny looking aliens join up?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I think the burden on proof is on you Manchu.

Think again, KC. Kroothawk said the Tau never tried to introduce the Caste system to any other race. My claim is that we don't know. Kroothawk has put himself in the position of proving a negative by making that claim. If the claim is unprovable, then it is something -- like I said -- that we don't know.

nomotog wrote:
Manchu the tau don't force the kroot or anyone (other then tau) in to castes.

I am not saying that they have done so. My point is that they could do so. There is nothing about the Caste system that makes it impossible to apply to, for example, humans.

Yes there is. You have to be born into the Caste. Only Tau are born into the Caste.

If there's a caste for aliens it would be something for the whole species. The "Kroot Caste" for example. However. I don't think that's actually written down somewhere. It's just the way the Tau mind works. A kind of benign speciesism.

If there there is no proof and all you say is we don't know, then why are you saying it at all?