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 BaronIveagh wrote:

Also interesting was that on at least one tau controlled world in the Damocles Gulf, it's considered normal for humans to have tau first names and human family names. The implication being that the humans integrate extensively into tau culture.

In other words, they assimilate Humans, re-writing them into Tau in Human skins.

There's also some inquisitorial speculation that Tau convince mutants and psykers to use their powers for the greater good, but no evidence is presented.

The latter is insane. Even pre-Heresy Magnus would balk at the idea of letting psykers freely use their powers without appropriate training. The former is just going to bring Imperial blood to a low boil.

There's a few problems with the above statement, one is that Oldcrons did, in fact, have their own FTL. Newcrons however use the webway.

BFG's still valid, so their fleet still appears to have the Inertia-less Drive. Maybe its only a problem of FTL for non-fleet forces.

Tau do have a form of FTL that involves skimming along the barrier between worlds. As of IA 3, they have discovered a way to do this at similar speeds and distances to Imperial ships traveling the warp, which is used in their newer ships classes.

Good for them; is it equally as fast though? And what of FTL communications?

A good IRL example to all this would be Napoleon imo. Despite being quite tyrannical and militant himself, he nonetheless espoused a liberation ideology that appealed to the downtrodden and persecuted of Europe: Poles, Prussian Catholics, Hungarians, Jews, and so on. These people were willing to work with Napoleon and tolerate the French more or less acting as their overlords as the self-determination Napoleon gave them was better then the current status quo.

This is the same reason why Gues'eva exist.

If you want to be more grimdark about it, Baltic/Russian/Ukrainian Waffen SS fighting against the Soviets would also count....Though that made far less rational sense as Nazi ideology openly espoused the destruction of these people. But hell, maybe the Tau plan to genocide non-Tau someday also, though currently there's nothing in the fluff to support this theory. Kroot/Vespid seem pretty well off.

 Harriticus wrote:
A good IRL example to all this would be Napoleon imo. Despite being quite tyrannical and militant himself, he nonetheless espoused a liberation ideology that appealed to the downtrodden and persecuted of Europe: Poles, Prussian Catholics, Hungarians, Jews, and so on. These people were willing to work with Napoleon and tolerate the French more or less acting as their overlords as the self-determination Napoleon gave them was better then the current status quo.

This is the same reason why Gues'eva exist.

I recall Napoleon being broken by the Russian campaign too. I can't wait for the Tau to arrogantly launch a full-scale invasion. The Imperium will do to them what the Russians did to the French.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Imperium will do to them what the Russians did to the French.

Lose horribly repeatedly, give up all kinds of ground and then stake everything on a single massive battle, which you then lose? Remember that Borodino was a victory only in that the Russian army escaped because Napoleon refused to commit his reserves to crush them utterly.

Or do you mean that The Imperium will lose horribly and then be saved by the tau failing to plan for local conditions at all and have a storm sent by the Emperor save them? That last one sounds about right for GW...

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Or do you mean that The Imperium will lose horribly and then be saved by the tau failing to plan for local conditions at all and have a storm sent by the Emperor save them? That last one sounds about right for GW...

Maybe...but more likely the Tau get overstretched and their supply lines are cut by newly-arriving/deploying Adeptus Astartes while their troops already on the front will get surrounded and crushed 10,000 to 1 by fresh Imperial armies. The Imperium is VAST. Its sheer size is an asset against a sustained invasion.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Or do you mean that The Imperium will lose horribly and then be saved by the tau failing to plan for local conditions at all and have a storm sent by the Emperor save them? That last one sounds about right for GW...

Maybe...but more likely the Tau get overstretched and their supply lines are cut by newly-arriving/deploying Adeptus Astartes while their troops already on the front will get surrounded and crushed 10,000 to 1 by fresh Imperial armies. The Imperium is VAST. Its sheer size is an asset against a sustained invasion.

The Tau are opportunistic. You wouldn't see that sort of invasion unless the Tau had a good reason to believe they could win it. The Two events that I can picture off the top of my head that would have them give it a whirl would be Leviathan cutting off Ultima Segmentum from the rest of the Imperium (leading to events similar to the events surrounding the Nova Terra Interregnum), or the Astronomicon failing. That last one would allow the Tau to effectively dominate the Imperium in space, as current IN planning works a lot like IG planning, ie the locals hold on while reinforcements are ferried in from outside. The typical sector fleet only runs about 60-100 combat ready ships. If unable to reenforce, or, god help them, already gone over to the Tau (ships have done this) this means that the Tau would pretty much have the run of space. Without a navigator's ability to detect the astronomion, ships would be only able to make very short warp jumps, no more than a few days travel.

Basically it would be a total inversion of the situation between the Tau and the IN at the beginning of the Damocles Gulf Crusade.

If that were the case, then its only a matter of time before the entire XIII Legion re-assembles across Ultima Segmentum at Ultramar. Even if the Emperor's dead, the Ultramarines aren't just going to let the Tau walk in and claim the whole place. We're going to be seeing a repeat of the latter part of the Horus Heresy, with the XIII Legion holding down the whole of Ultima Segmentum against Horus' forces, only against Tau instead of against traitors.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
If that were the case, then its only a matter of time before the entire XIII Legion re-assembles across Ultima Segmentum at Ultramar. Even if the Emperor's dead, the Ultramarines aren't just going to let the Tau walk in and claim the whole place. We're going to be seeing a repeat of the latter part of the Horus Heresy, with the XIII Legion holding down the whole of Ultima Segmentum against Horus' forces, only with Tau instead of traitors.

How would they get anywhere? Even Space Marines need navigators, and in the few instances where Librarians guide ships, they still have to find the Astronomicon to navigate the warp. (Note, the astronomicon failing and the death of the Emperor are not the same things, btw)

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
If that were the case, then its only a matter of time before the entire XIII Legion re-assembles across Ultima Segmentum at Ultramar. Even if the Emperor's dead, the Ultramarines aren't just going to let the Tau walk in and claim the whole place. We're going to be seeing a repeat of the latter part of the Horus Heresy, with the XIII Legion holding down the whole of Ultima Segmentum against Horus' forces, only with Tau instead of traitors.

How would they get anywhere? Even Space Marines need navigators, and in the few instances where Librarians guide ships, they still have to find the Astronomicon to navigate the warp. (Note, the astronomicon failing and the death of the Emperor are not the same things, btw)

They've done it before. Towards the latter part of the Horus Heresy, Ultima Segmentum was cut off from Terra by mighty Warp storms conjured by the traitors to keep or delay Guilliman and the XIII Legion from getting to Terra. Calth and other events had significantly reduced the XIII Legion's numbers, but they were still the largest of them all; Horus didn't want that huge force anywhere near Terra.

Because their dumb enough to think that the Tau care about them anymore than a dark eldar or a tyranid, really the Tau just use usefull idiots as human sandbags while taking the glory for themselves. Joining the greater good is like being a dog at the pound, where if someone loves you enough they'll take you home and castrate you, thankyou i'd much rather have my soul fed to the Emperor or the Chaos Gods.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Because their dumb enough to think that the Tau care about them anymore than a dark eldar or a tyranid, really the Tau just use usefull idiots as human sandbags while taking the glory for themselves. Joining the greater good is like being a dog at the pound, where if someone loves you enough they'll take you home and castrate you, thankyou i'd much rather have my soul fed to the Emperor or the Chaos Gods.

AMEN, brother! Being Human is the best, whether you serve the Emperor or the Gods of Chaos!

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

They've done it before. Towards the latter part of the Horus Heresy, Ultima Segmentum was cut off from Terra by mighty Warp storms conjured by the traitors to keep or delay Guilliman and the XIII Legion from getting to Terra. Calth and other events had significantly reduced the XIII Legion's numbers, but they were still the largest of them all; Horus didn't want that huge force anywhere near Terra.

There's a big difference between a warp storm and having no astronomicon (never minding how the Ultramarines flew to Terra through the plot hole). A warp storm makes it difficult to detect and batters a ship's Geller field. This is it not being there at all. There are a few relics of the dark age of technology that allow fairly short calculated jumps, but the navigator houses have spent the last ten thousand years destroying them (and occasionally he entire ships they were on).

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Because their dumb enough to think that the Tau care about them anymore than a dark eldar or a tyranid, really the Tau just use usefull idiots as human sandbags while taking the glory for themselves.

Zho, please don't call people dumb if you are going to use 'their' instead of 'they're'. Further, how is that actually different than how they're treated by the Imperium, if you get down to it? Don't Space Marines do that exact same thing to the Imperial Guard? At least with the Tau they get to rule thier own worlds, and not be occasionally fed into human bonfires.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

They've done it before. Towards the latter part of the Horus Heresy, Ultima Segmentum was cut off from Terra by mighty Warp storms conjured by the traitors to keep or delay Guilliman and the XIII Legion from getting to Terra. Calth and other events had significantly reduced the XIII Legion's numbers, but they were still the largest of them all; Horus didn't want that huge force anywhere near Terra.

There's a big difference between a warp storm and having no astronomicon (never minding how the Ultramarines flew to Terra through the plot hole). A warp storm makes it difficult to detect and batters a ship's Geller field. This is it not being there at all. There are a few relics of the dark age of technology that allow fairly short calculated jumps, but the navigator houses have spent the last ten thousand years destroying them (and occasionally he entire ships they were on).

No one touches the Ultramarines' ships. Or those of other Astartes. Those ships are relics in their own right. And the Astronomican can't shine through a Warp storm either; there's a reason ships go around them.

And its not like Navigators and Librarians can't navigate without the Astronomican, because they can. Its just less safe and reliable to do so. But they can; if they have to, they'll do what the Chaos fleets do - let their instincts guide them and follow the Warp currents. Pretty sure even the Gods of Chaos would want the Tau from winning in Ultima Segmentum.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Zho, please don't call people dumb if you are going to use 'their' instead of 'they're'. Further, how is that actually different than how they're treated by the Imperium, if you get down to it? Don't Space Marines do that exact same thing to the Imperial Guard? At least with the Tau they get to rule thier own worlds, and not be occasionally fed into human bonfires.

There's a big difference between being ruled by your own kind and by those not of your kind.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

No one touches the Ultramarines' ships. Or those of other Astartes. Those ships are relics in their own right. And the Astronomican can't shine through a Warp storm either; there's a reason ships go around them.

....

The reason that people avoid warp storms has nothing to do with the astronomicon (though it can't always be detected in them) It has more to do with your ship's geller field being stripped off, the entire ship exposed to the raw warp and, if you're very, very lucky, flung out of the warp at a random point someplace in space and time with massive damage and huge numbers of casualties. Otherwise you're consumed by daemons, becalmed for untold centuries, or added to the bulk of a Space Hulk.

And...

Well.... here's the rub... None of the SM ships aside from a very few exceptions actually predate the codex, and even some of those that do can be forced to stop due to warp storms. (See Flight of the Eisenstein where even the Phalanx was unable to proceed until the storm blew out). While strike cruisers existed before the Heresy, battlebarges as they currently exist did not. Most battlebarges of the great crusade were either unique and more or less lost since, vessels (see Venerable Battlebarge). The Ultramarines have a single non-codex vessel in their fleet, the Seditio Oppemere, which was built specifically to (cause mjuch Rage among BFG players) fight the tyranids following the destruction the Dominus Astra and most of Battlefleet Bakka at Circe during the Battle of Macragge.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

There's a big difference between being ruled by your own kind and by those not of your kind.

Also depends on your definition of 'rule'. Based on the description in The Greater Good, once a world capitulates to the Tau, they leave the government largely intact with human 'advisers' who represent the Tau, with human soldiers and human government officials. Just how much the Tau actually 'rule' the human worlds they claim is highly questionable. They certainly don't 'Rule' The Kroot or the Demiurge or the Vespid.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Also depends on your definition of 'rule'. Based on the description in The Greater Good, once a world capitulates to the Tau, they leave the government largely intact with human 'advisers' who represent the Tau, with human soldiers and human government officials. Just how much the Tau actually 'rule' the human worlds they claim is highly questionable. They certainly don't 'Rule' The Kroot or the Demiurge or the Vespid.

No thanks. I'd sooner live under Imperial or Chaos tyranny than under a Xenos utopia.

And even if the Astronomican is gone, just follow the Warp currents. As I've said, its unlikely the Gods of Chaos would want the Tau to win.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Also interesting was that on at least one tau controlled world in the Damocles Gulf, it's considered normal for humans to have tau first names and human family names. The implication being that the humans integrate extensively into tau culture.

In other words, they assimilate Humans, re-writing them into Tau in Human skins.

So Tau are extremely intolerant to everything different.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

There's also some inquisitorial speculation that Tau convince mutants and psykers to use their powers for the greater good, but no evidence is presented.

The latter is insane. Even pre-Heresy Magnus would balk at the idea of letting psykers freely use their powers without appropriate training. The former is just going to bring Imperial blood to a low boil.

So Tau are too tolerant to everything different.

Make up your mind why you hate Tau so much

Make up your mind why you hate Tau so much

I don't need to hate them, I just see them as competitors and enemies of mankind, all of mankind

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Also interesting was that on at least one tau controlled world in the Damocles Gulf, it's considered normal for humans to have tau first names and human family names. The implication being that the humans integrate extensively into tau culture.

In other words, they assimilate Humans, re-writing them into Tau in Human skins.

So Tau are extremely intolerant to everything different.

I'd like to keep my racial identity, thank you very much.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

There's also some inquisitorial speculation that Tau convince mutants and psykers to use their powers for the greater good, but no evidence is presented.

The latter is insane. Even pre-Heresy Magnus would balk at the idea of letting psykers freely use their powers without appropriate training. The former is just going to bring Imperial blood to a low boil.

So Tau are too tolerant to everything different.

Untrained psykers are dangerous. Mutants are monsters. And Humans kill monsters. Its what we do best.

Make up your mind why you hate Tau so much

I hate communists.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
As I've said, its unlikely the Gods of Chaos would want the Tau to win.

Yes, because bowing to the will of the Ruinous Powers has worked so well in the past....


My money is on, if GW ever advances the story, that the Beacon fails, cutting off the Ultramarines, who then accept aid from the Tau in an effort to save the segmentum from the tyranids and then worry about the tau being xenos at a later date.

That and the sound of Admiral here's head exploding would be my new phone ringtone.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
As I've said, its unlikely the Gods of Chaos would want the Tau to win.

Yes, because bowing to the will of the Ruinous Powers has worked so well in the past....


My money is on, if GW ever advances the story, that the Beacon fails, cutting off the Ultramarines, who then accept aid from the Tau in an effort to save the segmentum from the tyranids and then worry about the tau being xenos at a later date.

That and the sound of Admiral here's head exploding would be my new phone ringtone.

...
...
...

Is that offer from Tzeentch still valid?

I hate communists.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that could not be farther from the truth. People hear "For the Greater Good" and automatically think communism, but working together is not communism, it is common sense. One of the fundamental tenants of communism is the abolition of social classes. I don't know whether you have noticed or not, but all of Tau society is based on social castes, so much so that the Tau have branched into 5 different species. It is very hard to label the Tau system of government, as they are aliens with alien minds, but one of the best interpretations (most of Tau fluff is interpretations of the very limited data that has been provided) is that they are a tribal society. I cannot really be bothered spelling it all out, but it is all nicely summarized here http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16840.

reddwarf54 wrote:

I hate communists.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that could not be farther from the truth. People hear "For the Greater Good" and automatically think communism, but working together is not communism, it is common sense.

It's not "communist" in the rational sense, it is "communist" in the redneck sense, standing for everything "not us" and so hateworthy.
Recent quote from a NRA member: "If the government prohibits the sale of assault rifles to civilians, USA will become communist!"

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I'm really sorry about this, and I'm somewhat aware that Tau threads are flame-bait in the making, but I really do not understand. Why would anyone accept the rule of others than of their own people? The Tau Empire's 'clients' are basically 19th Century protectorates IN SPAAACE!!! I understand the Imperium's a somewhat difficult place to live in, but shouldn't living under your own people be more preferable than living under, well, something that isn't even Human to begin with?

You actually convinced me to read more with this....but then after reading a few pages of comments I came to my senses. OP should have read "IRRATIONAL TAU/COMMUNIST HATING FLAME BATTLE ENGAGE!!!!!!!!!! PREPARE TO BOW BEFORE YOUR GOD EMPORER COMMUNIST PIGS!" I would have immediately moved on.

Tau could easily be as Fascist as they are Communist. Fascists also strive for unity for the greater betterment of the state.

reddwarf54 wrote:
Most humans accept the rule of the Tau empire as it is the best alternative. The Tau would let you live a much more free life than the imperium ever would. Hell, they even allow the worship of the emperor.

This. And I look at it from a standpoint of it just sounds great! Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

In reply to the first few posts mostly...

The argument that Humans would want to be ruled strictly by other humans is an extention of the arguement that all human are inately repulsed by the notion of being ruled by something alien or unfamilar. Do a degree is presents the agrument that all humans are inately racist to certain degree.

I won't argue the real world effects of that given that I think they are self evident and that human will always desire to isolate and quantify things into groups, based on whataver factors are present.

However I will say that in the 41st millenium it is well establish that all imperial citizens are raided, and educated in a fashion that propgates a strong xenophobia (phobia here becuase most average humans SHOULD fear aliens given the threat they pose to their existence). Among the militant bodies of the Imperium, that phobia is not present, but replaced by an educated, unretraced hatred. All Imperial soldiers are indoctrinated with the KNOWLEDGE that xenos are dangerous, and untrustworthy. To engage in anything other than hostilities with them is heresy. Period.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

The whole sterilization of conquered colonies doesn't really exist in in-house sources, it's drawn from a THQ video game and FFG's Deathwatch. And, in both cases, it is *strongly* implied that this may be Imperial propaganda.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

I guess that unthinking, human chauvinism is better? The Tau Empire offers a viable alternative. Mass sterilisations are, at least outside the Velkhan sept, pretty much unheard in current fluff and living as a client of the Tau Empire, which unlike the Imperium considers scientifical progress ( the very thing which allowed us to become what we are ) to be worthwhile, can have advantages. In a universe which seems to be populated and ruled by madmen the Tau offer a somewhat sane ( and so far quite successful ) alternative.

 KingDeath wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

I guess that unthinking, human chauvinism is better? The Tau Empire offers a viable alternative. Mass sterilisations are pretty much unheard in current fluff and living as a client of the Tau Empire, which unlike the Imperium considers scientifical progress ( the very thing which allowed us to become what we are ) to be worthwhile, can have advantages. In a universe which seems to be populated and ruled by madmen the Tau offer a somewhat sane ( and so far quite successful ) alternative.

Scientifical? Really...

Well, I suppose that explains your alien sympathies