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En Excelsis wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

I guess that unthinking, human chauvinism is better? The Tau Empire offers a viable alternative. Mass sterilisations are pretty much unheard in current fluff and living as a client of the Tau Empire, which unlike the Imperium considers scientifical progress ( the very thing which allowed us to become what we are ) to be worthwhile, can have advantages. In a universe which seems to be populated and ruled by madmen the Tau offer a somewhat sane ( and so far quite successful ) alternative.

Scientifical? Really...

Well, I suppose that explains your alien sympathies

Please help a bro who is realy tired ( has been a long day ), did i make a spelling error?

I think it's just "scientific".

Anyway, humanity did at one point embrace your way of thinking. Prior even to the Emperor when humanity was spread about the galaxy we had such marvels of technology that we eventually created the "Iron Men"... I'll spare you the whole story but ultimately we created Skynet and the brought about the Terminator apocalypse. Mankind regressed and was isolated by warp storms... the bulk of our technology was lost and most of the artefacts of that age (now called the Dark Age of Technology) are kept under lock and key by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The Emperor, also a keen scientist, favored technology and placed science ahead of religion in his empire, calling it the "Imperial Truth". Being the master of science that he was, he created (genetically) 20 clone sons-of himself, and legions of clone-sons of them. Yet he still knew that too great a dependency on science was ultimately a mistake.

To that end, the create of any machine intelligence (AI) is, and has always been, forbidden. Under the Emperor's rule it was simply not allowed, and not a sole questioned it. Currently, under the stewardship of the High Lords of Terra, and the Religious cult of the Mechanicus, creation of machine intelligence is a sin against the Machine God.



Mankind's understanding... or respect... of technology is not inferior to that of the Tau, it is simply different. We hve lived long enough to see our empire touch the far ends of the galaxy, and in eons we have had the time to learn from mistakes that Tau are yet too nascent to make.

The bulk of humnaity now lives in a blissful ignorance of the threats that face us. We do not (often we could not) comprehend the dangers of that dark knowledge. Imperial soldiers are taught to field-strip a lasgun, but have no more understanding of how a plasma cannon opperates than does an Imperial sculptor or baker. They are told to "honor their wargear" and treat it with care and respect. Any matters of repair or maintenance are handled by custodes of the Mechanicus... Techpriests who keep all knowledge of their work secret.

The technology of Tau is not new to humanity... it is part of our past, not our future. And it can never be a selling point to entice us from what exists at the core of our being... that need to remain together as a collective. to share in the greatest gift the Emperor gave us.

Hate.

We can hate the Xenos together

En Excelsis wrote:
I think it's just "scientific".

Anyway, humanity did at one point embrace your way of thinking. Prior even to the Emperor when humanity was spread about the galaxy we had such marvels of technology that we eventually created the "Iron Men"... I'll spare you the whole story but ultimately we created Skynet and the brought about the Terminator apocalypse. Mankind regressed and was isolated by warp storms... the bulk of our technology was lost and most of the artefacts of that age (now called the Dark Age of Technology) are kept under lock and key by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The Emperor, also a keen scientist, favored technology and placed science ahead of religion in his empire, calling it the "Imperial Truth". Being the master of science that he was, he created (genetically) 20 clone sons-of himself, and legions of clone-sons of them. Yet he still knew that too great a dependency on science was ultimately a mistake.

To that end, the create of any machine intelligence (AI) is, and has always been, forbidden. Under the Emperor's rule it was simply not allowed, and not a sole questioned it. Currently, under the stewardship of the High Lords of Terra, and the Religious cult of the Mechanicus, creation of machine intelligence is a sin against the Machine God.



Mankind's understanding... or respect... of technology is not inferior to that of the Tau, it is simply different. We hve lived long enough to see our empire touch the far ends of the galaxy, and in eons we have had the time to learn from mistakes that Tau are yet too nascent to make.

The bulk of humnaity now lives in a blissful ignorance of the threats that face us. We do not (often we could not) comprehend the dangers of that dark knowledge. Imperial soldiers are taught to field-strip a lasgun, but have no more understanding of how a plasma cannon opperates than does an Imperial sculptor or baker. They are told to "honor their wargear" and treat it with care and respect. Any matters of repair or maintenance are handled by custodes of the Mechanicus... Techpriests who keep all knowledge of their work secret.

The technology of Tau is not new to humanity... it is part of our past, not our future. And it can never be a selling point to entice us from what exists at the core of our being... that need to remain together as a collective. to share in the greatest gift the Emperor gave us.

Hate.

We can hate the Xenos together

THIS. If the Eldar are an elder race to Mankind, then we are an elder race to the Tau. We know better.

Gak... never mind, nothing to see here. This is not the post you are looking for.

People know the IoM isn't meant to be right. right? It's a joke. When we here statements like hate is the greatest gift, we are meant to giggle, and snicker at how completely bonkers the IoM is. We aren't meant to agree with it.

The anti-xeno ideology is based partially in reality but primarily in the ego we've injected into Warhammer 40k. Nothing wrong (and often amusing) with giving answers form the perspective of an Imperium zealot but it's not objective.

The Tau represent two core components of the human condition.

1. We should work together to achieve our goals. Sure, it varies to certain degrees but it has played an overwhelming role since the dawn of man.

2. Self-interest. Game theory is one of the most succcessful models at predicting human behavior and that is because it is based solely on the idea that people will do what they think is in their best interests.

If the Tau provide an alternative that seems in the best interests of humans they are going to follow it. The fact that it involves working together is simply an extenuation of very human and ancient tradition.

Some person who tells me that I and every subsequent generation after me must gladly give their lives without question for a dead emperor ill never see or meet sound more "alien" then the actual blue aliens saying that I will be given a choice for how I want to live.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.

Considering it's been hundreds of years and humans seem to still be reproducing pretty regularly on Tau held worlds, I might suggest that the already non-canon Tau ending to DoW (which was read aloud by the Imperial Narrator) is just that: non-canon.

FFG... again has been hit or miss. HBMC was quick to point out earlier, Andy Chambers was involved in writing BFK. This is rather disingenuous of him, as he's also been quick to point out that one writer doesn't always know what the other writers are writing, or why. IIRC, Chambers wrote the 'Life of a Space Ship' section, not the part with additional space ship hulls. (which had issues not only conflicting with BFG, but previously printed FFG material).

 Shlazaor wrote:
The anti-xeno ideology is based partially in reality but primarily in the ego we've injected into Warhammer 40k. Nothing wrong (and often amusing) with giving answers form the perspective of an Imperium zealot but it's not objective.

The Tau represent two core components of the human condition.

1. We should work together to achieve our goals. Sure, it varies to certain degrees but it has played an overwhelming role since the dawn of man.

2. Self-interest. Game theory is one of the most succcessful models at predicting human behavior and that is because it is based solely on the idea that people will do what they think is in their best interests.

If the Tau provide an alternative that seems in the best interests of humans they are going to follow it. The fact that it involves working together is simply an extenuation of very human and ancient tradition.

You are correct: There is nothing wrong with giving answers from the perspective of an Imperial citizen.

That being said, it would be a bit narrow of mind to overlook the body of my post simply because I chose to end it on a mildly comical note.

It also bears mention that this entire universe is a work of fiction, created not by one man but by many. Therefore it and all of it's contents the results of thoughts that are present in not one man, but many. The Tau and their notions of "The Greater Good" are just as much a result of real human thinking as the Emperor and his "Greatest Gift to Mankind". We inject BOTH into 40k. No one supersedes the other. I do not propose that an enlightened, thinking man would rationalize servitude to the Tau Overlords as one iota more reasonable than the Drudgery of a hive life in the Imperium. To such a man both options are equally unsuitable.

What I do propose however is that each notion speaks to man (not one, but mankind as a race) on a different level:

The Tau appeal to small thinkers. Students, not masters, who play at the notion of philosophy and logical reason. "The Greater Good" is an idiom for "The Bright Tomorrow" of Soviet Communism in the late 20th Century. It was a wool pulled over the eyes of the masses to subjugate, not enlighten. As a species humans have already evolved beyond that failed concept even in the real world. Communism is regarded as irrational and a failed model of governance that is the result only of tyranny and oppression. It is an affront to our sense of personal freedom. This is played out by the Tau as well and the writers are more than happy to point out that the Tau are not offering a peaceful alternative, but simply a variant means to the same end. Every race that has joined the Tau coalition is not given equal standing, but forced into service... the Kroot simply die for the Tau, as do the Vespid and other conquered races. All "lesser" races will go and die in droves at the front lines so that their Tau masters can more readily achieve their plans... what they offer is slavery and death disguised as freedom. Bait set for a trap that only a stripling thinker would fall for.

Contrastingly, the Emperor and his gift of Hatred appeals to mankind on a more subtle level. We do not have to reason with it, or rationalize it to ourselves. At no point in modern life do humans gather and decide, "what can we hate today that will make me feel better". It is not something we allow socially, and it ultimately offends our sense of decency. Instead, that part of our lives is run subliminally. Racism, Classism, etc... things of this nature tear a rift in human society even today, and they do it because without us even realizing it, humans form packs... we bond more closely because of hate. Despite all the rhetoric about love and its endowments... Hate ties men together more closely than any other emotion. Gather around the water cooler and chat with a buddy at the office, or have a passing conversation with neighbor. Without paying too much attention you can clearly see that we will have more in common with the things we dislike than the things we favor. Tell me that "Bill" is your favorite sports personality and I may tell you that "Bob" is a better player. But if you tell me how much you think "Joe" over in accounting is a dunce for wasting all his money gambling, or how much a pain our boss is for not giving out a pay raise this year when we all know he just bought himself a new yacht.

How quickly will you make friends saying you like this team and I like that one... not very quickly.

How quickly will you make friends if we share a common enemy... if we both dislike the same things.

What the Emperor offers humanity is something that we need... that we do, on a subconscious level. It is in every man and we cannot "cure" it with reason, or logic, or the beginnings of philosophy. It is something that fulfills us on some unseen level. What the Space Marines quote is not a common rhetoric in the Imperium. After all the Adeptus Astartes are the "Cult of the Emperor" and the truly do worship him. My quoting them was just comedy. But to a typical Imperial citizen, the thought or idea that hate could even be a gift never enters their mind. Their days are kept busy and laborious intentionally so that their minds DON'T wonder in dark places.

And like it or not, at the end of the day we are all human. We do need to hate. Subscription to the ideology of the Tau is either folly by ignorance, or a denial of the very things that make us human

I think your over thinking it.

En Excelsis wrote:
"The Greater Good" is an idiom for "The Bright Tomorrow" of Soviet Communism in the late 20th Century. It was a wool pulled over the eyes of the masses to subjugate, not enlighten. As a species humans have already evolved beyond that failed concept even in the real world. Communism is regarded as irrational and a failed model of governance that is the result only of tyranny and oppression. It is an affront to our sense of personal freedom. This is played out by the Tau as well and the writers are more than happy to point out that the Tau are not offering a peaceful alternative, but simply a variant means to the same end. Every race that has joined the Tau coalition is not given equal standing, but forced into service... the Kroot simply die for the Tau, as do the Vespid and other conquered races. All "lesser" races will go and die in droves at the front lines so that their Tau masters can more readily achieve their plans... what they offer is slavery and death disguised as freedom. Bait set for a trap that only a stripling thinker would fall for.

Wow, you managed to conflict with both printed canon AND reality in the same post. I applaud you, sir.

Please point me to where the writer have written this?

Further, you yourself are making the classic student error of confusing communism with governance. An example, a government can be democratic and communist at the same time. (In fact, that was rather the ideal) Unfortunately where communism falls down in the real world is that it assumes that most people are inherently good.

[It's also the reasoning that people give that I shouldn't when I advocate exterminating the bulk of this wretched humanity (who are generally scum sucking self interested lowlifes who's over inflated sense of self entitlement deserves only a long, and painful, death) and starting over.]

This is why only governments with absolute power (and all the evils that brings) have ever tried communism. Further, it should be pointed out that, it was initially highly successful in Russia, as an economic system. Where things fell down for them is they tried to outspend a capitalist society and bankrupt themselves in the effort.


In the case of the Tau, a better comparison might be to compare the Tau empire to COMINTERN rather than the Soviet Union. The Tau Empire is united more by Ideology and external threats rather than brute force.

I'm sure I read somewhere that tau have sterilised humans, and I know they use mind controll on vespid, and ethereals emit pheromones that make tau "listen to them", but they do thease things as they aren't bound by petty morality, if there's too many citizens and not enough resorces, they do what has to be done "for the greater good" of their empire, tau make the right choices.

Someone should really edit that 1d4chan article calling the Tau Empire communist. Misinformative, I say.

Anyways, yes, hate is one of the more important human emotions. It form the basic principles of justice ("Punish the criminal") and governs many of our actions in social situations. Hatred means that we are able to disagree.

En Excelsis 499046 5239497 wrote:

Contrastingly, the Emperor and his gift of Hatred appeals to mankind on a more subtle level. We do not have to reason with it, or rationalize it to ourselves. At no point in modern life do humans gather and decide, "what can we hate today that will make me feel better". It is not something we allow socially, and it ultimately offends our sense of decency. Instead, that part of our lives is run subliminally. Racism, Classism, etc... things of this nature tear a rift in human society even today, and they do it because without us even realizing it, humans form packs... we bond more closely because of hate. Despite all the rhetoric about love and its endowments... Hate ties men together more closely than any other emotion. Gather around the water cooler and chat with a buddy at the office, or have a passing conversation with neighbor. Without paying too much attention you can clearly see that we will have more in common with the things we dislike than the things we favor. Tell me that "Bill" is your favorite sports personality and I may tell you that "Bob" is a better player. But if you tell me how much you think "Joe" over in accounting is a dunce for wasting all his money gambling, or how much a pain our boss is for not giving out a pay raise this year when we all know he just bought himself a new yacht.

How quickly will you make friends saying you like this team and I like that one... not very quickly.

How quickly will you make friends if we share a common enemy... if we both dislike the same things.

But this is a rather childish outlook. You speak of "hate", yet we very rarely express pure hatred to even those who agree with you. Have you ever talked about killing someone with anyone? Most likely yes. Have you actually killed anyone? Statistically: no

When people talk about "hating" something, they do it in good spirits. Though not always... Let's say you talk about killing someone you don't like with a friend. And then your friend really, actually kills him. That is hate. But the catch is, society itself rejects hate. Killing a man has consequences, mainly prison or a death sentence. Ironic, isn't it? Justice, merely an evolved form of hate, would condemn the emotion that created it. Well, not hate itself, but any emotion powerful enough to disrupt order.

What the Emperor offers humanity is something that we need... that we do, on a subconscious level. It is in every man and we cannot "cure" it with reason, or logic, or the beginnings of philosophy. It is something that fulfills us on some unseen level. What the Space Marines quote is not a common rhetoric in the Imperium. After all the Adeptus Astartes are the "Cult of the Emperor" and the truly do worship him. My quoting them was just comedy. But to a typical Imperial citizen, the thought or idea that hate could even be a gift never enters their mind. Their days are kept busy and laborious intentionally so that their minds DON'T wonder in dark places.

You say that people need hate subconsciously. They need an enemy to fight against, and they should be obliged whether they ask it or not? That sounds like social manipulation...

But anyways, people are both emotional and rational beings, and making decisions solely with hate, that is one of the most powerful and most irrational of all emotions, is foolish. Good may come of it, but irrational actions usually end with irrational results, something neither side can control. And to say that process like this has inherent value is rather dubious.

If memory serves, there was a tragedy in Egypt a couple years ago, where two fandoms of soccer teams fought when they felt their own team was wronged. One side suffered major casualities, dozens or so. Ordinary people, so blinded by emotion they would kill a fellow man for the outcome of a game. No, it's not unheard of, but it doesn't make it good.

Social manipulation by negative emotions is in no way better than social manipulation by positive emotions. In the end, both try to diminish the power an individual has over his life, and that is never good.

And like it or not, at the end of the day we are all human. We do need to hate. Subscription to the ideology of the Tau is either folly by ignorance, or a denial of the very things that make us human

Tau are human in all but the most superficial of ways. They think like humans, act like humans, feel like humans but are blue and have no noses. They pass in every way it counts. To separate Tau and humanity would be like saying "Caucasians/asians/african-americans are not human." There are differences, but most of them are superficial and cultural. Former has no rational effect and latter has nothing to do with race. Yes, half of humanity might think their race, by definition, is superior, but that doesn't make them not wrong. It just makes half of us irrational.

Lumipon wrote:


But this is a rather childish outlook. You speak of "hate", yet we very rarely express pure hatred to even those who agree with you. Have you ever talked about killing someone with anyone? Most likely yes. Have you actually killed anyone? Statistically: no

When people talk about "hating" something, they do it in good spirits. Though not always... Let's say you talk about killing someone you don't like with a friend. And then your friend really, actually kills him. That is hate. But the catch is, society itself rejects hate. Killing a man has consequences, mainly prison or a death sentence. Ironic, isn't it? Justice, merely an evolved form of hate, would condemn the emotion that created it. Well, not hate itself, but any emotion powerful enough to disrupt order.

Agreed. It is very uncommon for people to share are deepest emotions with our peers. When listening to a song the radio, you may have deep, personal connection with the meaning of the lyrics. That song may connect with you on a very deep level. But if someone were to ask why you listen to it so much, it would probably suffice to say "I like it".

And saying "I like it" is a far cry from going into a lengthy explanation of why that particular tune speaks to me.

That's a fairly weak analogy but it still serves to illustrate my point. We as humans deliberately simplify our emontions into a form that we can communicate. When you tell your friends that you like the same sports team, you're not explaining that you're forming an emotional bond that may or may not mature into a deeper more meaningful relationship.

I don't want to do the opposite either, and tell you that every simple emotion is as powerful as Love or Hate... that is an equally untrue statement. But I think it is worth saying that all of our emotions have roots in one of those two. And to that end, we actually do love and hate, in their truest sense more frequently than not, it's just to varrying desgrees.

What the Emperor offers humanity is something that we need... that we do, on a subconscious level. It is in every man and we cannot "cure" it with reason, or logic, or the beginnings of philosophy. It is something that fulfills us on some unseen level. What the Space Marines quote is not a common rhetoric in the Imperium. After all the Adeptus Astartes are the "Cult of the Emperor" and the truly do worship him. My quoting them was just comedy. But to a typical Imperial citizen, the thought or idea that hate could even be a gift never enters their mind. Their days are kept busy and laborious intentionally so that their minds DON'T wonder in dark places.

Lumipon wrote:

You say that people need hate subconsciously. They need an enemy to fight against, and they should be obliged whether they ask it or not? That sounds like social manipulation...

But anyways, people are both emotional and rational beings, and making decisions solely with hate, that is one of the most powerful and most irrational of all emotions, is foolish. Good may come of it, but irrational actions usually end with irrational results, something neither side can control. And to say that process like this has inherent value is rather dubious.

I Agree with this line of logic. It would indeed be foolish to make a decision based on an emotion (any emotion) which we know will affect out judgement. But I made it a point to mention in my previous post that we don't do that... the human capacity to hate, and the way that hate influences and motivates is is not something at we "use". It's not a part of our logic or reason, it's beneath the surface.

Lumipon wrote:

If memory serves, there was a tragedy in Egypt a couple years ago, where two fandoms of soccer teams fought when they felt their own team was wronged. One side suffered major casualities, dozens or so. Ordinary people, so blinded by emotion they would kill a fellow man for the outcome of a game. No, it's not unheard of, but it doesn't make it good.

Social manipulation by negative emotions is in no way better than social manipulation by positive emotions. In the end, both try to diminish the power an individual has over his life, and that is never good.

Again (sounding redundant here) I agree. And I never proposed that hate was even remotely "good" I personally subscribe to a set of beliefs that would have me "love my neighbor as my brother" rather than hate them.

I would not encourage anyone in the real world to build a case for hatred as being their cheif motivational factor. That would be "bad" in every way I can fathom.

But I wouldn't have them live in denail either. People do hate. Often and for a myriad of reasons, we truly hate many things. It's a part of who and what we are. I think more so than a lot of the more modern ideology that seems more artificial and unnatural.

Lumipon wrote:

Tau are human in all but the most superficial of ways. They think like humans, act like humans, feel like humans but are blue and have no noses. They pass in every way it counts. To separate Tau and humanity would be like saying "Caucasians/asians/african-americans are not human." There are differences, but most of them are superficial and cultural. Former has no rational effect and latter has nothing to do with race. Yes, half of humanity might think their race, by definition, is superior, but that doesn't make them not wrong. It just makes half of us irrational.

We've exited the context of the post here. Yes the Tau are "human" in virtually every way but their appearance. Just like the Eldar, the Necrons, the Orks, and the Daemons of the Warp. But that's not by virtue of "what they are"... it's because they are works of fiction created by men. If we say they think or speak in jibberish, it's because jibberish is a concept we created and can understand. We've super-imposed oursselves and our reason into our creations. They can only be things that we understand.

The context of this post was originally just a hypothetical. It was a question asked in the context of the game world. In a world where humans spanned the alaxy and fought wars with little blue men, why would a person defect to their side in favor of their own. My answer to that question (which is not something I am attempting to ideologically impress upon you... it's just how I see the 40k world working) is that hate supercedes the pretenses of the Tau teaching in the hierarchy of human thinking, and it compells us even further under our skin... the rehtoric of the Tau is ultimately hollow to us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
I'm not going to call your view wrong mostly because I would like it if we could find space for both. Just that's more something you made up then something that's out right intended.

Firstly I want to state that this thread has been amazing. I've seen a few trolls but by and large I am really proud of this community for being mostly reasonable in presenting their arguments. Kudos!

That being said, the quoted post above is one of many posts in this thread that makes reference to the intentions of the writers. This I think is a step in the wrong direction for this debate since it does not allow for the use of actual logic. There is a seperation of facts that must be present for a logical conclusion to be reached.

I as an author may state that I intended for character A to be a model citizen, but continually write about him commiting crimal acts, I am providing "facts" that contraction my intentions. Given the information at hand I find it clearly evident that writers of the Tau did at first intend them to be largely altruistic "good guys". But over the years as more information has been presented to us, we find that the Tau are in fact no more "good" than the Imperium.

The "facts" have fallen out of line with the intentions of the authors.

As a reader I have my own preferences toward specific factions or reasons of interest to me (I may like the look of some models more than others) and I play the armies that appeal to me the most. But I am truly a fan of the 40k universe in a wider sense, I like the majority of the background lore presented to us. (Exception being the most recent Necron and Blood Angels codices which have ultimate done a significant damage to the existing lore... IMO).

I actually like the Tau. I like them because I like the Imperium. Imagine an old man looking at a photo of his younger self. That is my take on the Tau... perhaps they had noble beginnings... perhaps they had "good intentions". But the grimdark of the 41st millenium permiates everything. That is something that I think the designers are aware of.

To me, the appeal of the game is that grimdark... the knowledge that there are no "good guys" in the comic books sense. Humanity must stand on the brink of destruction, and for that to be apparent you cannot have bands of chivalrous white knights crusanding about the galaxy rescuing kittens from trees. To illustrate the desperation of ALL the races in the game the writers have highlighted some things for the readers that showcase how the characters in this world cope.

Exterminatus is a great example. In current real-world thinking, that sort of "solution" is madness. But in 40k, it is a logical, albeit unfortunate conclusion to reach. That a man would condemn 1 billion souls to death so that he could save 10 billion later is sad but real. Failure for him to do so would result in even more death.

In previous editions of the game, Space Marines were painted as members of the "Cult of the Emperor". Warrior monks whose fortresses were more of a Temple than a miliary installation. the name "Angels of Death" had so much weight back then. I would encourage all of you to read the quote "What is Victory" from the 2rd edition Core Rulebook. That to me defines Space Marines.

But fast forward to now. The world less grimdark .Less 40k and more "Call of Duty". Marines are no longer presented as monks in service to their God Emperor, and more like soldiers in a long protracted war that someone will eventuall win. It is quickly becoming stale (See again new Necron and BA codices and how they poop all over the game). The Tau are nearly paramount in this trend.

They are the writers' attempt to insert a "good guy" into a world that has no place for them. The writers had to adapt their creations. Either alter all the other content to suit the new addtions... and make the game something other than what it is... or alter the new arrivals and have them fit more closely with the world. They will become more and more grimdark as the years pass.

They could never remain "knights in shining armor" and will ultimately become just like all the other races, having itos own motivation but ultimately seeking the same thing as all the others (that being the destruction of all other factions).

En Excelsis wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
The anti-xeno ideology is based partially in reality but primarily in the ego we've injected into Warhammer 40k. Nothing wrong (and often amusing) with giving answers form the perspective of an Imperium zealot but it's not objective.

The Tau represent two core components of the human condition.

1. We should work together to achieve our goals. Sure, it varies to certain degrees but it has played an overwhelming role since the dawn of man.

2. Self-interest. Game theory is one of the most succcessful models at predicting human behavior and that is because it is based solely on the idea that people will do what they think is in their best interests.

If the Tau provide an alternative that seems in the best interests of humans they are going to follow it. The fact that it involves working together is simply an extenuation of very human and ancient tradition.

You are correct: There is nothing wrong with giving answers from the perspective of an Imperial citizen.

That being said, it would be a bit narrow of mind to overlook the body of my post simply because I chose to end it on a mildly comical note.

It also bears mention that this entire universe is a work of fiction, created not by one man but by many. Therefore it and all of it's contents the results of thoughts that are present in not one man, but many. The Tau and their notions of "The Greater Good" are just as much a result of real human thinking as the Emperor and his "Greatest Gift to Mankind". We inject BOTH into 40k. No one supersedes the other. I do not propose that an enlightened, thinking man would rationalize servitude to the Tau Overlords as one iota more reasonable than the Drudgery of a hive life in the Imperium. To such a man both options are equally unsuitable.

What I do propose however is that each notion speaks to man (not one, but mankind as a race) on a different level:

The Tau appeal to small thinkers. Students, not masters, who play at the notion of philosophy and logical reason. "The Greater Good" is an idiom for "The Bright Tomorrow" of Soviet Communism in the late 20th Century. It was a wool pulled over the eyes of the masses to subjugate, not enlighten. As a species humans have already evolved beyond that failed concept even in the real world. Communism is regarded as irrational and a failed model of governance that is the result only of tyranny and oppression. It is an affront to our sense of personal freedom. This is played out by the Tau as well and the writers are more than happy to point out that the Tau are not offering a peaceful alternative, but simply a variant means to the same end. Every race that has joined the Tau coalition is not given equal standing, but forced into service... the Kroot simply die for the Tau, as do the Vespid and other conquered races. All "lesser" races will go and die in droves at the front lines so that their Tau masters can more readily achieve their plans... what they offer is slavery and death disguised as freedom. Bait set for a trap that only a stripling thinker would fall for.

Contrastingly, the Emperor and his gift of Hatred appeals to mankind on a more subtle level. We do not have to reason with it, or rationalize it to ourselves. At no point in modern life do humans gather and decide, "what can we hate today that will make me feel better". It is not something we allow socially, and it ultimately offends our sense of decency. Instead, that part of our lives is run subliminally. Racism, Classism, etc... things of this nature tear a rift in human society even today, and they do it because without us even realizing it, humans form packs... we bond more closely because of hate. Despite all the rhetoric about love and its endowments... Hate ties men together more closely than any other emotion. Gather around the water cooler and chat with a buddy at the office, or have a passing conversation with neighbor. Without paying too much attention you can clearly see that we will have more in common with the things we dislike than the things we favor. Tell me that "Bill" is your favorite sports personality and I may tell you that "Bob" is a better player. But if you tell me how much you think "Joe" over in accounting is a dunce for wasting all his money gambling, or how much a pain our boss is for not giving out a pay raise this year when we all know he just bought himself a new yacht.

How quickly will you make friends saying you like this team and I like that one... not very quickly.

How quickly will you make friends if we share a common enemy... if we both dislike the same things.

What the Emperor offers humanity is something that we need... that we do, on a subconscious level. It is in every man and we cannot "cure" it with reason, or logic, or the beginnings of philosophy. It is something that fulfills us on some unseen level. What the Space Marines quote is not a common rhetoric in the Imperium. After all the Adeptus Astartes are the "Cult of the Emperor" and the truly do worship him. My quoting them was just comedy. But to a typical Imperial citizen, the thought or idea that hate could even be a gift never enters their mind. Their days are kept busy and laborious intentionally so that their minds DON'T wonder in dark places.

And like it or not, at the end of the day we are all human. We do need to hate. Subscription to the ideology of the Tau is either folly by ignorance, or a denial of the very things that make us human

1. You are misusing the word hate. I don't hate the dunce at work. I find him annoying.

2. Hate does not bind us. I might bond with my work mate over the fact that Gabe is an idiot but when I hang out with him after work it's not because we both find Gabe annoying it's because we both like playing soccer together.

3. Positive emotions bind us strongest. My uncle took a bullet for his buddy in Iraq. He didn't do it because he hated the Sunni's feth who shot him, he did it because he loved his friend.

The basis of your arguement was that humans need hate to cooperate and be social but these three simple facts show that is not realy the case.

But let's operate from the premise that you are right. Converting to the Tau still makes sense.

1. I can dislike people under the Tau. I can promise that the humans auxillary in Tau regiments don't get all get along but they are still capable of operating toward a common goal the same way they are under the Imperium.

2. The Tau simply advocate for less killing and more cooperation. The same way I don't cuss out Gabe for being a lazy bastard. I work with him in a professional enviroment like everyone else at my job. My humanity hasn't been violated and neiter has my work mate who dislikes him too.

I think these exploration of your premise and conclusion show where maybe you made a mistake in your line of thinking. (Yes Gabe really is a work mate and yes he really is lazy as heck).

 jamessearle0 wrote:
I'm sure I read somewhere that tau have sterilised humans,

This is not from GW, it's heavily implied by the non-official Tau ending of Dawn of War and talked about in Deathwatch, though please note that FFG also implied that THIS



is also canon. So...

 jamessearle0 wrote:
and I know they use mind controll on vespid,

This has never been quite made clear actually. How the Communion Helms work (or if they do anything else) is unknown, though it seems to grant some sort of technologically based telepathy. Whether this is a form of mind control is actually unclear, but even Vespids without helms seem to understand and embrace the concept of the Greater Good. Possibly because they're wasp men.

 jamessearle0 wrote:
and ethereals emit pheromones that make tau "listen to them",

Currently retconned. And also made absolutely NO sense, as all types of Tau armor are atmospherically sealed. This was originally from, IIRC, Xenology, which has been retconned more often than Squats.

An interesting note: for hating humans so, tau are actually looking for a cure for humans with genestealer DNA rather than simply wipeing them out. (According to Deathwatch)


A little interesting addition:


Nicassar:
What they get out of the Tau: FTL transport for their dhows

Demiurg:
What they get out of the Tau: Trade

Kroot:
What they get out of the Tau: Fresh DNA

Galgs:
What they get out of the Tau: Unknown, galgs fight as mercs

Tarellians:
What they get out of the Tau: Revenge on the Imperium for virus bombing their homeworld during the Great Crusade, protection from the Hive fleets.

Vespids:
What they get out of the Tau: Vespids seem to embrace the Greater Good as it meshes with their psychology rather than gain.

Ji'atrix
What they get out of the Tau: Unclear. Associated with the nicassar.

Morralians:
What they get out of the Tau: Unknown, Morralians fight as mercs

Hrenians:
What they get out of the Tau: Unknown, Hrenians fight as mercs

Ranghon:
What they get out of the Tau: Unknown, mentioned.

An interesting note: for hating humans so, tau are actually looking for a cure for humans with genestealer DNA rather than simply wipeing them out.

So their naive in their brutality, they think its ok to conquer kill and commit indirect genocide but don't have the stomach to directly shoot someone.

They have no stomach to needlessly shoot someone. As far as tgey are concerned its a genetic abnormality brought about by hostile xenos. Its the greater good for them to at least try and find a cure.
Also trying to find a cure is very different from not eliminating uprisings and cults.

If they actually found a cure... That would all but end the genestealer cult threat for the tau, and end uprisings before they start.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

An interesting note: for hating humans so, tau are actually looking for a cure for humans with genestealer DNA rather than simply wipeing them out.

So their naive in their brutality, they think its ok to conquer kill and commit indirect genocide but don't have the stomach to directly shoot someone.

What is it with Tau threads that people who have never put a second in researching Tau background make the wildest hatemongering posts like this

Do Tau players go into every Imperium thread and post things like: "So Imperial citizens are totally okay with the Emperor being a cross-dressing catgirl?"

 BaronIveagh wrote:

An interesting note: for hating humans so, tau are actually looking for a cure for humans with genestealer DNA rather than simply wipeing them out. (According to Deathwatch)

The only cure for Genestealer infestation is purification by fire. We all know this to be true.

Genestealer infestation of an area or space hulk. yes.
Genestealer control of a human. Probably not.

 Eetion wrote:

Genestealer control of a human. Probably not.

Personally, that would be too hopeful. Too 'noblebright'...

In context of the setting, it is unlikely (more like impossible) that Tyranid genetic encoding could be reversed.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:

Genestealer control of a human. Probably not.

Personally, that would be too hopeful. Too 'noblebright'...

In context of the setting, it is unlikely (more like impossible) that Tyranid genetic encoding could be reversed.

In the context of the setting, the tau wouldn't have been able to backwards engineer a warp 'hop' without navigators, unify the diverse races of their Empire, and make miraculous scientific progress. Yet they make all these advances regardless The Tau epitomise the the hope and Scientifically sound progress.

There is no reason at all why they wouldn't be able to treat it as any other corrupt genetic disorder. Difficult certainly, but by no means impossible. After all its not like Chaos mutation, where it tends to be the soul that's the problem as well as the physical. In the case of the genestealers its not the case, entirely physical, and therefore potentially curable.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Personally, that would be too hopeful. Too 'noblebright'...

In context of the setting, it is unlikely (more like impossible) that Tyranid genetic encoding could be reversed.

And yet, according to the Deathwatch books, there are tau trying to do exactly that. (if they can succeed or not is... eh. But they are actually trying.)

 Kroothawk wrote:


Do Tau players go into every Imperium thread and post things like: "So Imperial citizens are totally okay with the Emperor being a cross-dressing catgirl?"

sure they would like to

Basically any thread in Background is a background 0f 40k thread. Not a "tau" or "imperium" thread. Not a closed society thread, where one has to prove her/him-self worthy of posting at all about a subject.


And its always funny to watch these so called "tau-threads". Whenever you expect the main sources to be used, those will manage to get around this, using 3rd party material whilst convienently ignoring other 3rd party stuff.

So this time, we get genestealer fluff. A "cure" he says. A chance to gain access to the abilities of the genestealers to go unseen, to control etc it is not. Or is it?

What is it with Tau threads that people who have never put a second in researching Tau background make the wildest hatemongering posts like this

Do Tau players go into every Imperium thread and post things like: "So Imperial citizens are totally okay with the Emperor being a cross-dressing catgirl?" "

I play a Chaos Fleet and was going to start a lost and the damned army till they got rid of it, and when I have the time and money am going to start a night lords armyi'm pretty use to whiny people complaining. But tell me about the cross dressing catgirl?

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
But tell me about the cross dressing catgirl?

For a start: It's not a golden throne, but a cat litter box
And all Primarchs use pheromones to make humans submissive, the Space Marine helmets are actually used for absolute mind control, that's why sergeants and captains don't like to wear them

 Eetion wrote:

In the context of the setting, the tau wouldn't have been able to backwards engineer a warp 'hop' without navigators...

Its slow and inefficient. Tau Warp technology is to Mankind as Mankind's Warp technology is to the Eldar.

...unify the diverse races of their Empire, and make miraculous scientific progress. Yet they make all these advances regardless The Tau epitomise the the hope and Scientifically sound progress.

Most Humans see no interest. Eldar and Dark Eldar are more likely to take advantage of the situation and use the Tau as pawns or in the case of the latter, as slaves and playthings. Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons have no interest either.

There is no reason at all why they wouldn't be able to treat it as any other corrupt genetic disorder. Difficult certainly, but by no means impossible. After all its not like Chaos mutation, where it tends to be the soul that's the problem as well as the physical.

Warp-based diseases may be cured because Isha leaks insider information to mortals. If the Eldar are to be believed, of course.

In the case of the genestealers its not the case, entirely physical, and therefore potentially curable.

If Tyranid genetics were that easy to unravel, the Ordo Xenos would have done it by now.

 Kroothawk wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
But tell me about the cross dressing catgirl?

For a start: It's not a golden throne, but a cat litter box
And all Primarchs use pheromones to make humans submissive, the Space Marine helmets are actually used for absolute mind control, that's why sergeants and captains don't like to wear them

And don't forget that Grey Knights secretly worship Khorne and there are female space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Its slow and inefficient. Tau Warp technology is to Mankind as Mankind's Warp technology is to the Eldar.

Retconned: IA 3

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

If Tyranid genetics were that easy to unravel, the Ordo Xenos would have done it by now.

They have, repeatedly. Where do you think those fancy anti-tyranid bolter rounds come from? However, the Imperium would kill genestealer hybrids after curing them anyway, due to 'xenos contamination'.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

They have, repeatedly. Where do you think those fancy anti-tyranid bolter rounds come from?

Hellfire rounds trigger uncontrolled mutation. Triggering mutation is far easier than controlling it, much less reversing it.