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Yeah I have been reading on and off so sorry for missing some of that and repeating it. Thanks though

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Yeah I have been reading on and off so sorry for missing some of that and repeating it. Thanks though

No problem.

Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

 Eetion wrote:
Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

Agreed. The Tau technology strategy is key for two reasons.

1. It breeds creativity and innovation in Tau developement.
2. They upgrade technology faster. They take the new ideas that alien tech brings them and upgrade it to fit their needs.

Mantis Missile Destroyers are just the newest Tau answer to other faction's heavy guns. One in a long line of new innovations and upgrades they are working on.

 Shlazaor wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

Agreed. The Tau technology strategy is key for two reasons.

1. It breeds creativity and innovation in Tau developement.
2. They upgrade technology faster. They take the new ideas that alien tech brings them and upgrade it to fit their needs.

Mantis Missile Destroyers are just the newest Tau answer to other faction's heavy guns. One in a long line of new innovations and upgrades they are working on.

Mantas are not new. They were around during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which was the first time the Imperium encountered the "modern" Tau.

What you're thinking of is the Tiger Shark AX-1-0, which was first encountered on Taros.
It was developed as a strike platform allowing for supporting Tau elements fighting Titans or other Super Heavy elements when Mantas were not necessarily prudent.

 Eetion wrote:
Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

As for tau ships being beter than Imperial ships I thought I read that somewhere, but I could have confused it with something else. As for slow advance the humans during the Dark age of Technology did the same thing with the STCs until they fell and when the Emperor got to reclaiming the galaxy the STCs were either destoryed or in pieces so the IOM didn't have that advantage.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

Agreed. The Tau technology strategy is key for two reasons.

1. It breeds creativity and innovation in Tau developement.
2. They upgrade technology faster. They take the new ideas that alien tech brings them and upgrade it to fit their needs.

Mantis Missile Destroyers are just the newest Tau answer to other faction's heavy guns. One in a long line of new innovations and upgrades they are working on.

Mantas are not new. They were around during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which was the first time the Imperium encountered the "modern" Tau.

What you're thinking of is the Tiger Shark AX-1-0, which was first encountered on Taros.
It was developed as a strike platform allowing for supporting Tau elements fighting Titans or other Super Heavy elements when Mantas were not necessarily prudent.

1. You are correct about the time line.

2. Though Mantas have the capability of destroying a Titan, they are not a dedicated super-heavy killer like the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 is.

Mankind was never a slow colonisation. They flung the$mselves to the corners of the galaxy on sleeper ships.

It was never a co-ordinated colonisation the way the tau implemented due to the lack of Warp drives or ether drives at that time. Or at least I'm sure the colonisation of the galaxy occurred before the golden age of technology.

 Eetion wrote:
Mankind was never a slow colonisation. They flung the$mselves to the corners of the galaxy on sleeper ships.

It was never a co-ordinated colonisation the way the tau implemented due to the lack of Warp drives or ether drives at that time. Or at least I'm sure the colonisation of the galaxy occurred before the golden age of technology.

Correct.

Ok I'm going to have to read that again then, but STCs did fix the problem of standardization during the Dark Age of Technology


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I remeber correctly

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Ok I'm going to have to read that again then, but STCs did fix the problem of standardization during the Dark Age of Technology


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I remeber correctly

Yeah. But only for the people who had them.

True enough, but they were there and you had all of mankind's greatest works at the touch of a button.

A lot of info is being posted al at once here and it's becoming easy for people to just "say what they think" without founding. Now I know this is a forum and you're free to say whatever you want, but I am personally struggling to keep up with where some of this information is coming from.

As it concerns the Tau vs IoM ships... There is no real source of information about who would win in a naval, fleet based engagement but I am inclined to think the IoM has the advantage there. But what I think the reason are saying the Tau have "better" ships is because the Tau have "Faster" ships.

The Imperium has almost no means of FTL. We can ply the starts at sub light-speed while within the same system and to an extent within the same group of systems... but any time the IoM needs to cover a significant distance, we have to make a Warp Jump, which is the fastest known means of travel, but is unreliable and unsafe.

The Tau are ships capable of FTL... so they can travel through real space faster than the IoM, but cannot cover great distances in any reasonable amount of time. This is why their entire Empire is a small handful of systems, while the IoM "controls" more than half the galaxy. If you need any kind of reference for scale, just do a search on Bing or Google and I'm sure you'll find some useful bits of info.

As per argument of which race has the most advanced Tech in general... it's tough to say since each race has such different tech. The IoM looks primitive to anyone who does not know her (which, evidently a lot of Tau sycophants do not). However the Eldar are advanced beyond the IoM in ways that are... honestly just too difficult to explain without just pointing you to their Codex.

Because of Mat Ward's chronic Warp Dust abuse, the Necrons were re-written to be even more advanced than the Eldar (apparently Necron players are compensating for something )

However both the Eldar and the Necrons are both so "sci fi" themed that its kind of a toss up as to which one is really more advanced since they are both advanced, but in such radically different ways.

The STCs were never pinnacles of technology of the Golden Age I don't think.

I was under the impression they were rough and ready schematics for whatever tool was needed with the resources available.
Need a power generator, only got lemon trees and copper on your world. STC will show you what to do, with your brand new Lemon fusion reactor.

What the STC represent to the Imperium is a blueprint for technology. Not nessacerily the pinnacle, but funtional and above all 'Sanctioned and Blessed by the machine God'

I don't know about it being the greatest thing mankind made, but I do know that hold a lot of good tech ex the Men of Iron though I think only one or so STC have been found with them though and chaos has a hold on them.

Would be a cool army to see if we didn't all ready have the necrons out.

En Excelsis wrote:

Because of Mat Ward's chronic Warp Dust abuse, the Necrons were re-written to be even more advanced than the Eldar (apparently Necron players are compensating for something )

However both the Eldar and the Necrons are both so "sci fi" themed that its kind of a toss up as to which one is really more advanced since they are both advanced, but in such radically different ways.

The Necrons have always been "even more advanced than the Eldar". The Necrontyr were a civilization based upon science who fought the Old Ones(the creators of the Eldar) before the Eldar were even in the picture. The intervention of the C'Tan caused the Necrontyr to be a force which the Old Ones actually had to take even more seriously.

 Kanluwen wrote:

En Excelsis wrote:

Because of Mat Ward's chronic Warp Dust abuse, the Necrons were re-written to be even more advanced than the Eldar (apparently Necron players are compensating for something )

However both the Eldar and the Necrons are both so "sci fi" themed that its kind of a toss up as to which one is really more advanced since they are both advanced, but in such radically different ways.

The Necrons have always been "even more advanced than the Eldar". The Necrontyr were a civilization based upon science who fought the Old Ones(the creators of the Eldar) before the Eldar were even in the picture. The intervention of the C'Tan caused the Necrontyr to be a force which the Old Ones actually had to take even more seriously.

I would tend to agree but I see where he is coming from. The Necrons went into hibernation primarily because they could not defeat the ascedant Eldar in their weakened state. The Necrons are unimaginably advanced (see fictional represenation of galaxy where if they delete a planet it actually disappears in real life). But it's probable that the Eldar at the height of their power could have been more advanced that the Necrons in some ways.

I have to again state that they are both RADICALLY advanced, but in different ways.

The Necrons utilize technology that is supposed to be advanced in such a way that they can utilize one or more alternate dimensions (certain models "phase" in and out, while others can just shoot with with a beam of sci-fi nonsense that transports you off the table by just dropping you off in a random other dimension. They also make abundant use of statis chambers which means they have a readily accessible way of manipulating time or suspending things within it. As well they have a standard issue weapon that strips the atomic structure of its target away shot by shot. The lore bit about them "extinguishing stars" and all that is (to my knowledge) completely unexplained and could be a reference to some piece of technology that literally destroys a star, or it could be just an analogy for them killing everything as they romp about the galaxy. (The old fluff stated that C'tan were literal being who "fed" off the energies of a star).

The Eldar by contrast have such a massive amount of psychic ability, that they could (at the peak of their Empire) just "think" something into or out of existence. They imbued inanimate objects with sentience and function. Like other races use circuits or wires, the Eldar use veins of "veins of psycho-conductive wraithbone" to control all of their technology. Their guns do not have triggers, they fire at the psychic command of whoever wields them.

The standard issue Shuriken catapult fires a hailstorm of (molecule thin) shuriken projectiles. They have D-Cannons that activate small, controlled black holes to compress and crush enemies. They have sonic weapons, and weapons that can open a rift to the warp and fling an enemy into it.

And they have "seed" ships that turned barren, lifeless rocks into inhabitable worlds...

They are almost exactly the opposite of the Necrons... but I don't think an argument could be made that either one was the technological superior of the other

 Shlazaor wrote:
The Necrons went into hibernation primarily because they could not defeat the ascedant Eldar in their weakened state.

Only newcrons. The oldcrons could have wiped out the Eldar if they wanted to; the only reason they went to sleep was because life had almost been wiped out by the Enslavers and the War in Heaven. They simply wanted to give the galaxy time to recover so they could consume life once again.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
The Necrons went into hibernation primarily because they could not defeat the ascedant Eldar in their weakened state.

Only newcrons. The oldcrons could have wiped out the Eldar if they wanted to; the only reason they went to sleep was because life had almost been wiped out by the Enslavers and the War in Heaven. They simply wanted to give the galaxy time to recover so they could consume life once again.

Well the Newcrons are the current Crons so that is what I am going to base my logic off.

Both are completely useless in the face of Chaos, the Tau can't deal with humanities psychic nature and the Necrons will be destroyed by the dark gods. Chaos owns the end game.

Overall, it is very hard to say which races are more advanced, as they approach the same problems demo different angles and with completely different methods. Generally speaking, I believe the tau are more advanced than the imperium. This is for a two of reasons.

Firstly, the average Tau soldier (fire warrior) is much better equipped than the average guardsman. The imperium may have some poeces of truly outstanding technology (titans, astartes etc...) but they are few and far between.

Secondly, the earth caste actually understands what they are doing. The admech simply copies ancient designs they found, and of it goes wrong, they light some incense and sacrifice a chicken to the machine god. In Mechanicum, it is shown that most techpriests do not umderstand how a simple circuit functions, instead believing that the machine god does all the work, and it is tech heresy to say otherwise.

 reddwarf54 wrote:
Overall, it is very hard to say which races are more advanced, as they approach the same problems demo different angles and with completely different methods. Generally speaking, I believe the tau are more advanced than the imperium. This is for a two of reasons.

Firstly, the average Tau soldier (fire warrior) is much better equipped than the average guardsman. The imperium may have some poeces of truly outstanding technology (titans, astartes etc...) but they are few and far between.

To be frank, this is only because Guardsmen are so many in number. Possibly billions of them spread all over the galaxy. It would be a logistical and manifacturing nightmare to equip every single one with hellguns and carapace armor.

Fire Warriors are much fewer in number, but they ca all be well-equipped.

Secondly, the earth caste actually understands what they are doing. The admech simply copies ancient designs they found, and of it goes wrong, they light some incense and sacrifice a chicken to the machine god. In Mechanicum, it is shown that most techpriests do not umderstand how a simple circuit functions, instead believing that the machine god does all the work, and it is tech heresy to say otherwise.

This is because of their dogma. They think STC is the source of science and technology, and they are not completely wrong. The STCs, when put together, would contain all the scientific research of the Golden Age of Technology (i.e the peak of human technology, possibly the third/second most advanced tech to exist..)

So the Imperium is actually advancing again by looking at the past. This does form a hard-cap for their science, but there are still many more STCs to rediscover.

Actually, the Adeptus Mechanicus understands how their machines work. Its just wrapped up in dogma and ritual. And they also frown on innovation and creativity; instead they focus on re-discovering items from the Golden Age of Technology and improving existing technologies as opposed to developing entirely new ones.

Imperium advancing again?

Really. They advance ONLY if they find an STC pattern. They have lost uncountable technologies since the Heresy.
Take BFG for example, advanced plasma weapon batteries, the scartix coil, advanced faster engine drives, all lost.

The vanquisher cannon is also lost isn't it along with bane blades having cheaper knock off versions.

The STC plans ensures the Imperium get a few new things in the midst of everything they lose. Its hardly a solid plan for advancement.

As for the small number of FW means they can equip them better. Let's put it into perspective. Its roughly a quarter of the Tau population that's Fire warriors. Even if its just 10% that's a sizable number to equip. They fact they can do that demonstrates the technological and productional skills of the Tau.

They advance. Not by innovation, but by adapting and improving existing technologies. Bolter ammo, new stages of development for Power Armor, etc., nothing really new, just improved versions of existing technology.

 Eetion wrote:
Even if this were the case, they have to identify the Tau as a young energetic race. This may take some time, it may be quick, it may be centuries.
But until then its not the Tau that will be the aggrssors to any necron revival.

And then the Necrons will come down on them like the wrath of Heaven.

So at best that's an update.
Not really innovative, nothing to help them churn out dreadnought Hulls or terminator Armour easier. No new Patterns of tank.

The Imperium at best scavenge from Space Hulks and hope they find an STC.

Even the forces of Chaos seem to be ahead on innovation, with the likes of the Hell blade/Talon, the Harbinger heavy bomber, the planet killer.

Now compare this with the relentless and innovative advance of the Tau. It just doesn't compare.

For every major advance the Imperium makes I can cite something they have lost since the heresy.

They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

Already happened, didn't work. Not even against the rather isolated Velk'han sept.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

Already happened, didn't work. Not even against the rather isolated Velk'han sept.

Except the Imperium is fighting a multi-front war against multiple opponents in the Jericho Reach. Doesn't matter. If the Imperium doesn't wipe them out, Chaos will. When the Emperor dies, we'll all have one, fair, chance to prove ourselves to the Gods of Chaos. Burning T'au and offering Aun'Va's soul to the gods will be my proof of existence