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BlaxicanX wrote:
The numbers that you're mentioning are irrelevant. The Space Marines work because they offer something that the Guard does not have and will never have: mobility.

They're not irrelevant because for all that vaunted mobility the Space Marines functionally are *NOWHERE*.

There are so few of them that for every instance they'd be desperately needed they simply aren't available 9,999 out of 10,000 times. So yeah, they're mobile, but they're never there when you need them, making that mobility rather pointless if they're simply not around.

Much as the Germans faced in WW2, yes the Tiger and King Tiger tanks were mighty foes, able to dominate battlefields where they appeared, too bad you've never got more than 60 in the field at any one time, on two fronts encompassing over 6000 continuous miles of active front against 20,000 enemy tanks that can simply move around them. They become irrelevant. Only in the case of the Space Marines, that gap is then exaggerated by a factor of ten thousand here.

This is, of course, on top of the fact that they go where they want, when they want, and so even if available and in the area, aren't necessarily guaranteed to make an appearance by any means. No SM chapter would commit to Vraks until the IG had been engaged for years and still wouldn't commit to the main battle until the war had been going on for over a decade. And then of course you run the risk of getting a chapter that just decides to up and leave for its own reasons leaving the task undone, like the DA's and their successors are described as doing quite often.

Then there's still the whole thing about them somehow always knowing exactly when and where to strike despite not having an intelligence apparatus and not exactly always having excellent relationships and information exchanges with other Imperial entities.

Outnumbering the Astartes a trillion to one is irrelevant when it takes the Guard over a year to even mobilize a task force to handle a threat (the Taros Campaign article notes that the ETA for how long it would take the Munitorum to assemble the required manpower and equipment necessary to take Taros was three years.

And yet other times the IG makes it to the battle in far less time, another factor heavily dependent on author. IIRC the Munitorum landed the first troops on Vraks much faster.

Having trillions more regiments than chapters means little when 95% of all the Guard regiments in the Galaxy are incapable of fighting daemons because they're regular human beings whose minds shatter when they look at a Nurgling, etc.

On what basis is this made? Daemons in and of themselves don't shatter the minds of guardsmen, we have plenty of examples of the Imperial Guard fighting off the forces of Chaos, and it's not like the Space Marines are immune to Chaos either, one will notice there is a Codex: Chaos Space Marines and not a Codex: Chaos Guard

Yes, normal human minds are more vulnerable to the corrupting influence of the Warp, but they are also capable of fighting it and don't auto-turn traitor as soon as a Daemon shows itself. That's pure fan-fantasy.

Anyone with a brain can see that Space Marines are utterly incapable of matching the Guard when it comes to conventional warfare, but then conventional warfare is not, and has never been, their role in the fighting. So pointing out that they can't do what the Guard do is pointless.

Except that half the SM fluff is basically conventional battles

On the subject of age, I guess it depends on where you come from in 40k. Sure Space Marines will know how long a 'Terra Year' is. But for regular ignorant citizens it depends entirely on how long it takes their particular planet to revolve around their sun. Assuming they have one.

Billions upon billions in the imperium probably never even see daylight, let alone know how old they are whilst they work themselves to an early grave in any of the horrible jobs they must have.

On the subject of Space Marines strength, I think that the rules from the game 'Inquisitor' suit them well.

Whatever they hit is instantly the worst kind of damage possible on a normal human being. And unless you hit a Space Marine in the head with a gun whilst they're not wearing a helmet their armor will absorb all of the damage.

Even a Boltgun will need several good hits in the same location to slow one down.

XT-1984 wrote:On the subject of Space Marines strength, I think that the rules from the game 'Inquisitor' suit them well.
Whatever they hit is instantly the worst kind of damage possible on a normal human being. And unless you hit a Space Marine in the head with a gun whilst they're not wearing a helmet their armor will absorb all of the damage.

wat

A Space Marine's power armour helmet in GW's Inquisitor game has the exact same armour value as any other power armour helmet, which is 10. Which can be breached even by a lasgun shot if you've got some luck with the dice.

 Lynata wrote:

XT-1984 wrote:On the subject of Space Marines strength, I think that the rules from the game 'Inquisitor' suit them well.
Whatever they hit is instantly the worst kind of damage possible on a normal human being. And unless you hit a Space Marine in the head with a gun whilst they're not wearing a helmet their armor will absorb all of the damage.

wat

A Space Marine's power armour helmet in GW's Inquisitor game has the exact same armour value as any other power armour helmet, which is 10. Which can be breached even by a lasgun shot if you've got some luck with the dice.

IIRC the same is true in DH - lasgun damage can go through powered armor (toughness of the critter aside).

Yeah, but there's various grades of powered armor in DH, and ... some of them are done very, very poorly. Like Marines and Sisters.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, but there's various grades of powered armor in DH, and ... some of them are done very, very poorly. Like Marines and Sisters.

Oh, I agree here. We have to houserule some powered armor usually, as well as toughness applying to DR (ever play with a Rank 11 Magos or so?)

Yeah, that annoyed me as well. I mean I can understand the IDEA of "light, cheap powered armor used for ceremonial purposes by nobles". I'm like, "okay, that's cool."

But then they try to claim that's what Sisters armor is. And I'm like "FETH YOU AND YOUR DOG, THE LORE DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS THAT."

Then they give Astartes armor two more armor points tahn Sororitas armor. And I'm like "DOUBLE FETH YOU, THE CODEX SPECIFICALLY SAYS IT PROVIDES THE SAME PROTECTION!".

There were houserules abundant.

The FFG RPG's should also be taken in their context, Space Marines in the FFG RPG's are definitely on the more "Heroic" side, as HBMC put it, they're "300" in Space, generally the best, most experienced and lavishly equipped SM's on the most dangerous missions, thus comparisons are a bit wonky. They physically can't even be hurt by a lasgun unless taken in horde magnitude and rolling decently, which we know isn't exactly correct.

Yes, they're Movie Marines, which have been outright stated to not follow the lore.

Exactly. They're fun in an RPG setting, but somewhat exaggerated from what they really should be, and too often that's not remembered.

Unit1126PLL wrote:IIRC the same is true in DH - lasgun damage can go through powered armor (toughness of the critter aside).

It can - but the problem with DH is that this ruleset applies a character's Toughness like a second set of armour. At which point even normal people in PA become invincible against lasguns. Or Arbitrators using carapace and a shield, now that I remember another dakkanaut's comment.

In Inquisitor, Toughness doesn't magically stop you from getting injured - it just "softens" the blow, for example by turning an attack that would've otherwise blown off your arm into a deep flesh wound.
The advantage of this system is obviously that people, even Space Marines, still get wounded. Astartes will just manage to take a lot more punishment than an ordinary human until they finally succumb to their injuries. As it should be.
I've been toying around with implementing this idea into DH by using Toughness like a buffer between Criticals. It's one of the few things I really dislike in the core mechanics.

Melissia wrote:Then they give Astartes armor two more armor points tahn Sororitas armor. And I'm like "DOUBLE FETH YOU, THE CODEX SPECIFICALLY SAYS IT PROVIDES THE SAME PROTECTION!".

I thought it more amusing that the Sisters of Battle apparently use civilian bolters, as per the wording in the core rulebook.

And Inquisitors get civilian Terminator armour.

Vaktathi wrote:The FFG RPG's should also be taken in their context, Space Marines in the FFG RPG's are definitely on the more "Heroic" side, as HBMC put it, they're "300" in Space, generally the best, most experienced and lavishly equipped SM's on the most dangerous missions, thus comparisons are a bit wonky. They physically can't even be hurt by a lasgun unless taken in horde magnitude and rolling decently, which we know isn't exactly correct.

Absolutely. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It gets problematic when FFG still claims that you can do crossovers without a problem, which would be like placing your own self right next to those Spartans in "300" and expecting you to have fun. And it gets even more problematic when there are some people who don't get the intentional exaggeration and claim that this, just like the Movie Marines list, is how it's "actually supposed to be".

 Vaktathi wrote:
They're not irrelevant because for all that vaunted mobility the Space Marines functionally are *NOWHERE*

"functionally" being your arbitrary fall-back point when I point out that collectively the Astartes have participated in basically every major event that's ever existed since their conception. Trying to point out that they aren't in as many places as the Guard is, again, a non-sequitier.

This is, of course, on top of the fact that they go where they want, when they want, and so even if available and in the area, aren't necessarily guaranteed to make an appearance by any means. No SM chapter would commit to Vraks until the IG had been engaged for years and still wouldn't commit to the main battle until the war had been going on for over a decade. And then of course you run the risk of getting a chapter that just decides to up and leave for its own reasons leaving the task undone, like the DA's and their successors are described as doing quite often.

And then on the other hand you get chapters like the Salamanders and Ultramarines, who jump into the fray before the Guard even get there, or the Avenging Sons who got their literally years before the Guard did. It took a Cadian regiment 50 years to get to a combat theater, and the Death Korps bombed a city that had surrendered for like 6 months. I guess aaallll Guard regiments are bumbling incompetents.

Then there's still the whole thing about them somehow always knowing exactly when and where to strike despite not having an intelligence apparatus and not exactly always having excellent relationships and information exchanges with other Imperial entities.

The Guard are the exact same way. Welcome to the Imperium, welcome to a universe where Military Fiction isn't written by people with military experience.

And yet other times the IG makes it to the battle in far less time, another factor heavily dependent on author. IIRC the Munitorum landed the first troops on Vraks much faster.

And quite often they don't. We're at an impasse. D:

On what basis is this made? Daemons in and of themselves don't shatter the minds of guardsmen,

We have plenty of examples of exactly that happening as well.

and it's not like the Space Marines are immune to Chaos either, one will notice there is a Codex: Chaos Space Marines and not a Codex: Chaos Guard

Yeah, 'cause Humans aren't powerful enough to have their own Chaos dex. They just get shoe-horned into the Space Marine one as Slaves.

[Yes, normal human minds are more vulnerable to the corrupting influence of the Warp, but they are also capable of fighting it and don't auto-turn traitor as soon as a Daemon shows itself. That's pure fan-fantasy.

No, the huge majority of Humans can't cope with fighting daemons. They can't even cope with fighting aliens and each other. That's why Commisars exist.

Except that half the SM fluff is basically conventional battles

No it isn't.

BlaxicanX wrote:functionally" being your arbitrary fall-back point when I point out that collectively the Astartes have participated in basically every major event that's ever existed since their conception.

Because the one's the SM's are written into are generally the only ones they talk about, or are so big that *everything* is involved. There are plenty of of conflicts in which the SM's never make an appearance, but given that SM's are the center of the story, they of course are usually the ones mentioned.

Trying to point out that they aren't in as many places as the Guard is, again, a non-sequitier.

Only in sofar as most 40k fluff is based around the rare few battles the SM's participate in. The vast majority of the Imperium's wars never see a single Space Marine.

And then on the other hand you get chapters like the Salamanders and Ultramarines, who jump into the fray before the Guard even get there, or the Avenging Sons who got their literally years before the Guard did. It took a Cadian regiment 50 years to get to a combat theater, and the Death Korps bombed a city that had surrendered for like 6 months. I guess aaallll Guard regiments are bumbling incompetents.

I'm not saying the SM's don't often make it there before the IG does *when they do appear*, I'm saying that they're so often never even around that the IG somehow manages where quite simply no SM's exist in the overwhelmingly vast majority of the Imperium's wars. Then again, they also frequently don't show up until long after the party has started either.

I'm not entirely familiar with the Cadian story your referring to here (at least not off the top of my head) though I'm assuming that had something to do with Warp stuff in which case that just as easily happens to Space Marines and has nothing to do with being IG or not.

The DKoK story is being misrepresented here, that was about sending a message and making a point, which basically was "fething with the Munitorum is a really really really bad idea".

The Guard are the exact same way. Welcome to the Imperium, welcome to a universe where Military Fiction isn't written by people with military experience.

While yes, much of the Imperium is dysfunctional, the Imperial Guard does have intelligence apparatus and interacts far more with other Imperial entities, unlike SM chapters which are mini-empires unto themselves and largely autarkic.

We have plenty of examples of exactly that happening as well

Where do guardsmen just drop dead or instantly turn traitor as soon as a Daemon shows up? At least where there hasn't already been some sort of long term corruption involved?

Besides, Daemons are, relative to everything else, an extremely rare foe that is rarely encountered, and that SM's would be needed in every instance would be silly as they themselves are just as rare if not rarer than Daemonic incursions and aren't an anti-daemon specialized force either. Having SM's to counter Daemons would, more often than not, be the rarest of occurrences indeed, except in situations where calls had been longstanding and loud.

Yeah, 'cause Humans aren't powerful enough to have their own Chaos dex. They just get shoe-horned into the Space Marine one as Slaves.

Not really, Cultists aren't Traitor Guard... they're Cultists, they're not equipped to the same level as guardsmen nor can they even be upgraded to that level. They aren't the same thing at all.

No, the huge majority of Humans can't cope with fighting daemons.

Your average human? No. Your average trained soldier? Sure they can. It's not the daemons, it's the proximity exposure to the Warp that eventually contaminates everything be it human, space marine, or other. Daemons in and of themselves aren't something beyond the abilities of the IG to combat, the Mordian Iron Guard, 13th Mordant, and Gaunts Ghosts are an excellent examples.

They can't even cope with fighting aliens and each other. That's why Commisars exist.

Most regiments have a single Commissar out of several thousand troops, who isn't there routinely executing people for cowardice, but dealing with occasional major breaches in discipline, making sure certain tenets are known and adhered to, and advising command staff on organizational and command matters as well as interfacing with regiments from other worlds. You're grossly over-exaggerating their necessity.

No it isn't.

No, it really is, a lot of it is rather conventional battles. Storming rebel hives, holding actions, sieges, etc, those would definitely fall under conventional battle actions.

Space Marines are so rare, the galaxy so huge, the Imperium so vast, and its enemies so numerous, that the overwhelming majority of battles-- that is, >99% of them-- have no heads nor tails of Space Marines.

 Lynata wrote:

XT-1984 wrote:On the subject of Space Marines strength, I think that the rules from the game 'Inquisitor' suit them well.
Whatever they hit is instantly the worst kind of damage possible on a normal human being. And unless you hit a Space Marine in the head with a gun whilst they're not wearing a helmet their armor will absorb all of the damage.

wat

A Space Marine's power armour helmet in GW's Inquisitor game has the exact same armour value as any other power armour helmet, which is 10. Which can be breached even by a lasgun shot if you've got some luck with the dice.

Yes, but doesn't a Space Marine have a Toughness (or whatever its called in Inquisitor) of 150 odd? And lets be honest, Armor 10 on the Head was pretty massive. I don't remember the exact details, I haven't played it for years and I can't find my rulebook.

I thought a Lasgun had a Damage of something like 2D6 +4. So yes you could penetrate the armor but you wouldn't score over his Toughness to inflict the first level of damage. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember them being impervious to all but the deadliest weapons.

And the chance to hit a Space Marine in his Head whilst he isn't wearing a Helmet, and then roll high enough to damage him four times from a range (with a Lasgun), whilst he is moving and firing back at you was very low. But of course we aren't just talking about one person with a Lasgun. Although I doubt ten people would fair much better unless the Space Marine didn't attack them back.

Anyhow I am intrigued now, if you can correct me on this I would like to hear back from you. Inquisitor was fun whilst it lasted.

XT-1984 wrote:Yes, but doesn't a Space Marine have a Toughness (or whatever its called in Inquisitor) of 150 odd?

He has, but it won't prevent him from being injured. It just means the wound won't be that bad.
This would change quickly when the next shot hits him and he is nudged down another level on the injury chart. And so on.

In FFG's RPGs, these shots would just harmlessly bounce off their superhuman body. By the rules, you could stab a naked Space Marine a million times with a knife and not achieve anything as not being wounded at all means all this damage won't "stack" in any way; like it does in the Inquisitor game.

But yes, Armor 10 is massive. I mean, even a lasgun has a ~16% chance to punch through and injure the guy (which, interestingly, fits exactly to the fluff about Astartes power armour protection in the Codex:AoD), but the suit will take a lot of oomph out of just about any weapon. You may get injured, but you won't go down quickly!

XT-1984 wrote:I thought a Lasgun had a Damage of something like 2D6 +4. So yes you could penetrate the armor but you wouldn't score over his Toughness to inflict the first level of damage. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember them being impervious to all but the deadliest weapons.

You actually had me worried I'd have misunderstood the rules for a minute ... but no, I just rechecked the PDF hosted on GW's website:

"In addition, each location has a number of injury levels which may be inflicted: Light, Heavy, Serious, Acute and Crippled. If a hit inflicts damage up to the character's Base Injury value, it does one level of damage. [...]"

Meaning, anything that goes through the armour will give you at least a Light Injury, with your Toughness (-> the Base Injury value) determining if it remains a Light Injury or gets worse.
A Space Marine has Toughness 150, which means a Base Injury value of 15. Any attack would thus need to do more than 25 damage in order to inflict more than a Light injury with the first hit.

And as a followup, the very next shot that hits this location would make it at least a Heavy Injury, regardless of how much damage comes through. Shoot the Marine's head four times (the head only has 4 injury levels) with a lasgun and he's a goner! Of course, he will suffer injury effects (being stunned, getting slower, going into system shock, ...) well before this point.

As for the lasgun, the standard models do 2d6. However, the Triplex-pattern has a charge slider (also mentioned in the IG Codex), and on the higher settings it does either 2d6+3 or 2d6+5.
Maybe you were half thinking of boltguns? Those do 2d10+4.

From what I've been told, there was a different issue with Space Marines in Inquisitor, namely that all characters had the ability recover injury levels between the rounds. Just the Astartes had such a high Toughness score that he'd be almost guaranteed to regenerate back to full health in the next turn... so you'd basically have to kill him in a single round.
That's actually a pretty big flaw with the system ...