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2013/01/15 14:36:37
Subject: Re:States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
I'm curious as a complete outsider here.
While I can understand that some of you feel they have the right to keep and bear arms as part of the 'cultural identity' of being an American, I find it hard to understand why some of you need to own so many?
One argument, I've seen presented here, is that the 2nd requires the maintenance of a well regulated milita, but what militia requires more than a sidearm and longarm?
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
2013/01/16 01:42:53
Subject: States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
While I can understand that some of you feel they have the right to keep and bear arms as part of the 'cultural identity' of being an American, I find it hard to understand why some of you need to own so many?
They're (for the most part) enthusiasts who purchase, and practice with weapons as a hobby rather than out of practical concerns. Of course there are also people who the apocalypse, or some kind of impending totalitarian regime, but they're very much in the minority.
Its similar to to the difference between the person who owns one utilitarian car, and the person who owns several of various design purpose.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2013/01/16 02:01:46
Subject: Re:States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
Easy E wrote: Yeah, hence why I said "at best" economists are divided on the topic.
Sure, and I should concede I overstated my point a little in my earlier post. There is considerable debate on macroeconomics, but those debating points aren't on points the economics of maths. No-one will debate whether the increasing government spending will increase overall demand, the debate will be more on whether or not you should do this (the freshwater school will tell you that recessions either don't exist, are good for the economy, or are natural responses within the market - people choosing not to look for work).
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and listen to what other have to say. In my limited experience you can't tell anyone anything or force them to believe a what you are saying. However, you can lead them to ask questions and gain understanding for themselves.
That's realy well put, and is a great way to approach a lot of discussion.
The problem, I think, is that too many people who know little or nothing about a subject come in not looking to learn, but to tell everyone what they think. They can't be led to ask because they think they know all about the subject already. When discussing a subject with someone like that, you need first of all to break down
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/01/16 02:07:29
Subject: Re:States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
The problem, I think, is that too many people who know little or nothing about a subject come in not looking to learn, but to tell everyone what they think. They can't be led to ask because they think they know all about the subject already. When discussing a subject with someone like that, you need first of all to break down
A lesson I learned teaching Introduction to International Politics whenever the subject of the UN came up.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2013/01/16 02:30:19
Subject: States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
While I can understand that some of you feel they have the right to keep and bear arms as part of the 'cultural identity' of being an American, I find it hard to understand why some of you need to own so many?
One argument, I've seen presented here, is that the 2nd requires the maintenance of a well regulated milita, but what militia requires more than a sidearm and longarm?
Cheers
Andrew
A carry gun.
A duplicate back-up for if/when the carry gun goes down for maintenance.
A shotgun for the house.
A duplicate back-up for if/when the shotgun goes down for maintenance.
That's technically all I need. I have more than that; I bought an HK45C to act as my carry gun before I discovered I didn't like it as much as the P30, and I just haven't gotten around to selling it. Anyone who takes any pleasure at all in shooting owns a 1911, so I own a couple of those as well.
2013/01/16 02:53:41
Subject: States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
While I can understand that some of you feel they have the right to keep and bear arms as part of the 'cultural identity' of being an American, I find it hard to understand why some of you need to own so many?
One argument, I've seen presented here, is that the 2nd requires the maintenance of a well regulated milita, but what militia requires more than a sidearm and longarm?
Cheers
Andrew
Do you own tools? Or paint brushes for models perhaps? Why do you need more then one hammer? Or more them one paint brush? Different tools for different jobs. Then there's collectors who stack various historical firearms. Examples:
I know a guy who owns one of every primary infantry rifle (and a couple specialty rifles) used by the United States since 1775. (M1A and AR-15 semiautomatic rifles obviously stand in for the more modern stuff). I know several people with collections of WW2 weapons, ranging from variants of M1 Garands to one fellow who's looking to collect /all/ the things.
While I can understand that some of you feel they have the right to keep and bear arms as part of the 'cultural identity' of being an American, I find it hard to understand why some of you need to own so many?
They're (for the most part) enthusiasts who purchase, and practice with weapons as a hobby rather than out of practical concerns. Of course there are also people who the apocalypse, or some kind of impending totalitarian regime, but they're very much in the minority.
Its similar to to the difference between the person who owns one utilitarian car, and the person who owns several of various design purpose.
Not going to tease you for the phrasing, but a solid survival rifle/bug out bag never hurt any one. Even the CDC's on board with the whole Zombie Apocalypse thing because being prepared for that means you're prepared for pretty much any other basic emergency situation as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/16 02:56:31
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
New York's ridiculous laws, unsurprisingly, got rammed through by the Democratic legislature. I'm curious if manufacturers are going to start making 7-round mags, or if NY's just SOL.
2013/01/16 03:14:36
Subject: Re:States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
Seaward wrote: New York's ridiculous laws, unsurprisingly, got rammed through by the Democratic legislature. I'm curious if manufacturers are going to start making 7-round mags, or if NY's just SOL.
What does 7 rounds vs. 10 rounds really do in the first place? Besides annoy 1911 owners.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Seaward wrote: New York's ridiculous laws, unsurprisingly, got rammed through by the Democratic legislature. I'm curious if manufacturers are going to start making 7-round mags, or if NY's just SOL.
What does 7 rounds vs. 10 rounds really do in the first place? Besides annoy 1911 owners.
Make clueless idiots feel like they've done something for the public good.
Guarantee everyone just kicks up to .45.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/16 03:16:30
2013/01/16 03:17:03
Subject: Re:States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
We know from the gun owner map that very few people in New York will be affected anyway. There are only a few hundred pistol licences in effect, from what I can remember of it.
Kilkrazy wrote: We know from the gun owner map that very few people in New York will be affected anyway. There are only a few hundred pistol licences in effect, from what I can remember of it.
I thought that map was only for two counties, not the whole state?
Not going to tease you for the phrasing, but a solid survival rifle/bug out bag never hurt any one. Even the CDC's on board with the whole Zombie Apocalypse thing because being prepared for that means you're prepared for pretty much any other basic emergency situation as well.
General preparedness isn't quite the same thing as stockpiling weapons and ammunition.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2013/01/16 06:41:57
Subject: Re:States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
Bruce Reed, Vice President Biden’s chief of staff, told liberal activists late Tuesday that Obama’s package would also include a federal gun trafficking measure to stop straw-man purchases and crack down on trafficking rings after a number of mayors raised the issue, said a person familiar with the plan.
Obama also is expected to present up to 19 executive actions that his administration will take, the lawmakers and advocates said. These steps include enhanced federal scientific research on gun violence and a modernized federal database system to track guns, criminals and the mentally ill.
Most of these actions are relatively narrow in scope, however, and experts have said that without accompanying legislation they will do little to curb gun violence, at least in the near term.
Asked about the constraints on Obama’s executive powers, Carney said, “It is a simple fact that there are limits on what can be done within existing law.”
.............
Already, there are warning signs about the hurdles Obama’s agenda may face on Capitol Hill. Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) said it would be exceedingly difficult to pass an assault-weapons ban, which appears to be the most polarizing of Obama’s proposals.
“Let’s be realistic,” Reid told a Nevada PBS affiliate last week. “In the Senate, we’re going to do what we think can get through the House, and I’m not going to go through a bunch of these gyrations just to say we’ve done something.”
House Democratic Whip Steny H. Hoyer (Md.) echoed that calculation on Tuesday by acknowledging the difficulties that gun-control legislation would face in the Republican-led House.
“That’s been the case based on past history,” Hoyer told reporters.
Looks like Harry Reid has gun owners back or at least accepts reality. So that's solid. Here's a real question I want feedback on guys. What would we as gun owners accept or even push for for gun control? An AWB's unacceptable, a mag ban's stupid and untenable. However, Universal Background Checks might be a pain in the ass, but I don't see a problem with it. Annoying for me if I want to sell off a rifle or whatever? Yes. Really bad news for the law abiding? No. Especially if they can set up a method to allow Joe Citizen to do a background check for firearms sales purposes on his own without going through an FFL. Increased control on handguns maybe? Those seem to be the primary issue when it comes to actual violence in this country. What we know about the Big O's proposed executive orders don't seem terrible either. Criminal, Mental health tracking, Federal crack down on strawman buys/weapons trafficking. All of that sounds like stuff that's gonna keep guns out of the hands of the bad guys. I mean nothing major's gonna happen till we improve education across the board, get the economy out of the s bend and kick poverty hard in the dangly bits but these things could actually do some good.
Not going to tease you for the phrasing, but a solid survival rifle/bug out bag never hurt any one. Even the CDC's on board with the whole Zombie Apocalypse thing because being prepared for that means you're prepared for pretty much any other basic emergency situation as well.
General preparedness isn't quite the same thing as stockpiling weapons and ammunition.
Sure but having a gun, knowing how to use it and having ammo to hand is never a bad idea for general preparedness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/16 06:44:49
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Looks like Harry Reid has gun owners back or at least accepts reality. So that's solid. Here's a real question I want feedback on guys. What would we as gun owners accept or even push for for gun control? An AWB's unacceptable, a mag ban's stupid and untenable. However, Universal Background Checks might be a pain in the ass, but I don't see a problem with it. Annoying for me if I want to sell off a rifle or whatever? Yes. Really bad news for the law abiding? No. Especially if they can set up a method to allow Joe Citizen to do a background check for firearms sales purposes on his own without going through an FFL. Increased control on handguns maybe? Those seem to be the primary issue when it comes to actual violence in this country. What we know about the Big O's proposed executive orders don't seem terrible either. Criminal, Mental health tracking, Federal crack down on strawman buys/weapons trafficking. All of that sounds like stuff that's gonna keep guns out of the hands of the bad guys. I mean nothing major's gonna happen till we improve education across the board, get the economy out of the s bend and kick poverty hard in the dangly bits but these things could actually do some good.
The Executive Orders seem sensible, during the interview it seemed like he was focusing on things he could do within the DOJ and other agencies dealing with the criminal side of things. Definetly not coming across as jackboot brownshirts coming to take our guns away.
AWB and mag bans deal with symptoms and are just safety theater without any real actual impact. I know why they want to do it (they look scary and the people think we are doing something effective) but it's a wasted effort. The only benefit of proposing them would probably be being able to drop them later for some sort of compromise.
Universal Background checks would be a good thing, my only question would be the enforcement of it. How do you make sure that people do the checks? I have not looked into the proposals that much so I don't know.
2013/01/16 08:11:19
Subject: States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
Kilkrazy wrote: We know from the gun owner map that very few people in New York will be affected anyway. There are only a few hundred pistol licences in effect, from what I can remember of it.
I thought that map was only for two counties, not the whole state?
Yes, it is two counties, Westchester and Rockland. So probably several thousand people for the whole state.
Looks like Harry Reid has gun owners back or at least accepts reality.
No Harry Reid certainly doesn't have the gun owner's back. He's just trying to keep his track record of only permitting one bill to hit the floor a year intact, and they have to act on that Potato Day resolution.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/01/16 13:06:09
Subject: States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Do you own tools? Or paint brushes for models perhaps? Why do you need more then one hammer? Or more them one paint brush? Different tools for different jobs. Then there's collectors who stack various historical firearms. Examples:
I know a guy who owns one of every primary infantry rifle (and a couple specialty rifles) used by the United States since 1775. (M1A and AR-15 semiautomatic rifles obviously stand in for the more modern stuff). I know several people with collections of WW2 weapons, ranging from variants of M1 Garands to one fellow who's looking to collect /all/ the things.
You see I dont get that argument. I understand what you are saying, I just don't 'get' it.
As you say different tools for different jobs, so please explain why, hypothetically, a person would need (pulls figure from air) 6 handguns? What different jobs do those items perform?
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
2013/01/16 13:07:19
Subject: States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
AndrewC wrote: While I can understand that some of you feel they have the right to keep and bear arms as part of the 'cultural identity' of being an American, I find it hard to understand why some of you need to own so many?
Let's see.
- My father, grandfather and myself all hunted together - 3x rifles, 3x shotguns, 3x 22s for a total of 9 (different firearms are REQUIRED by state LAW to be used for hunting different types of game)
- My grandfather has historical firearms from World War 2 - 2 more
- My father, grandfather and I all have a pistol of some sort - 3 more
- My father and I have multiple calibers for deer hunting due to hunting conditions and range - call it 4 more.
My father and grandfather passed away and I inherited all the firearm; ending up with 18+ from pretty legitimate reasons. All of them have sentimental value and I would only sell them under duress.
CSM Undivided
CSM Khorne
2013/01/16 13:16:47
Subject: States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
AndrewC wrote: While I can understand that some of you feel they have the right to keep and bear arms as part of the 'cultural identity' of being an American, I find it hard to understand why some of you need to own so many?
Let's see.
- My father, grandfather and myself all hunted together - 3x rifles, 3x shotguns, 3x 22s for a total of 9 (different firearms are REQUIRED by state LAW to be used for hunting different types of game)
- My grandfather has historical firearms from World War 2 - 2 more
- My father, grandfather and I all have a pistol of some sort - 3 more
- My father and I have multiple calibers for deer hunting due to hunting conditions and range - call it 4 more.
My father and grandfather passed away and I inherited all the firearm; ending up with 18+ from pretty legitimate reasons. All of them have sentimental value and I would only sell them under duress.
However in this case you actually only owned 4 weapons all for a specific purpose, and the other 14 were inherited as opposed to bought, I am trying to understand the mindset that says I will buy and own as many firearms as I want.
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
2013/01/16 13:19:26
Subject: Re:States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Looks like Harry Reid has gun owners back or at least accepts reality. So that's solid. Here's a real question I want feedback on guys.
If a Politicians lips are moving, he's lying.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: What would we as gun owners accept or even push for for gun control? An AWB's unacceptable, a mag ban's stupid and untenable. However, Universal Background Checks might be a pain in the ass, but I don't see a problem with it. Annoying for me if I want to sell off a rifle or whatever? Yes. Really bad news for the law abiding? No. Especially if they can set up a method to allow Joe Citizen to do a background check for firearms sales purposes on his own without going through an FFL. Increased control on handguns maybe? Those seem to be the primary issue when it comes to actual violence in this country.
Depends on the implementation. If it's in a manner which is easily accessible and not cost prohibitive, like current internet transfers, not a big deal. If it is done so the firearm has to pass through the dealers books, thus making him buy it and then resell it, that is a big problem.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: What we know about the Big O's proposed executive orders don't seem terrible either. Criminal, Mental health tracking,
How?
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Federal crack down on strawman buys/weapons trafficking. All of that sounds like stuff that's gonna keep guns out of the hands of the bad guys.
See operation Fast and Furious where the ATF actively trafficked guns to Mexico, under FFL protest.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: I mean nothing major's gonna happen till we improve education across the board, get the economy out of the s bend and kick poverty hard in the dangly bits but these things could actually do some good.
I concur, but I don't see any EOs or proposed legislation on that. Only legislation on "let's ban X, Y and Z".
CSM Undivided
CSM Khorne
2013/01/16 13:31:11
Subject: Re:States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
AndrewC wrote: However in this case you actually only owned 4 weapons all for a specific purpose, and the other 14 were inherited as opposed to bought, I am trying to understand the mindset that says I will buy and own as many firearms as I want.
Not sure I am getting you, all firearms are bought for specific purpose. People buy multiple firearms for all kinds of reasons. The tool example above is a very good analogy. People end up with hordes of tools for no other reason they fill some purpose, even though that purpose may duplicate with another similar tool. People collect all kinds of stuff that is fundamentally a copy of another similar item, the same question could be posed to them and I doubt you'll get one consistent answer.
CSM Undivided
CSM Khorne
2013/01/16 13:33:37
Subject: States (and cities) propose legislation to nullify federal gun legislation
d-usa wrote: Gotta love that we are using the kids as a prop:
(I know the box isn't labeled "gun control" but still...)
Someone was joking that he would unveil his latest gimic surrounded by kids. Lo and behold here come the youngling props.
As expected, there will be no proposals addressing the mental health industry, and the ability for authorities to actually do something when they find out about a crazy wackjob, nor anything on the video game or movie industry. Just guns.
How typical.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/16 13:37:25
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Thanks for deep diving Seb... I was only skimming the surface. 
CSM Undivided
CSM Khorne 
