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"Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this rule and Terminator armour can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Traits, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves."

So, based on the above are Deathwing officially in reserve?

Yes, of course they are in reserves. They just have a special rule that they automatically come in on Turn 1, that you must declare to your opponent right after rolling for warlord traits.

Please explain. It doesn't state to place them in reserve. You're not deepstriking or outflanking. You're Deathwing Assaulting which has it's own rule.

Bear in mind this is purely for the sake of discussion. I have no vested interest but it's always good to have solid arguments for when it comes up either way

In order for a unit to Deep Strike, it has to be coming in from Reserves. Drop Pods get put in reserves, and just like the Deathwing have a rule that lets some come in on first turn.

When you use the psychic power Gate are you in reserves? Or that summoning power from Grey Knights?

Gate of Infinity:

"The Libraririan, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules"

"You're not deepstriking or outflanking"

"All units making the Deathwing assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike"

Think you missed that. They are arriving via DS. Summoning/Gate must be used on models already on the table

Gate is an exception allowing models not in reserves to be redeployed like they were deep striking and following all the rules for it.

@ veidin

That's for the deepstrike special rule. Which has it's own special rule now.

I would say you use the rule Arriving By Deep Strike. And take the no need for rolling for reserves to replace that portion of it.

Like I said, just debating stuff people are going to throw out there.

I dont have my GK book with me, but Mordrak has a rule called First to the Fray I believe that lets him arrive turn 1 via DS and not scattering. Anyone able to see if that has the wording "reserves" anywhere? Would be a good guideline or comparable ability to look at for wording at least.

Good call, I'll check when I get home.

As a secondary point for it not being reserve I'd point to the time you have to declare it. It's not being declared during deployment as Reserves are. It's being done prior to deployment. Just another thing to think about.

Wouldn’t "there is no need to roll for reserves." imply they start in reserves? As if it didn’t start it reserves that line wouldn’t be necessary.

The next dark angels codex will be here in a week and should help shed light on this. I always assumed they were in reserves and I could bring half of them on turn 1 like a drop pod.

At the beginning of your first turn, you may choose up to half (rounding up_ of the deathwing terminator squads kept in reserve to make a deathwing assault.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Unless the new dex changed this.

The crazy thing is necrons can bring their entire reserve when this happens as well if they have Zahndrekh and they are deep striking which all their fliers can.

They can't deepstrike unless in reserve.
The Gate power can't be use as an argument, as the gate power tells you to remove the model from the board, allowing it to deepstrike. Deathwing Assault doesn't.
If they're not in reserve, they're on the table. The rule doesn't allow them to be removed, so Deepstriking isn't possible. The game breaks.
So if they're in reserve, all good. If not in reserve the game breaks and the rule does nothing.

If they are deepstriking the only place they can be is in reserve. Its just you dont have to roll for them to come on, they come on automatically.

@Tombking

The rule is from the new dex.

@Thread

I can see where you guys are coming from. Now a follow-up. Would they count toward the 50% of your army that can start in reserve?

Absolutely. There's a general rule saying that anything in reserve counts against it and nothing saying they don't.

General rule says anything that doesn't have to start in reserve. I'd say that since the DWA rule is in play before actual deployment they have to deploy from reserve and so wouldn't count.

Refute my point!

 Hulksmash wrote:
General rule says anything that doesn't have to start in reserve. I'd say that since the DWA rule is in play before actual deployment they have to deploy from reserve and so wouldn't count.

Refute my point!

Either they start deployed or in reserves right?

If they're not A; they must be B?

How I see it in this case.

Unless otherwise stated yes. though if i recal atleast on one rumor blogs it stated it didnt count twards the 50%

also the only way to bring them on the field is via deepstrike, meening they must start in reserves. no other way to play DWA and there for mandatory it dosnt count twards the 50% right?

@jdjamesdean@mail.com

My point is the rule is instituted before deployment. Ergo they start deployment required to deepstrike onto the field with no option to be deployed. So they wouldn't count toward the 50%.

When rules take place order is important. Thoughts!

Deathwing making Deathwing Assault don't count for the 50% rule because they *have* to start in reserve to make use of the DWA rule.

Some with Drop Pods and DPA.

Not the same, because Drop Pods never have the ability to deploy on the table. Deathwing have the option to be deployed.

Presently the only things you ignore for Reserve purposes are units which NEVER have the option to deploy, and models inside transports which never have the option to deploy.

The units in pods then should count toward the 50% as they can choose to deploy.

Drop pod armies are completely illegal by that logic.

 ansacs wrote:
The units in pods then should count toward the 50% as they can choose to deploy.

Drop pod armies are completely illegal by that logic.

Except there is a specific exemption for Drop Pod passengers. They are not counted because the rules specifically say they do not count for the calculation.

Therefore Drop pod armies are completely legal.

 ansacs wrote:
The units in pods then should count toward the 50% as they can choose to deploy.

Drop pod armies are completely illegal by that logic.

Right. Except that the deep strike rules explicitly tells us not to count any models inside a vehicle which always deep strikes.

And the main rulebook FAQ expands that by telling us not to count any models inside any transport that always starts in reserve. Prior to that FAQ, I always counted the units inside my Storm Ravens against the Reserve limit.

 Hulksmash wrote:
General rule says anything that doesn't have to start in reserve. I'd say that since the DWA rule is in play before actual deployment they have to deploy from reserve and so wouldn't count.

Refute my point!

Are you forced to DWA or is it an option?

You choose to dwa after warlord and before deployment. Dwa critically does not say the units are in reserve when using dwa, it says they automatically arrive via deep strike on a chosen turn.

During deployment, dwa units are still units. Because dwa is not specific, units that are death wing assaulting need to go into reserve as deep strikers. After all, the rule makes no sense if you dwa out of outflanking, or dwa while being deployed on the table.

It seems to me that you can declare dwa, and then during deployment still deploy normally as dwa does not put you in reserve, only change when you come in if you reserve as a deep striker during deployment. In this case your dwa ability to arrive via deep strike without rolling for reserve would do nothing.

"All units making the Deathwing assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves."

"

You arrive via Deep Strike, not by using the DS rules. You are required therefore to be in reserve, as that is how you arrive by Deep Strike. Being place by the DS rules is a different phrase with a subtly different meaning, as it is only the placement that follows the rules, ergo you only follow the placement rules for DS - not the others.

They count towards the 50%, but have an allowance to be in reserves

Of course they are in reserve, for the reasons brilliantly explained by Nosferatu.

Isnt it in the rule book, anything not on the table at turn 1 is in reserves?