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 Peregrine wrote:

 DPBellathrom wrote:
if you bring something like a LR or any AV14 tank to a game that small you really need to re-think your list. any army with a melta, rail or lance gun will have it out of the game in a flash and thats a good chunk of your army gone.

Except the list that brings melta is going to be weak against the lists with no vehicles (since they can't bring any anti-infantry weapons) so it's all rock/paper/scissors. Meanwhile even if the other player does have a melta gun that's still only one anti-tank weapon, you need more than that to consistently deal with AV 14 and many 500 point armies simply can't bring it. AV 14 might not be 100% invulnerable, but it certainly wins a lot of 500 point games before any models are even deployed.

I would also have to argue strongly that it's just blind guessing. if anything it forces you to make an all comers list and really think about your army and what you can or can't take to stop you from ever getting into the rock paper scissors problem

The point is that you can't make an all-comers list in a 500 point game. No army is capable of covering all possible threats (at least with any hope of dealing with them, "shoot bolters into rear armor" is not valid AA, for example) so you have to pick one or two potential threats and hope you don't end up fighting the ones you didn't pick.

What? Dark Eldar and IG both have a very easy time covering all bases. DE got any AV covered and any horde/MC threat covered aswell. As for Air, they have the same issue they tend to have regardless, spam AA fire with ground assets and hope for the best.

I can see how investing strictly into one thing would make your list suck, ie all AT, All anti horde, all anti MEQ, but usually our best best is a TAC squad with a lascannon, blobbed kabalites with AT, IG in chimeras with lascannons and a hydra, none of these lists are impossible at 500 and all can deal with all threats soundly.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
People should just play the old Combat Patrol variant from 4th edition, which is basically the 40K in 40 minutes.

500 point games in general shouldn't take 50+ minutes.

"40K in 40 Minutes" was the cute nickname they gave to the special rules they made for very small games, not the actual time to play. They were basically made to play games during a lunch hour, etc.

Here are the basics:

-Armies are no more than 400 points (though we sometimes raise that to 500 or more for slightly bigger games)

-You must have one Troops choice.

-You may have no more than one HQ choice.

-You may spend the remaining points on any choice form the Codex for that army.

-No models may have more than 2 wounds.

-No special Characters.

-No 2+ saves of any sort.

-No vehicles can have a total armor (Front+one Side+ Rear) of more than 33.

-No Ordnance weapons.

-Use Combat Patrol mission: 12" deployment zones, usually 4x4 table, basic deployment, victory points to win.

-If a unit has a compulsory character that breaks the rules above, leaver them out and don't pay for them.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
but usually our best best is a TAC squad with a lascannon

Let's look at this as the perfect example:

HQ:
bare-minimum model -- 100
Troops:
Tacticals x10, LC -- 180
Tacticals x10, LC -- 180

Total: 460 points.

See any problems there? You just brought the minimum necessary to be even a remotely credible threat to AV 14, you used up all of your points (so no other units besides your mediocre tactical squads and naked HQ), and you still don't even have that much of a counter to AV 14. Meanwhile you have nothing against aircraft, and only your basic boltguns to deal with the Ork player who brings a KFF and 70 boyz (or a KFF, six "missile launcher" big gunz, and 50 boyz). IOW, you might get lucky and stop AV 14 in time, but you probably get tabled against the horde or aircraft player. Do you really feel that you have a true TAC list here?

Small battles can be fun. It really gives people a chance to find the best units to include with limited points. It also makes each model worth more both in game and fluff wise. Theres nothing like the heroic last stand of the vet sarge against a bunch of orks in a small game

TAC lists are a lot easier at under 750 points, when you don't have AV14 cheese (for that size game) on the field. That's why the official GW format for such small games (at least during 4th/5th) only allows you to field 33points of Armor. Small game tanks are supposed to be Razorbacks and Wave Serpents.

Small games are supposed to be small skirmishes. If I don't have to worry about AV 14 or flyers, two things which are OP for that format, I can easily make a list that will be fun to play, with any army.

Crazy saves, huge toughness and wounds, flyers, huge tanks and the like are meant for full-on battles, not games of 750 or less. They are two small patrols meeting one another, not a group of guys trying to take out a Land Raider.

Like everyone else is saying, 500 point games makes it difficult to build an all-corners list.

That being said, usually you play by the "Combat Patrol" or "40k in 40 Minutes" rules, which limit armies so they can't be ridiculous.

Also I find these small games are far less competitive than higher point games, so most people I've played at this point level don't take it too seriously, thus don't build cheesy lists.

They make for a lot of fun when you treat them as a lot of fun.

Also easier on the budget and time frame to collect multiple armies.

I like to play big battles, throwing everything in that I can. But I also vary with smaller battles. They are different challenge and very fun. But normally when I play with others we do not require an HQ unit to be selected, it is optional. Also if we play a 1000 point game we may limit the heavy slot to just 1 or if we play smaller than 1000 points we have no heavy slots and just choose from the troops, fast attack, and elites. We still require the 2 x troops though. They tend to be fun and closer matches at least for me. Provides a little more of a challenge at times.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
TAC lists are a lot easier at under 750 points, when you don't have AV14 cheese (for that size game) on the field. That's why the official GW format for such small games (at least during 4th/5th) only allows you to field 33points of Armor. Small game tanks are supposed to be Razorbacks and Wave Serpents.

There were no official rules for smaller games. There was a separate "40k in 40 minutes" game which is an alternate way of playing 40k, but according to the standard rules a 500 point game is just a game played at 500 points, there are no special rules at all involved.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
but usually our best best is a TAC squad with a lascannon

Let's look at this as the perfect example:

HQ:
bare-minimum model -- 100
Troops:
Tacticals x10, LC -- 180
Tacticals x10, LC -- 180

Total: 460 points.

See any problems there? You just brought the minimum necessary to be even a remotely credible threat to AV 14, you used up all of your points (so no other units besides your mediocre tactical squads and naked HQ), and you still don't even have that much of a counter to AV 14. Meanwhile you have nothing against aircraft, and only your basic boltguns to deal with the Ork player who brings a KFF and 70 boyz (or a KFF, six "missile launcher" big gunz, and 50 boyz). IOW, you might get lucky and stop AV 14 in time, but you probably get tabled against the horde or aircraft player. Do you really feel that you have a true TAC list here?

You are looking at it in a lopsided comparison though, that tac squad with 10 Marines and a Lascannon is trading fire with that Landraider at equal or greater range. And while any single hot roll can cost that LR its ass, not the same can be said for the TAC Marines who can take cover and use their squad as an ablative wound shield. Not to mention you losing 4-6 marines to return fire isnt the same as him losing half his army in a pop.

As for the Boyz, I'd only pick up a single tac squad and invest the rest in a Thunderfirecannon or a whirlwind with a compliment of scout marines. Frankly, its the reason i love small games because a bare list can do just fine you just have to think deeper into your decisions. That TFC and Whirlwind could also do well against Eldar or DE or even some hunkered down IG! And as for any scenario its the reason I like DE so much, they are very tricky in what they can bring!

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
nd while any single hot roll can cost that LR its ass, not the same can be said for the TAC Marines who can take cover and use their squad as an ablative wound shield.

CAN, but not likely to. A single LC has a poor chance of doing anything, and even two of them isn't very reliable against AV 14. Which is exactly the point I was making: you can get a list that is theoretically capable of winning a game against any opponent if the dice are generous, but getting reliable counters to each unit type (the requirement to have a true TAC list) in a 500 point game is impossible.

As for the Boyz, I'd only pick up a single tac squad and invest the rest in a Thunderfirecannon or a whirlwind with a compliment of scout marines.

Congratulations, now you have no anti-AV-14 threat. Which is exactly my point: you can't cover all threats simultaneously, so you have to pick some and hope to get lucky and not face the others.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
nd while any single hot roll can cost that LR its ass, not the same can be said for the TAC Marines who can take cover and use their squad as an ablative wound shield.

CAN, but not likely to. A single LC has a poor chance of doing anything, and even two of them isn't very reliable against AV 14. Which is exactly the point I was making: you can get a list that is theoretically capable of winning a game against any opponent if the dice are generous, but getting reliable counters to each unit type (the requirement to have a true TAC list) in a 500 point game is impossible.

As for the Boyz, I'd only pick up a single tac squad and invest the rest in a Thunderfirecannon or a whirlwind with a compliment of scout marines.

Congratulations, now you have no anti-AV-14 threat. Which is exactly my point: you can't cover all threats simultaneously, so you have to pick some and hope to get lucky and not face the others.

Not sure Id have to yank out a C:SM Codex but im thinking you could snag a stock HQ 100 ten tac and a Lascannon, a whirlwind OR TFC with a stock squad of Scouts at 500 points. That would give you:

HQ - Stock (Stick him somewhere to bolster LD)
Troops- 10 TAC/LC + 3-5 Scouts (A little flexibility with troop types and anti armor)
Heavy- TFC or a Whirlwind (these would cover horde or specialty troops hiding in cover.)

Granted Im not some Marine expert, I'm sure you could tinker around and find a way to maximize effeciency, but its past my caring to do so on an army I dont care much for.

Necrons are about the only army I have a difficult time facing and its mostly because of their RP. The flier spam isn't something I see being a problem. Difficult to fight? Perhaps for some armies, But it's no different than Nids having a tough time against venom spam. Some matchups in 40K are just rough no matter what. Game's balance isnt perfect, but that doesnt mean you cant make a small all comers list and win 8/10 games.

That's just my 2 cents though, I see where your coming from and I do agree to an extent. Bu in my experience I seldom run into 10 games with 10 players playing a list utterly tailored to 100 percent bring an absolute threat in one are. Ie, a tank army, a pure horde army, a pure elite army, a pure flier army all in one game setting. Usually everyone brings a little of everything to coutner as much as they can realizing they dont have 100% assets to counter each problem, but also realizing being one of those "pure" armies usually means running into as you put it, your rock or paper.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
HQ - Stock (Stick him somewhere to bolster LD)
Troops- 10 TAC/LC + 3-5 Scouts (A little flexibility with troop types and anti armor)
Heavy- TFC or a Whirlwind (these would cover horde or specialty troops hiding in cover.)

Legal, but again you're missing the point. You have a "TAC" list that has no real counters to AV 14 (a single LC is not enough) or flyers (a single weapon capable of doing anything to an AV 12 flyer is not enough). IOW, you don't have a TAC list.

Some matchups in 40K are just rough no matter what. Game's balance isnt perfect, but that doesnt mean you cant make a small all comers list and win 8/10 games.

Except it IS different. In a 1500 point game you have enough points to bring multiple counters to each type of threat, you don't have to choose between taking a weapon that can deal with AV 14 and taking a weapon that can shoot at a flyer. You have room to take both. And while you might be short on firepower against a spam list you're not going to run into a situation where you literally don't have an answer to a threat.

Compare this to a 500 point game where often taking a Leman Russ means your opponent literally can't even attempt to roll dice against it and can only hope that it doesn't table them before the game ends.

Bu in my experience I seldom run into 10 games with 10 players playing a list utterly tailored to 100 percent bring an absolute threat in one are. Ie, a tank army, a pure horde army, a pure elite army, a pure flier army all in one game setting.

Then you the only reason your method "works" is because nobody in your area plays 500 point games well. The best way to win a 500 point game is to bring a hard to kill threat that can't be dealt with by the usual weapons (AV 14, flyers, etc), and hope to win the rock/paper/scissors match and get an opponent who is weak to it. Taking a generalist list just gets you tabled by the guy who brought two Leman Russes to a 500 point game.

Usually everyone brings a little of everything to coutner as much as they can realizing they dont have 100% assets to counter each problem, but also realizing being one of those "pure" armies usually means running into as you put it, your rock or paper.

You can't bring "a little of everything" at 500 points. If you bring a Land Raider that's your entire list, you can't also bring some terminators, some light infantry, a flyer, and maybe some IG allies. You have your one threat type and you hope it wins. Same with flyers, hordes, etc. You just don't have enough points to diversify your list.

I don't really like small games where you have to obey Force Organization. However, I absolutely love Kill Team.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
You are looking at it in a lopsided comparison though, that tac squad with 10 Marines and a Lascannon is trading fire with that Landraider at equal or greater range. And while any single hot roll can cost that LR its ass, not the same can be said for the TAC Marines who can take cover and use their squad as an ablative wound shield. Not to mention you losing 4-6 marines to return fire isnt the same as him losing half his army in a pop.

As for the Boyz, I'd only pick up a single tac squad and invest the rest in a Thunderfirecannon or a whirlwind with a compliment of scout marines. Frankly, its the reason i love small games because a bare list can do just fine you just have to think deeper into your decisions. That TFC and Whirlwind could also do well against Eldar or DE or even some hunkered down IG! And as for any scenario its the reason I like DE so much, they are very tricky in what they can bring!

And how exactly is custom tailoring your force to deal with the expected opponent army even remotely close to the same thing as creating an Take All Comers list? Simply put it isn't. Your examples show two different builds to take *depending* on what army you expect to face. You are clearly oblivious to the defintion of a TAC list: A list that, not matter what your opponent puts on the table, your army can deal with it effectively. Your two examples here show that clearly you *can't* create such a list in 500 points. So congrats. You have proven yourself wrong.

Skriker

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
People should just play the old Combat Patrol variant from 4th edition, which is basically the 40K in 40 minutes.

500 point games in general shouldn't take 50+ minutes.

"40K in 40 Minutes" was the cute nickname they gave to the special rules they made for very small games, not the actual time to play. They were basically made to play games during a lunch hour, etc.

Here are the basics:

-Armies are no more than 400 points (though we sometimes raise that to 500 or more for slightly bigger games)

-You must have one Troops choice.

-You may have no more than one HQ choice.

-You may spend the remaining points on any choice form the Codex for that army.

-No models may have more than 2 wounds.

-No special Characters.

-No 2+ saves of any sort.

-No vehicles can have a total armor (Front+one Side+ Rear) of more than 33.

-No Ordnance weapons.

-Use Combat Patrol mission: 12" deployment zones, usually 4x4 table, basic deployment, victory points to win.

-If a unit has a compulsory character that breaks the rules above, leaver them out and don't pay for them.

We used to play the absolute gak out of this when the published this ruleset. The games rarely took longer than an hour, were a ton of fun, and enabled a group of five, six, seven guys to get a good number of games in against multiple opponents. An 1850pt game of 6th ed can easily become a three hour commitment.

 Peregrine wrote:
Legal, but again you're missing the point. You have a "TAC" list that has no real counters to AV 14 (a single LC is not enough) or flyers (a single weapon capable of doing anything to an AV 12 flyer is not enough). IOW, you don't have a TAC list.

Why are you going on about AV14? As you pointed out, it's difficult to fit more than 2 tactical squads and a barebones HQ in a C:SM 500 pt list. Where is this mythical Land Raider that I have to deal with coming from? It is difficult to take out anything over AV12 at that points level, sure, but not impossible.

And yes, I'm well aware that the LRBT also has AV14 front armor, but that would be where the "more tactical" aspect of the smaller games comes in that everyone seems to appreciate. Not to mention, I can fit a Wolf Priest w/combi-melta, 2x 5-man Grey Hunter squads w/plasma guns, 2 basic Razorbacks, and a 5-man Longfang squad w/MLs in a 500 point list. Not great AT, but nothing to scoff at, either.