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So I've digested the Dark Angels codex and it looks like Black Knights are the real hitters in this book. So here's the ravenwing. The plan is to stay compact and flank an army and then hit home and roll up:

Sammael 200
Ravenwing Command: Standard of Fortitude 205

6 Ravenwing bikers: 2 meltaguns, combimelta: Landspeeder typhoon multimelta 276
6 Ravenwing bikers: 2 meltaguns, meltabombs: Landspeeder typhoon multimelta 271

8 Black Knights: 2 grenade launchers, power maul 348
8 Black Knights: 2 grenade launchers, power maul 348
Landspeeder Darkshroud: assault cannon 100

Total 1748

The black Knights should all have 2+ cover and FnP with everything else getting 3+ cover at worst 4+ then i hit home turn 2 and obliterate everything. My plan against flyers is to largely ignore them tabling all ground units and then snapfiring at rear armour.

With just two troops choices due to Sammael I suppose you're committed to tabling your opponent indeed. I suppose Sammael could become scoring as well for 3 objective holders but its just amazing how many points those Black Knights eat up!!

I don't need to table to win this is 6th ed. But if someone does decide to concentrate on killing my troop choices then i will certainly table him. How does Sammael become scoring?

In the scouring the whole army is scoring. In purge the alien i have only 9 kps in the army. Linebreaker is a given unless I've been tabled. If i hide the landspeeders i can get first blood and he'll have to through the black knights for slay the warlord.

I will advise getting rid of the Speeders instead take ATK bikes with MM. Speeders are just to "soft" in this edition.

Also remember the Darkshroud only has 3+ it's a typo in the Print Codex that was corrected in the iOS codex.

Also how are the Black Knights getting FNP???

Standard of Fortitude gives FNP

I guess Sammael has to take that Warlord trait instead of getting the Immovable Object Personal Trait from the BRB...

That would be crazy if he could get Immovable Object as you have to admit

how the black knights have 2+ cover, jinx +skilled rider+stealth is 3+ unless you toorbo boost but then youll only fire snap shots

To explain how the army works: if you go first you deploy front and centre. This is a ruse. Then once you see your opponents deployment you scout towards a flank. Then turbo boost up said flank getting stealth from the darkshroud and fnp from the standard. Turn 2 you obliterate that flank and roll up. If you go 2nd you hide best you can and again scout to hide even better you should be getting mostly 3+ cover saves anyway and still fnp.

Dropping the landspeeders for attack bikes isn't a good idea. The ab has 2 wounds and a 3+ save. For 20 more points i gain 2 missile launchers only have a 4+ save but its cover and i am equivalent of toughness 6.

This type of list has a ton of firepower, but is also very fragile. The obvious weakness is the Heldrake, which many people think they can just ignore but don't realize how many people are allying into Chaos purely to bring one of these (I know I did with my necrons).

Aside from that, you still have to consider that your bikes are only 3+, meaning that any smart player will Dakka them down. They still die similarly to regular power armor marines, albeit slightly slower due to T5. Though for many armies this still isn't a problem. I know my Necron Immortals would still dakka down this list pretty efficiently.

Its not a *bad* list, per se, but it's probably worth noting these weaknesses. This, coupled with the low number of scoring options and, yeah....lots of firepower, but fragile.

Edit: It's also a bit weak to horde armies. A flying monstrous creature would have fun with this, let alone 2 or 3 of them.

Helldrake is the biggest threat. But i still get fnp against it and if you're only taking 1 it shoots once and then dies. But yes this list is not a point and click win button and if you drive into the heart of the enemy you will get torrented down due to 3+ and low model count.

Is there anything you would change that would either up the threat level or mitigate the weakness to ap3 flamers? Remember this is not just a shooting list but also packs a serious cc punch with the black knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why would horde armies cause me a problem? I have loads of black knights.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Helldrake is the biggest threat. But i still get fnp against it and if you're only taking 1 it shoots once and then dies. But yes this list is not a point and click win button and if you drive into the heart of the enemy you will get torrented down due to 3+ and low model count.

Is there anything you would change that would either up the threat level or mitigate the weakness to ap3 flamers? Remember this is not just a shooting list but also packs a serious cc punch with the black knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why would horde armies cause me a problem? I have loads of black knights.

Well, plasma guns kill hordes at the same rate as everything else. So, assuming you had all 16 Knights in Rapid Fire range (9 inches) of a 30 strong squad of boys, you would kill....11 guys. That's only 44 (maybe 66, can't remember if they are 4 or 6 points each) points worth of boys, who are then assaulting you next round. You would have to stay outside of rapid fire range against Orks, which means the lootas in the back are spitting out dakka and wrecking you.

Personally, I would drop one of the Knight squads. You don't need 2 of em, 8 TL plasma guns is plenty.

You can ignore the Heldrake, and the FnP will help, but its one of those units that will be harassing you all game and dwindling your numbers. Without allying in some AA or running all Terms, I think it's just something the new DA codex will have to live with.

Well, indeed, one Knight squad should suffice. I'd include a DW Termie squad that can land in round 1 if required. It will show great synergy with your RW Bikers.

The black knights kill a 30 man or squad in a turn:

12 twinlinked plasma shots = 9 wounds in cover 6 dead approx
particular counting radio grenade hits.

Then 8 hammer of wrath wounding on 3+ is about 5 more dead

Then champion ids Nob with 4 attacks hitting on 3+ killing on 2+.

Then 28 attacks from the squad is about 19 hits and 16 more wounds say about 13 dead

 FlingitNow wrote:
The black knights kill a 30 man or squad in a turn:

12 twinlinked plasma shots = 9 wounds in cover 6 dead approx
particular counting radio grenade hits.

Then 8 hammer of wrath wounding on 3+ is about 5 more dead

Then champion ids Nob with 4 attacks hitting on 3+ killing on 2+.

Then 28 attacks from the squad is about 19 hits and 16 more wounds say about 13 dead

Impressive number.

Hammer of Wrath is un-modified STR of the model, so it'll be S4.

Rad grenade on the way in and there's a lot of dead orks (wounding on 2's), they wound you back on 6's (S3 vs T5)

That leaves 5 boys to strike back with 3 attacks each so 8 hits which is about a 1 in 4 chance to kill one biker. Broken and swept...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah i assumed id hit a 30 man mob somewhere with the radio grenade. 4 s5 attacks each plus hammer of wrath and stasis plus radio grenades pretty much kills any unit. The radio grenades also mean the plasmaguns cause id on t4 units like id warriors and paladins :-D


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rad grenades stupid autocorrect grr

you're playing in a vacuum. You're forgetting about overwatch and all the stuff flying at you before you get into charge range. Orks for example, have this big gun that has a large blast template, wounds you on 2s and doesn't allow armor saves. I fail about 50% of my 2+ saves so having to take 3+ or worse would mean I lost half my models before I got into rapid fire range.

IG, GK, CSM, Necrons will still put a hurt on. I think double stormravens from BA would even put a hurt on this army. Low model counts usually mean you win big if things go your way and you lose quick if they don't. I could be wrong and black knights could be the hammer in everyone's tool box from now on, but i have a feeling that you'll win about half of your matches against competent opposition.

Which is good, we don't need broken, we need balance in the game.

I think you would benefit from just having more Ravenwing bikes, so less BK more RW bodies.

I tend to think that 2 BK's is a bit of over kill, but, it looks like a solid list and would be interesting to play against.

Small, fast and very hard hitting. Plus, not enormously expensive in £s

ghpoobah wrote:
I tend to think that 2 BK's is a bit of over kill, but, it looks like a solid list and would be interesting to play against.

Small, fast and very hard hitting. Plus, not enormously expensive in £s

Well, the normal RW Biker could be taken from the DV box set to be bought from ebay.
Not sure if BK or Cmd Bikers can be easily rebuilt from the DV box.

Ravenwing aren't that much cheaper than black knights indeed a Ravenwing biker with a plasmagun is the same points as a black knight. So i give up so much killing powerfor little extra survivability especially given that the knights gain skilled rider meaning they get a 2+ followed by a 5+ against stuff before they deliver the killing blow. It is all about using the mobility of the army to refuse flank.