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Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator






Scotland

@SavageConvoy:
 Dakarillion wrote:
My Opinion of Units:


I take Kroot because they have very rare let me down, not just because I don't want just FWs, but then I have said this already.

My Tau P&M Blog: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/488519.page

40,000:
Tash'Var Kauyon Kau'Ui Raatol - 3000pts - 6ed = W: 6 / D: 3 / L: 7 .......... Dinoguard Strikeforce - 3000pts - WIP .......... Inquisition Warband - 1000pts - WIP

Fantasy:
Syntharsil (Asrai) - 2500pts - WIP .......... Clan Bador - 2500pts - WIP .......... Children of Sotek - 2500pts - WIP .......... Undead - Special Warband - WIP 
   
Made in tw
Dakka Veteran






Dakarillion that is some of the worst tau advice I have ever seen. For 55 points a tetra is a BS 4 Vehicle that gets 4 markerlight shots per turn. Why the fruggermuffin would you care about the pulse rifle you will never use.

Broadsides not being cost effective vs a hammer head? WTF are you smoking?

Stop giving bad advice

"I LIEK CHOCOLATE MILK" - Batman
"It exist because it needs to. Because its not the tank the imperium deserve but the one it needs right now . So it wont complain because it can take it. Because they're not our normal tank. It is a silent guardian, a watchful protector . A leman russ!" - Ilove40k
3k
2k
/ 1k
1k 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Dakarillion wrote:
I run two 15 Squads. We only have FWs and Kroot for troops and I don't want to take just FWs, how boring. I like Kroot, they do well for me, and I get 5 extra shots and 20 extra attacks for the smae price as 10 FWs. I make sure they get into CC quickly and as unharmed as possible, I keep them away from units they cannot hope to beat, and launch them upon those I know they can.


5 extra shots, but at STR 4 instead of STR 5, and with no armor save vs. 4+. And no, they aren't good in assault either.

Kroot have exactly one purpose: stand in the path of incoming threats and die to buy your important units another turn of life. That means keep them cheap, and ensure that they always lose combat and fail their morale check to avoid locking the unit in combat for your shooting phase. And unfortunately IG blobs and ork boyz do this job better.

I don't like troop transports. Period. For me, they prove only to be costly, under armed. The points are better used buying other units. 1 DF or 8 FWs? 1 DF or 2 Crisis? My FWs are static for the most part anyhow so for me I don't need DFs. I had 2 Devilfish. One is now scrap, the other my Sky Ray.


You don't like them, but you're wrong. AV 12 with a permanent 2+ cover save is way better than buying extra FWs if you want to keep them alive and deliver them to an objective at the end of the game.

An expensive Markerlight at 50pts. Other units can take them for just 10pts and a minimum unit of Pathfinders gives you 4 for the price of 1.


Heavy 4 markerlight, which makes them more point-efficient than pathfinders, on a fast skimmer platform with a permanent 3+ save. You should keep up with the latest rules.

I refer you to my earlier remark.


What, that you beat weaker lists with bad units?

I can't help it, Broadsides just look like Crisis that were retro fitted as heavy weapon suits for an emergency. The Forge World models at least look like they were designed for the job.
My Sky Ray has proven a capable Tank Hunter, mostly against TTs yes, but thats what my HH is for, the bigger Tanks and it works very well against them, even 14 armour.


First of all how the model looks is irrelevant when you're giving strategic advice.

Second, Sky Rays are garbage. Do the math before giving advice, your "success" with them has either been blind luck or just paying attention to the hits and ignoring the times where you fire a full load of seekers and fail to get any penetrating hits. Broadsides and Hammerheads are vastly superior units, and the Sky Ray is garbage.

Finally, Hammerheads are weak against AV 14. Even if you hit you only have a 1/3 chance of penetrating, so a single Hammerhead is unreliable at best. It's not a bad unit since it has duality with the submunition shot, but if your priority is killing tanks you bring broadsides and melta.

We are talking BASICS, Apocalypse is not Basics and the Tiger Shark was originally designed for 40k.


Then why even mention them at all, if we're just talking about basics? You stated that they're bad units, not that they're Apocalypse-only.

And the Tiger Shark was only "for 40k" in that it was first published before Apocalypse existed. It's always been a superheavy flyer, and always been limited to special games where superheavies are allowed.

I am a Tau Player, I am simply saying what I have discovered and know from MY experience. That is not TERRIBLE just my opinion.


No, it's terrible.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






He is confusing the current tetra with the old unit. It used to be 50 points for a single markerlight and a twinlinked pulserifle. It was an atrocious unit. Especially with the squadroun and weapon destroy rules of 5th.

And I guess I will admit you submitted it under the title of "opinion" but under it wrote everything in red and green with statements like "Take these" and "Don't take these".

But you do have to remember that this is a game where statistics and averages play a huge part. Personal preference and opinion really holds no weight. There is always going to be that time where one guy rolled nothing but 6's the entire day and obliterated an entire army with vespid, ethereals, and heavy gun drone squads. The issue is that it's a result that can't be reproduced by an average player in an average game.

If you want to, I can do numbers to show why Kroot are trash compared to FW. Be warned though cause I'd also show numbers to show why FW are trash after that to really put things into perspective. But I don't think that would change your mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My basic view of Tau is an old man slowly dying from organ failure. But he has just enough to stay alive, so everyone wants to stamp a label on him saying he's good for a marathon.

Tau codex units and slots. I'll just label the ones that are limited to no use as bad.
HQ
-XV-8 Shas'el
Bad-XV-8 Shas'o
Bad-Ethereal
Troop
-Firewarriors(the lesser of two bads, but still not really good)
Bad-Kroot
-Devilfish transport limited to Firewarriors, their drones, and Kroot (Not really good for it's price, but survivable)
Fast Attack
Bad-Gun Drones
Bad-Vespid
-Piranha
-Pathfinders (Tetra is much better, but I'm only counting Codex items. Expensive, fragile, and can't move and shoot in a FA slot. It's borderline for me)
Elite
-XV-8
Bad-Stealthsuit
Heavy
Bad-Skyray
-Railgun Hammerhead
-Broadsides
8 units out of 15 useable in the codex, or 7 out of 14 if you don't want to count the Devilfish as a seperate entity.

Suit weapons suffer from the same issue.
Plasma rifles and missile pods being used for their range and reliability.
Flamers being used almost entirely to fill a slot and because of the boost in overwatch.
Fusion blasters are limited range and questionable in an army that has long range anti-tank in it's heart.
The special issue weapons are limited to one per army and not even that good.
Burst cannons are a silly option. Again, short range on a long range suit. Shorter than the standard infantry weapon and at the same S5 AP5. At least the Heavy bolter is different from a Bolter, and in good ways.

Tau suffer from their limited approach. Here's the key problem.If I told you how to prepare to face Tau in a game in 15 minutes, you'd know exactly what he's bringing. Against other armies you'd prepare for the worst, but with Tau you know exactly what he's going to bring. If he doesn't bring that, he's helping you win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/20 00:48:10


I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator






Scotland

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Dakarillion that is some of the worst tau advice I have ever seen ... Stop giving bad advice


Ok, there has been a MAJOR misunderstanding here and I would like to clear 4 things up, then I am dropping out of this Thread because obviously a 8 year Tau player who has won or drawn 80% of the games he has played throughout 4th, 5th and a little of 6th has no experience and so his opinion doesn't matter!

1) The only, ONLY! piece of advice I gave was that you should not dismiss a unit just because some people say it is terrible, it is always best to find out for yourself because what works for some may not always work for you. That was in my very first post in this Topic.

2) After that, I simply expressed the fact that I still use Kroot and Vespids because PERSONNALLY they have always worked well for me so I see no reason to ditch them now. I also gave a list showing MY OPINION on units. That's all it was, my opinion! I was not in any way saying 'I do this so you should' nor have I at any point knocked your opinions on stuff either.

3) Ever since I have had to defend my OPINION against you. Why? Just because you think the units I still get good use out of are terrible? Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it but don't try and force it on me just because mine is different. My opinion was not given as advice simply what I have experineced and learnt over the course of playing with this army as previously stated.

4) Ok, maybe my remark about Broadsides being not worth it against HHs was unjust, I simply have a problem with the way the unit feels to me.

On a lighter note, I did not know that Tetra's are now Heavy 4 on their Markerlights because I'm sure they were only Heavy 1 to begin with, which is what put me off originally getting them even though they do look very cool. I am now considering adding some in the future.

Another thing to come from all this is that I am ditching the 2 Sniper Drone Teams I was going to get in favour of a pair of Broadsides instead. I have decided to get over how the model looks and just try them out at least.

Well, thank you, it's been fun.

My Tau P&M Blog: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/488519.page

40,000:
Tash'Var Kauyon Kau'Ui Raatol - 3000pts - 6ed = W: 6 / D: 3 / L: 7 .......... Dinoguard Strikeforce - 3000pts - WIP .......... Inquisition Warband - 1000pts - WIP

Fantasy:
Syntharsil (Asrai) - 2500pts - WIP .......... Clan Bador - 2500pts - WIP .......... Children of Sotek - 2500pts - WIP .......... Undead - Special Warband - WIP 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Savageconvoy-while I agree with most things you said, I disagree about the following:

Shas'o-it has uses, is some lists. mainly for the tank'o builds. very situational, but not outright useless. (plus people tend to underestimate it's melee power because "its Tau, how bad can it get?", and it often leads to funny situations where he pushes back entire assault units/beat out enemy HQ.)

Stealthsuits-useful of channeling enemy units into the paths you want them to go or put some defense on mid-zone objective with the infiltration. not amazing, but not useless either. a single squad of a half-blub (3 suits, 6 drones) is an option, sometimes.

Burst Cannons-while S5AP5 is common as feth in Tau, having more isn't bad. a plasma/burst suit is a viable option and pretty good at MEQ removal, especially if you know the enemy is a biker/jump pack/drop-pod player where the extra range of the missile will add little. its main advantage is cheapness and decent range matching the the plasma.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot





Personally I dont think shas'o are "situational" at all, for the additional 25pts, I think theyre golden, +1W allows them to soak bolter fire and such that little bit better, +1A and +1WS actaully makes them as you said rather decent in assault, if that 1W SM character manages to get into combat with you, then you've actually got a pretty good chance of beating him. The +1LD is brilliant, as tau as a whole arent a great army for leadership, and making the battlesuit team hes accompanying ld10 instead of the 9 the shas'el would is well worth it. the +1BS speaks for itself, as on those occasions where markerlights are used on a different unit, hes on his own, or your marker units have been killed, hes still highly accurate and able to toast people. I run my shas'o with a plasma rifle and ion blaster, and hes able to put serious hurt on MEQ and TEQ, and characters, which is what you want him for

Stealthsuits imo are pretty useless for games under 2500-apoc level games. In apoc theyre useful the rapid insertion force, but at smaller level games theyre a waste of points in my experience. Its a shame because I love stealth suits and have a lot of them (the old XV15's, I use XV25's for characters and blasters) for the 30pts, 3 fire warriors are more worth the cost, and dont take up the elite slot which is very valuable for tau. To sum it up, cool, but too expensive.

Kroot are the same as stealth teams in my view, the larger the points the more they have use, but at the average game size of 1500-1750 they just arent worth the cost, fire warriors are more survivable and hit harder, despite being over costed. Kroot shooting isnt much better than guardsmen shooting but is way more expensive, and they got mauled by stand and shoot and then due to low I and aweful armour save (if any) they get mauled again in close combat. People use them to "hang on" to objectives, but for +3pts its more worthwhile to take fire warriors.


My basic summary for tau:

Shas'o or shas'el, both are very useful, shas'el for a cheap leader with decentish stats, shas'o if you want a powerhouse, but more expensive

Bodyguard teams - not worth it until larger point levels, even then not really that great

ethereals - not worth it, only real use is for preferred enemy shinannigans with 2 of them, only for apoc really, and very meh

Special characters - useless except for O'Shovah who's still not very good but at least can do something

Crisis teams - Best unit in the army on par with broadsides, dont spend too many points on upgrades though or you end up with an expensive unit thats really got the survivability of 6 space marines

Stealth team- see above

Fire warriors - Overcosted unit, but better than kroot, you can go with the bare minimum 2x6 and spend the rest of your points on heavy hitters with the hope that you can level the enemy enough to win 1obj-0 but i personally find myself taking 3x8 at the moment, sometimes with shas'ui, but thats very debateable if its worth it.

Kroot- see above

Pathfinders- Now these are your workhorse unit, tau are all about synergy and pathfinders are unit that starts it all off. Markerlights are needed to make units like crisis suits work, depleting cover saves on enemys to annihilate them with weapons that ignore their armour is brilliant, as is BS5 on units. Seeker missiles are generally a waste of a markerlight however. The problem with pathfinders is the "devilfish tax" which brings me on to:

Tetras - Now, these are a forge world unit found here in forge worlds update to codex tau empire: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/t/Tauupdate.pdf Tetras are ideal since they dont have to pay the devilfish tax for the markerlights and can have a targetting array. So long as you keep them moving they have a 3+ cover save from all attacks over 12" away which keeps them alive, but they are AV10 with 2 hull points and open topped, so if you are'nt careful they will die even faster than pathfinders. A clever opponent will kill your tetras and pathfinder first, which will more often than not cripple your army, so manoeuvre your units carefully to block line of site to them as much as you can and keep them out of range. One last thing about tetras, is that due to being a forge world unit, some people think that they are "not playtested" or "inbalanced" personally I think these people are not worth playing against because they are more often than not WAAC players who will take any excuse to get a one up on you if they can. But basically just check that people are ok with them and let them see the rules so they aren't taken by surprise.

Gun drone squadrons - Not much to say on these, not really great, not aweful, very meh unit that doesnt tend to fit in most lists, cheap, doesnt do much damage, almost never taken. The oppotunity for pinning is there but pinning is so unreliable its not that useful. One use for them however is deep striking behind a tank line and hitting vulnerable rear armour or enemy heavy weapon teams where their cover cant protect them, but still not a great unit.

Piranahs - Pretty much a one trick pony unit, they either kill something and then die, or just die. These and vespid are the units I never use. Theyre not really worth it from what ive seen though, since the only decent use seems to be blasting up to a tank and hoping to pop it with a fusion gun before it kills them

Vespid - Possibly one of the worst units in the game, and id say the worst unit in the tau codex, expensive, weak, bad armour, short range guns. Pretty much pointless, which is ironic given their high points value

Broadside teams - Brilliant units, a twin linked railgun is ideal for killing tanks and aircraft thanks to the re-roll. Targetting arrays or advanced stabilisation systems are great upgrades for them, and a team leader with a blacksun filter doesnt tend to go amiss for +8pts. PLasma rifles are generally not worth buying, but occasionally have their uses, as rapid firing and twin linked can occasionally level a terminator squad that comes down near you. Smart missiles are normally the better choice since you'll be blasting tanks all day long anyway from across the board. Also use cover and stay back, broadsides attract a lot of fire and only t4 means they get instant death'd or just blown away by massed fire if you're not careful.

Hammerheads - A bit over costed, but so long as you give it a disruption pod and keep moving very survivable, railgun is the weapon of choice as the ion cannons job can be done by crisis teams or snipers for cheaper. Multi tracker is often worth it for the 12" move and still able to fire at normal BS. Burst cannons are normally better than smart missiles, as normally the railgun is the only gun you'll be shooting anyway and once the enemy gets close the cheapness and more shots of the cannons win out.

Sniper teams - Generally not really worth the heavy slot they occupy, which is a shame because they are'nt actually that bad. Maybe a little over costed, but they can prove useful vs units such as bloodcrushers, thunderwolves, IG weapon team, devastator squads, and lone t3 characters. Use of markerlights to remove cover is very useful with them.

Sky ray - Was semi useful until the new FAQ which made seeker missiles hit flyers on a 6, now they're worthless and only really come above vespid in the codex.

Just some notes:

Blacksun filters are brilliant, and only 1 model in the unit requires one for the whole unit to ignore night fighting, worth spending on most characters with armoury access

Targetting arrays are nice on crisis suits, but expensive and means you wont be firing two weapons. Normally a better idea to let markerlights do the BS increasing.

Disruption pods are brilliant, take them on all vehicles

Devilfish are overcosted, but have their uses of protecting fire warrior teams with their 3+ save from disruption pods and jink, flat out makes this a 2+, perfect for moving 6", unleasing FW team and letting them shoot, then flat outing to block LoS to the fire warriors

seeker missiles are generally not worth it, markerlights have better things to do, and 10 points for a single shot crack missile that uses up a marker and still might miss is generally not brilliant

Plasma on crisis suits is how you kill terminators

Fire warriors in larger squads in rapid fire with BS5 from markers is a pretty effective infantry rape unit

Missile pods + plasma is probably the most common crisis loadout, effective vs heavy infantry and light vehicles at medium-close range.

Plasma+ Burst cannon on crisis is good vs Infantry and heavy infantry, large amount of shots coupled with markerlight hits can prove devastating, especially at rapid fire ranges.

Shield generators are generally not worth it except on shas'o. shield drones however are brilliant, and should be placed in front of the squad, use the jetack moves in the assault phase to position units in the best way to recieve fire, drones at the front, characters safe, wounded models at the back

Gun drones lack the invul save and the better armour, but are cheaper and add ablative wounds to teams, only really useful when you take a crisis team with twin linked weapons and drone controllers for 6 drones, which can take hits for the crisis team. Remember that drones count towards 25% models lost morale checks though

Probably a lot of stuff ive missed, hopefully thats helpful. Remember this is just my view, but I've been playing tau for about 10 years, so hopefully my opinion counts a bit good luck playing tau, theyre a fun army and look awesome
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






The reason why I don't like the Shas'o is that its very expensive for a bare unit with the only important buffs of +1w, +1Ld, and +1bs. It's just more of the same, and not very points efficient in a very points thrifty codex. But I guess it's also not an individual unit since its more like an upgrade to the base HQ. Still, 6 out of 13 units are useable.

Stealth suits are just to niche for me. Even for the price of a minimum squad it just seems like those points would be better elsewhere. Especially better places than a T3 model that I have to put closer to my opponents control zone.

Burst cannons bother me because they are our version of the heavy bolter, and they stink out loud in comparison. Heavy bolters get better range, strength, and ap than the standard bolter with more shots per model and gets mounted on all vehicles. Our version has the same S, Ap, and almost half the range. There is no reason to take it. I know the numbers that show how they compare to the missile pods and such at 18", but the problem is I don't like being within 18" of enemy units.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in ca
Nasty Nob






 Dakarillion wrote:
 Ninjacommando wrote:
Dakarillion that is some of the worst tau advice I have ever seen ... Stop giving bad advice


Ok, there has been a MAJOR misunderstanding here and I would like to clear 4 things up, then I am dropping out of this Thread because obviously a 8 year Tau player who has won or drawn 80% of the games he has played throughout 4th, 5th and a little of 6th has no experience and so his opinion doesn't matter!




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTykY2B0kEY

ERJAK wrote:


The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.

 
   
Made in gb
Focused Fire Warrior






Well that was out of line.

The main strength of kroot and stealth suits at the moment is Line breaker.
With our squishy troop choices we will often struggle to win on primarys. Its sometimes advisable to target their troop choices so as to draw on primaries and win on secondarys.
This may be easier for tau than other armies due to our strong alpha strike capability, by fielding kroot or stealth suits we get a reasonable chance of picking up line breaker.

The reason skyrays are so trashed on is that a tetra provides better markerlight support and you can fit the dubiously priced seeker missile on any other vehicle you choose to field.

   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






But line breaker only matters at the end of the game. Kroot have no survivability what so ever. Poor leadership, no armor, and T3 means they would be forced to outflank and hope that the enemy doesn't gun them down.

Stealthsuits would be safer, with a 2+ cover save. But if the enemy wouldn't find it too difficult to remove them.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Northern MN

 spears wrote:
Well that was out of line.
The main strength of kroot and stealth suits at the moment is Line breaker.
With our squishy troop choices we will often struggle to win on primarys. Its sometimes advisable to target their troop choices so as to draw on primaries and win on secondarys.
This may be easier for tau than other armies due to our strong alpha strike capability, by fielding kroot or stealth suits we get a reasonable chance of picking up line breaker


pretty much exactly.. kroot still suck at this though.

Stealthsuits = 3+ armor, and an amazing 4+ in the wide open, and basicly 2+ if not. a x4 man unit with 8 GD = 200 points, so yes a bit on the expensive side, but as an independant operating squad (say comparing to FWs without markerlight support) that is 20 str 5 ap5 shots at a slightly higher than better BS skill (because of the twin linking) for the exact same cost as firewarriors, but with WAY better survivability.

Peregrine wrote:Except it isn't a bullet magnet because it has a terrible firepower to durability ratio. A good opponent will just ignore the unit and focus on killing squishier targets with better shooting, or scoring units.


Great! I will wipe out his troops holding his objectives and grab that linebreaker point, give and take. But your point on durability? my opponent will usally have to divert his cover save ignoring firepower onto my outflanking unit killing his troops in the backfield, Because they cant get through x12 2+ saves, that can outmanuver most of the special heavy weapons teams left in the back.

Now, is this unit an outtake? HELL NO! IF I choose to do this as part of my overall armies tactics I have probably a specific purpose in mind. Like a Shas el with AFP and a CiB, making sure I still have enough firepower elsewhere, etc..

But compared to kroot? Yeah they might be able to hold a point, but they proabably won't be able to clear multiple points, and with no armor save and bad leadership will start retreating across the board and not do jack gak anyways. Kroot = take LD test and run away after shooting once when they enter play.

Stealthsuits may not take a point but they WILL give me linebreaker and Deny points to my opponent... not so for kroot.

I'll say it again kroot = one 5 man space marine unit looking at them for a turn to make them run away. Stealthsuits if left unchecked can easily wipe out an opponents backfield.

RAWRR! 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






 Savageconvoy wrote:
but the problem is I don't like being within 18" of enemy units.


Then its a matter of playstyle really.

I tend to have my suit come up close and personal to enemy forces, wiping out a unit at a time and putting enough pressure to force him to focus his own forces there, while my firewarriors, broadsides and hammerheads put out their own firepower undisturbed.

When you tend to aim for rapid-firing the plasma from the firstplace, that 18 range is not longer an issue-you are hogging that distance anyway.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
 
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