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While I find 90% of Grey Knight fluff in 5'th edition pure nonsense this one thing I cannot simply imagine for them ( don;t worry guys it's not Draigo or Bloodtide, something more informal ).

I simply cannot imagine that according to new fluff Grey Knights serve as military arm for the entire Inquisition. I simply refuse to believe this because of the following three problems:


-numbers: there are millions of Inquisitors serving in the Imperium, and perhaps hundreds or even thousands of the mare on some very important mission that require more than Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and Imperial Guard to deal with. Giving into account that Ward never actually gave number for Grey Knights serving in 41'st millennium except "one thousand" that were trained and ready to serve after Titan emerged from Warp, everybody have conclude that there are 1.000 Grey Knights in 41'st millennium as well. That means that their numbers are far from being enough to go and help in every major incursion and Inquisitorial high priority. Their new number is in my opinion to few even for Ordo Malleus, not to mention other branches of the Inquisition.

-specialty: in addition to three main branches there are numerous other minor branches, but fact remains now that Grey Knights serve as military arm for Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Xenos. But the problem is that Grey knights are specially trained daemon hunters, meant to hunt primary daemons of Chaos and Chaos Space Marines. Their role is not fit for Ordo Hereticus, while it may be logical to send them to kill corrupted Governor - 90% of work includes discovering Governors and officials who are close to rebel/declare independence. And Grey Knights are to precious and specialized to be used as politically correcting tools to bring rebellious elements of Imperium's bureaucracy into line. Grey Knights do not fit Ordo Xenos at all, their job should be to fight daemon incursions not Ork WARGHHHS, Tyranid Invasions, Necron Uprising, Tau Expansions... This also perfectly shows problem with numbers, while Grey Knights could work with 1.000 Marines to stop daemonic incursions ( only several one in the same time ) or bring down corrupted Governors, but they cannot work with this numbers against numerous alien threats hitting the Imperium daily. Especially not against things like Tyranids ( who destroyed almost entire Chapter, the Scythes of the Emperor ) or full Necron uprising. So their numbers are not enough to fit the needs of all important mission they are needed.

-fluff conflict As we know according to new fluff Grey Knights must remain secret, so every Guard Regiment who see them must disappear ( except few specially pardoned Regiments ) and even Space Marines must submit themselves to mind wiping or face annihilation too ( I have a hunch they tried this to Space Wolves too after 1'st Armageddon War, lost Grand Master as a result ). Well if they work as military arm of other Inquisition branches they will be exposed to LOT of Imperial Guard and Space Marines, especially if they work with Ordo Xenos in ending alien threats. That means that they must either make themselves official to everyone or destroy every army group that saw them, and even they would not waster that much men that could be used on other fronts ( especially i 41'st millennium where Imperium's strategic reserves are below minimal ). So their specialty fit only Ordo Malleus, not Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus or any other minor order.

With these three major problem with this statement what remains is a problem of Deathwatch, who supposedly serve as military arm of Ordo Xenos ( and who are not mentioned even once in a while now ) . While Sisters are essentially part of Ecclesiarchy and not Inquisition, to me calling them to aid Ordo Hereticus into hunting down traitorous elements of the Inquisition ( witch is awesome giving their history and how they originated in treason themselves, swearing that they will never let anyone like Vandire rise again ) is kind of cool. With this Deathwatch became useless and practically just another Astartes chapter and Sisters became just military arm of Ecclesiarchy and lost all special authority they had as supporting arm of Ordo Hereticus.

So what are your opinion on this subject? Be free to debate and show me if I am wrong somewhere

They don't serve as the military arm of the entire Inquisition. It may have been a stupid concept Ward subtlety tried to do in the 5th Ed. Codex, but the 6th Edition Rulebook flat-out states that:

A.) The Ordo Malleus has the GK as it's Ordo Militant
B.) The Ordo Xenos has the Deathwatch as its Ordo Militant
C.) The Ordo Hereticus "frequently cooperates" with the Sisters of Battle

It was a terrible concept, I agree. Fortunately Ward's idea didn't make it past GW publishers, probably because getting rid of the Deathwatch made no sense from a merchandising perspective and shat on a lot of FFG products.

Ward has noted that the GK consist of +/-900 marines.

Not that I hold the opinion but for some reason many people love the OTT-writing of Matt Ward. My present theory is that they should stick to WH30k. the less grimdark variant, but truthfully I don't know. But in my heart I agree with the OP. The Grey Knights seems stupid in their operation right now. They teleport in, kill demons, then guardsmen, then they teleport away to massacre Sisters of Battle. It's seems like an awful cartoon.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Not that I hold the opinion but for some reason many people love the OTT-writing of Matt Ward. My present theory is that they should stick to WH30k. the less grimdark variant, but truthfully I don't know. But in my heart I agree with the OP. The Grey Knights seems stupid in their operation right now. They teleport in, kill demons, then guardsmen, then they teleport away to massacre Sisters of Battle. It's seems like an awful cartoon.

A grimdark cartoon*

 Harriticus wrote:
They don't serve as the military arm of the entire Inquisition. It may have been a stupid concept Ward subtlety tried to do in the 5th Ed. Codex, but the 6th Edition Rulebook flat-out states that:

A.) The Ordo Malleus has the GK as it's Ordo Militant
B.) The Ordo Xenos has the Deathwatch as its Ordo Militant
C.) The Ordo Hereticus "frequently cooperates" with the Sisters of Battle

It was a terrible concept, I agree. Fortunately Ward's idea didn't make it past GW publishers, probably because getting rid of the Deathwatch made no sense from a merchandising perspective and shat on a lot of FFG products.

Found it on page 180 of new rulebook, you are completely right.
I completely over-watched that piece of information in new rulebook. Thank you

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:there are millions of Inquisitors serving in the Imperium

Where did you get this numbers from? The most that GW itself ever hinted at in the material that I've read was Inquisitors being "one of a finite elite who hold ultimate authority over mankind", which to me certainly sounds like they'd be a rarity. This also explains how, according to the Thorian Sourceboook, the Inquisition basically didn't have time to deal with Vandire as they were busy dealing with xenos on the fringe. They had to create a whole new Ordo just to make sure that some of them remain dedicated to ensuring stuff like that doesn't happen again.

Also, it should be noted that even if the Grey Knights were the preferred Chamber Militant for any Inquisitor, this does not include locally requisitioned/commandeered forces. The Inquisition has its own dedicated troops - Storm Troopers and Space Marines, and by extension the Sororitas - to circumvent potential red tape when necessary, but I think it's safe to say that most Inquisitors operate by requesting backup from nearby sources on an as-needed basis wherever possible. Basically "travelling lightly" and commandeering what they need on-site by waving their rosette.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Their role is not fit for Ordo Hereticus, while it may be logical to send them to kill corrupted Governor - 90% of work includes discovering Governors and officials who are close to rebel/declare independence. And Grey Knights are to precious and specialized to be used as politically correcting tools to bring rebellious elements of Imperium's bureaucracy into line. Grey Knights do not fit Ordo Xenos at all, their job should be to fight daemon incursions not Ork WARGHHHS, Tyranid Invasions, Necron Uprising, Tau Expansions...

To be fair, the "90% work of discovering" is something where an Inquisitor would not need the backup of any significant military force, Grey Knights or no. The armies are called in once it's time for the purge, and Space Marines, including GKs, remain the most efficient shock troops the Imperium has to offer.
As far as fighting rebellion or xenos incursions is concerned, I would say that depending on the planet in question, this may be just as important as fighting daemons.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:they cannot work with this numbers against numerous alien threats hitting the Imperium daily. Especially not against things like Tyranids ( who destroyed almost entire Chapter, the Scythes of the Emperor ) or full Necron uprising.

The Inquisition doesn't, either. The average alien invasion is something for the Imperial Guard to handle, plain and simple. An Inquisitor may pop up if there's an interesting artifact to be retrieved, or if there's talk of xeno influence amongst the Imperial ranks, but otherwise I do not think that the Ordo Xenos has any interest in some random Waaagh or yet another Dark Eldar raid on some worthless agriworld.

You still have a point on both the numbers as well as specialty argument, mind you. It's just that I think this material would not have been totally irreconcilable with the rest of the fluff, as you make it sound. It makes less sense than the original fluff, but it's not that bad, if you get my drift.

Harriticus wrote:[...] probably because getting rid of the Deathwatch made no sense from a merchandising perspective and shat on a lot of FFG products.

For what it's worth, FFG gaking on GW's Deathwatch fluff would have meant they could've just continued on as they were. "Their" Deathwatch is just an ally to the Inquisition rather than part of it, and as such would not have to be mentioned in a description about the Ordo Xenos and/or the Inquisition.

I'm glad that (apparently) GW chose to return to ~3E fluff myself, tho. It made (a) more sense to me and (b) the original Deathwatch was too cool an idea to pass up on.

The big thing to consider is that only the Ordo Malleus ever requires a militant arm to approach anything resembling an army.

The other ordos use other Imperial forces when they need an army. the Deathwatch are a surgical strike force used to fulfil specific objectives.

And the Ordo Hereticus uses the SoB, although indirectly.


So if kinda makes sense to have all 3 ordos in one book. If it had been up to me I would have cut all the inquisition stuff out of the GK codex except for Assassins and rolled them into an Inquisiton codex that had SoB and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

Ugh. It would make more sense to roll all Marines into a single Codex. At least there you'd have way fewer differences between the armies than if you'd compare the three Chambers Militant and other assorted Inquisitorial operatives.

I still think that Inquisitors, ISTs and Deathwatch should just get a WD Minidex that makes them playable as allies to an Imperial force.

thenoobbomb wrote:A grimdark cartoon*

I admit, I snickered.

A million individuals in an empire that numbers a million worlds isn't that commonplace, lol.

I wouldn't mind a combining of marine codices if they put in ways to customize your chapter.

Roll BAs, DAs, and BTs intot he Vanilla codex.

There is a list of chapter traits you may choose from, some may unlock certain units/options.

Give Tac squads the option to swap their bolter for a chainsword and give them options at 5 guys strong.

 Lynata wrote:

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:there are millions of Inquisitors serving in the Imperium

Where did you get this numbers from? The most that GW itself ever hinted at in the material that I've read was Inquisitors being "one of a finite elite who hold ultimate authority over mankind", which to me certainly sounds like they'd be a rarity.

In empire that number quadrillions of citizens numbers like million or three million is rare indeed. Giving how big and powerful Inquisition is why it is strange if the number of Inquisitors is around million and more?

And you have a point on your two other posts, they are both correct. My point is exactly what you said: Inquisition don't bother with those kind of things unless it's something they are interested in. Or it is some threat so significant that it require their attention.
My point is that in those "special conditions" where the Guard is not enough to finish the job, or the job is to precious to let anyone else finish it, the big I must call their fighting arm to help them. And calling Grey Knights to furfill those kind of "special" mission, where they face everything else beside daemons, is rather stupid to me.

Well remember that you never know the backstory of the game you are fighting.

If your GKs are fighting X army that isn't Chaos, they obviously have a Daemonic Artifact or may be tainted or something.

The explanation for the presence of an ordo hereticus or xenos inquisitor is also easily explained. In the course of their investigations a daemonic threat was uncovered, and the GKs were called in.

Void__Dragon wrote:A million individuals in an empire that numbers a million worlds isn't that commonplace, lol.

Sure, but it sounds "more rare" than, say, Space Marines. They were mentioned in the same paragraph as an example for what this "finite elite" could call upon, alongside Navy fleets and Titan Legions.

Well, while a million inquisitors proper might be a bit much, what about their acolytes and throne agents?

I won't hazard a guess there, especially as the number of Inquisitorial operatives in an Inquisitor's retinue and his extended network will vary depending on the individual ... but it'll surely be a big number.

I'll eschew the term "Acolytes" as this is just one type of operative, and "Throne Agent" as it is just an "Acolyte +1" term that an outsourced product invented.

However, only Inquisitors have the authority of an Inquisitor (including the possible ability to call in the Grey Knights), so their minions should not play a role in the discussion.

A thought that just occured to me ... I would even assume that the Inquisition is sort of self-policing the usage of its assets. An Inquisitor won't just call in the GKs for anything, exactly because the Grey Knights are few and could be missed elsewhere. Other Inquisitors would take notice and censure him, much like it works in other areas of status abuse, especially concerning Radical Inquisitors using unsanctioned methods.

In fact, I always assumed that the Convocation of Nephilim basically "reserved" the SoB for the Ordo Hereticus. The Sisters are an Imperial force, and so officially any Inquisitor would have the ability to requisition them. Perhaps they still could, if the status as "Chamber Militant" is as unofficial as the distinction of the Ordos (it's still supposed to be one big Inquisition, which perhaps explains the wording in the GK Codex?), but nobody does it because he'd kick up a shitstorm from other Inquisitors? And it'd be the same for the Grey Knights.

"Throne Agent" originates in the Eisenhorn series, IIRC.

Ohh - that makes sense, BI/FFG adopted a lot of Dan Abnett's stuff, iirc he even wrote parts of the original Dark Heresy core rulebook.

I've only known it from its Ascension supplement, so far.

You know what's even stranger: Grey Knights are all psykers. They use sorcery. They collect alien artifacts and sorcerous lore. Is there even any difference between them and the XV Legion? Sounds like this Ward dude made one hell of a mess up, IMHO.

Where does it ever state that the Grey Knights serve every Ordo? As far as I can remember, the only passage in the Codex that addresses the issue mentions that they are the chamber militant for the Ordo Malleus. This is confirmed by the 6th ed rulebook.

 Kaldor wrote:
Where does it ever state that the Grey Knights serve every Ordo? As far as I can remember, the only passage in the Codex that addresses the issue mentions that they are the chamber militant for the Ordo Malleus. This is confirmed by the 6th ed rulebook.

The 5th Ed codex for GK subtlety suggests it, but again I think it was an idea GW merchandising ultimately shot down. Ward probably suspected they might, which is why he never flat-out said it.

Any Inquisitor could request their assistance, they probably wouldn't respond unless it was a clear daemonic threat that was being investigated.

The 3 major Ordo's areas are not as clearly delineated as you would think. Especially the Hereticus and Malleus. Lots of crossover. Less so with the Ordo Xenos but they are the smallest of the 3 major ordos anyway.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Less so with the Ordo Xenos but they are the smallest of the 3 major ordos anyway.

Ironic, considering xenos are the most numerous and widespread of Mankind's enemies.

That may be true, but Xenos are the most easily countered and actually the lowest threat of the three. The threat from within and the threat beyond are more insidious.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That may be true, but Xenos are the most easily countered and actually the lowest threat of the three. The threat from within and the threat beyond are more insidious.

Agreed, though I personally think that would depend on the xenos. Cunning ones like the Eldar, technologically-advanced ones like the Necrons (not the Tau; they don't have what it takes to be 'priority one'), and obviously dangerous ones like Tyranids, are just as dangerous as the Forces of Chaos or treacherous insurgents/subversives/heretics.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Less so with the Ordo Xenos but they are the smallest of the 3 major ordos anyway.

But then again, for smallest Ordo of all major three they have the biggest military arm.
Nobody knows the true number of Deathwatch Space Marines but some have argued that because of the sheer size of alien threat they are close to Templars in numbers, if not in grater number then them. Giving how many marines serve in Deathwatch all over the galaxy that statement may not be far from the truth.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Less so with the Ordo Xenos but they are the smallest of the 3 major ordos anyway.

But then again, for smallest Ordo of all major three they have the biggest military arm.
Nobody knows the true number of Deathwatch Space Marines but some have argued that because of the sheer size of alien threat they are close to Templars in numbers, if not in grater number then them. Giving how many marines serve in Deathwatch all over the galaxy that statement may not be far from the truth.

The Ordo Xenos may arguably be the most secretive among the three branches of the Inquisition. Do we even know where they're Grand Conclave is? The central command center of the Deathwatch? We don't; as the Culexus Temple says "That which is not known and not understood commands the greatest fear." The Ordo Xenos could therefore arguably be the branch of the Inquisition to be feared most, not the Witch Hunters or the Daemon Hunters.

It probably depends on who you ask. If I recall correctly (WH Designer Notes maybe?), the Ordo Hereticus was said to be the most feared, simply because it is the one entrusted with dealing with the Enemy Within and their agents tend to have a "sinister" aura.

I mean, compare Xenos or Malleus Inquisitors in their shining knightly power armour with a Witch Hunter in his dark cloak and large brimmed hat expunging heresy amidst the populace. There are, of course, exceptions to this rule but that seems to be the default image.

The irony is, of course, that the other Inquisitors are just as capable of doing stuff we'd consider to be evil - but fewer people would expect it of them, making the mistake to judge the book by its cover, so to say.

The Inquisition was formed in the aftermath of the Heresy specifically to prevent it happening again. The Inquisitions primary purpose was and is to protect against threats internal not external. The Ordos Malleus & Hereticus deal with threats that endemic to the human race. Wherever there are humans there are psykers, every one of whom is a potential conduit for daemonic incursion. On every world of the Imperium are its institutions and bureaucracies, in every department there are men and women in danger of being corrupted by the power they wield just as Vandire was. The Ordos Malleus and Hereticus are at war with humanity itself. The Ordo Xenos' duties are miniscule by comparison.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Any Inquisitor could request their assistance, they probably wouldn't respond unless it was a clear daemonic threat that was being investigated.

The 3 major Ordo's areas are not as clearly delineated as you would think. Especially the Hereticus and Malleus. Lots of crossover. Less so with the Ordo Xenos but they are the smallest of the 3 major ordos anyway.

Actually the inquisition background book states the ordo malleus to be the smallest, because its personnel have to be such a rare breed. Also says hereticus is the largest.

And the command center of the ordo xenon is known, talasa prime