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I was reading about the fallen angels on the 40k wiki and come across a confession from one of the fallen angels.

This testimony, extracted by Interrogator-Chaplain Boreas, contains the following claims: Astelan himself is supposed to have ordered the attack on the Lion's approaching fleet, with the approval of Luther, because the Dark Angels on Caliban believed that El'Jonson had fallen sway to the Ruinous Powers of Chaos. Astelan claimed that while the Lion had been lost in the woods of Caliban as a child, he had had a brush with Chaos and had never quite lost the taint of darkness from the incident. He pointed out that while El'Jonson had moved through the Warp towards Terra to join the defence of the Imperial Palace from Horus' Traitor forces, he had moved at what was believed to have been a deliberately slow pace; a pace slow enough to determine who the true winner of the conflict would be before committing his forces. In other words, Astelan believed that El'Jonson would not have hesitated to join Horus if it had seemed that he would have been the ultimate victor in the Horus Heresy. Why else would the Lion, a man renowned for his strategic brilliance and speed of attack, have waited so long before leading his troops to Terra? Astelan believed that by attacking his fleet, the Dark Angels stationed on Caliban were doing the work of the Emperor.
Astelan further claimed that Luther never fell under the sway of Chaos but was driven by his duty to the Emperor, fearing the traitorous nature of El'Jonson. Also, he revealed that, apparently, the majority of the men who had been garrisoned on Caliban were the original members of the Dark Angels Legion, Terrans who had been inducted into the Legion by the Emperor himself before the discovery of El'Jonson on Caliban as the Legion's Primarch. This existing cultural divide within the Legion may have also contributed to the conflict on Caliban. Finally, Astelan claimed that, in the ensuing battle between the seemingly Loyalist Lutheran Angels and the possibly suspect Lionite Angels, Luther attempted to negotiate with the Lion before any more were slain. Refusing to talk, the Lion hastily ordered the bombardment of Caliban and descended to crush the Fallen in combat. Luther then apparently fought the Lion only as a last resort and mortally wounded him only when he had no other choice. The only thing that Astelan could not explain was the Warp Storm that then flung the Fallen far across the galaxy.

This entire point of view, as told by a member of the Fallen, should be considered suspect at best and complete fabrication at worst; it could simply be a series of malicious lies or just a warped, inaccurate view of the entire incident. Often, those who fall under the sway of Chaos do not even realize that they are serving its ends, except that at the end of the novel Angels of Darkness, Boreas asks for a transmission to be sent to a solitary cell in the Rock saying simply: "You were right." This cell is currently believed, by readers, to be that of either Astelan or Luther himself. This, from a Loyalist Dark Angel, throws into question the true loyalties of the Dark Angels, The Fallen and the Primarch Lion El'Jonson himself.

copied: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fallen_Angels

Sorry about the copy paste but its lengthy and hard to explain, anyway I to now begin to question the loyalty of the dark angels. Also I think its strange that they still have relic technologies from the great crusade but won't share them with the tech priests.

There is a thread on this subject on the background section.

Personally I love this sort of ambiguity.

Sorry about posting in the wrong area, back on topic what do you think about the dark angels loyalty?

The Dark Angels are loyal seeing that the rest of the imperium of man doesn't know about the heresy it shouldn't be a big deal if you look outside of the unforgiven.

Sounds exactly like the kind of manipulation that Chaos uses to drag people down. There was the slightest doubt about El'Johnson's loyalty, but Chaos only needs that seed: that he was late to the Siege of Terra was just confirmation in the eyes of those who held that doubt, and all it took was a nudge in the right direction by the agents of Chaos to make the Dark Angels on Caliban to truly believe that their primarch was tainted.

I have no doubt that some of the Fallen are agents of Chaos, and that some wholeheartedly believed that they were doing the right thing. The same could be said of any of the Traitor Legions.

I suspect that the rest of the "loyalist" Dark Angels would have thought they were doing the right thing (with some exceptions, surely) no matter which side the Lion chose. As for El'Johnson himself, it's entirely possible that he was undergoing a huge internal battle, where his own doubts about the Emperor had been eating away at him. So it could well be that he hadn't completely made up his mind until he reached Terra itself.

But I agree with Crimson, this sort of ambiguity in the fluff is exactly what I think is great about 40k background.

The history books are always written by the victors. Was this what was whispered to Luther by dark and mysterious voices, to give him a plausible reason for turning on his best friend and partner? Or does Lion El'Jonson's reticence to speak about his past before the Order found him come from some dark secret? Are the Dark Angels hunting the Fallen to bring them to justice, or to silence the truth?

Good writing either way, in my book. I agree that regardless of what Luther and El'Jonson's motivations were, many of the marines following them may have been loyal but mislead.

Good writing either way, in my book. I agree that regardless of what Luther and El'Jonson's motivations were, many of the marines following them may have been loyal but mislead.

I agree with you. but I would love to know whats with cypher the fallen angel. He could be loyal or not. He apparently has the Lion's sword

They are all heretics, Lionel Johnson is a terrible name and he got spanked but a non-Astartes, and the entire chapter is a giant gay joke on GW's part. Seem pretty lame to me.

I like to think of it this way:

The Fallen are actually the loyalists and it was the rest who have secretly turned to Tzeentch, though unknowingly. The Unforgiven abandon fights to seek these Fallen so that their secret can be kept, but are convinced that they are still loyalists, they just don't know that they are playing into the hands of the chaos god of deception. Cypher knows the truth and has slowly made his way towards Terra not to finally kill the Emperor but to meet with The High Lords of Terra and bring proof of this. The Interrogaters are the ones who have to pull confessions from The Fallen because they are the ones who have been trained to ensure the forced confessions are lies of their love for Chaos and the deeds they've done.
"But all these books have shown they're not!" Those books are from the twisted minds of the Dark Angels and they don't realize they aren't fighting loyalists.

Is it a stretch? YES. Has GW left room for this? Maybe. I know that a lot of people will scoff at my concept but you have to admit that it's at least interesting!

Well you know what they say, there are no good guys in 40k, only zealots.

 Gabrial Seth wrote:
The Dark Angels are loyal seeing that the rest of the imperium of man doesn't know about the heresy it shouldn't be a big deal if you look outside of the unforgiven.

I think the Black Templars at least suspect it, depending on how much information was sent by the Ophidium Gulf before it was "disappeared".

I tend to think that they would at least have a strong distrust because of it, but not enough to send a ton of Templars to wipe out some DAs.

There isn't a clear answer. Part of the fun is sthat you can't actually know the truth.

milo wrote:
The history books are always written by the victors. Was this what was whispered to Luther by dark and mysterious voices, to give him a plausible reason for turning on his best friend and partner? Or does Lion El'Jonson's reticence to speak about his past before the Order found him come from some dark secret? Are the Dark Angels hunting the Fallen to bring them to justice, or to silence the truth?

Good writing either way, in my book. I agree that regardless of what Luther and El'Jonson's motivations were, many of the marines following them may have been loyal but mislead.

Definitely keeps things interesting because you just don't know which side is really the right side. Of course the manipulations of chaos work in that way of twisting the truth just enough to show something different without changing the essence of the truth so it seems very plausible. So the whole "confession" could have just been more manipulation through a source that was allowed to be captured to make accusations about things, while the chaos powers, slow down El'Johnson's travel to earth so they can use the delay to their advantage. Such cool intrigues and twists and turns. So much more interesting than the World Eaters and "Angron Smash!!"...

Skriker

7 pages of discussion here.

Darrett wrote:

 Gabrial Seth wrote:
The Dark Angels are loyal seeing that the rest of the imperium of man doesn't know about the heresy it shouldn't be a big deal if you look outside of the unforgiven.

I think the Black Templars at least suspect it, depending on how much information was sent by the Ophidium Gulf before it was "disappeared".

I tend to think that they would at least have a strong distrust because of it, but not enough to send a ton of Templars to wipe out some DAs.

We will get to them soon enough. Been a little busy getting gak done for the Big E.