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KalashnikovMarine wrote: We as a culture I think seem to have issues with the concept of separatists. The possibility that individuals of a group don't want to live like the rest of us do and will go live their own way in the own place. I personally don't have an issue with it. If you have the money for such a project, the will and the people go for it so long as you follow all applicable law, who's it gonna really bother?
I don't think the issue is with seperatists, but with crazy seperatists. And these are genuine, 100% crazy ass lunatics. I mean, they've got rules and regulations for firearms so everyone is prepared if society comes down... but they've got no hospital.
It's gun fetishism that's trying to get a postcode.
.
All separatists get labeled crazy for one reason or another, no matter what their reasons might be for wanting to separate.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
sebster wrote: Right, because you can only tell an NRA ad that fails to understand the difference in security needs between the President's children and your average fourth grader is completely nutty when you're in the continental USA.
I don't know why the elitism in this post took me so off guard.
I'm a little surprised at you, seb.
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
sebster wrote: Right, because you can only tell an NRA ad that fails to understand the difference in security needs between the President's children and your average fourth grader is completely nutty when you're in the continental USA.
I don't know why the elitism in this post took me so off guard.
I'm a little surprised at you, seb.
What's so elitist about it?
The man has a point.
The First Family are legitimate targets of politically motivated violence, and as such have an armed security detail.
Your average fourth grader and their family is not such a target nor necessarily requiring that armed security detail at all times.
Kanluwen wrote: Your average fourth grader and their family is not such a target nor necessarily requiring that armed security detail at all times.
You're right, they aren't targets of violence. Right up until they are. Hence the topic of this thread.
No, the topic of this thread is the individuals who are suggesting that this incident is being covered up/misrepresented for some darker purpose.
This is an off topic tangent spawned from discussion of the original topic. Sebster's quote was in the context of a NRA ad which represented the president and his family as hypocrites because they have an armed security detail but are 'forbidding' the average fourth grader to have the same protection.
With that said:
These kinds of shootings are not going to be stopped. If elementary schools start having armed security details, you'll start seeing shootings at middle schools instead by these kinds of individuals.
Middle schools arm up, high schools become the targets.
High schools arm up, you'll start seeing daycares or other places where there is a perception of "no security" targeted instead.
Kanluwen wrote: Your average fourth grader and their family is not such a target nor necessarily requiring that armed security detail at all times.
You're right, they aren't targets of violence. Right up until they are. Hence the topic of this thread.
No, the topic of this thread is the individuals who are suggesting that this incident is being covered up/misrepresented for some darker purpose.
This is an off topic tangent spawned from discussion of the original topic. Sebster's quote was in the context of a NRA ad which represented the president and his family as hypocrites because they have an armed security detail but are 'forbidding' the average fourth grader to have the same protection.
With that said:
These kinds of shootings are not going to be stopped. If elementary schools start having armed security details, you'll start seeing shootings at middle schools instead by these kinds of individuals.
Middle schools arm up, high schools become the targets.
High schools arm up, you'll start seeing daycares or other places where there is a perception of "no security" targeted instead.
I'm more suprised that anyone thinks armed guards would make a place instantly safe from incident. The people who do this are already flying rodent gak anyway.
The topic of this thread mentions Sandy Hook. That was the point.
Your opinion that these shootings can't be stopped is well noted. It is also irrelevant. If a step could be taken to drop the death toll from 23 to 22 I would say that it was worth it.
@soladrin: that's not what people are saying.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/17 16:42:07
Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate.
Kanluwen wrote: Your average fourth grader and their family is not such a target nor necessarily requiring that armed security detail at all times.
You're right, they aren't targets of violence. Right up until they are. Hence the topic of this thread.
No, the topic of this thread is the individuals who are suggesting that this incident is being covered up/misrepresented for some darker purpose.
This is an off topic tangent spawned from discussion of the original topic. Sebster's quote was in the context of a NRA ad which represented the president and his family as hypocrites because they have an armed security detail but are 'forbidding' the average fourth grader to have the same protection.
With that said:
These kinds of shootings are not going to be stopped. If elementary schools start having armed security details, you'll start seeing shootings at middle schools instead by these kinds of individuals.
Middle schools arm up, high schools become the targets.
High schools arm up, you'll start seeing daycares or other places where there is a perception of "no security" targeted instead.
Except these incidents are stopped all the time. BY GOOD GUYS WITH GUNS.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
The only possably valid point here would be that Gun Control advocates are using this unfortunate event(and the others like that have occured) as a convenient excuse to ram through pointless gun control.
The event wasn't staged. its just a convenient excuse.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I'm more suprised that anyone thinks armed guards would make a place instantly safe from incident. The people who do this are already flying rodent gak anyway.
Except there have not been mass school shootings where an armed guard has been there... The perps may indeed be batcrap crazy, but they obviously are not stupid and choose gun free zones to commit their crimes. And I doubt anyone thinks armed guards make a place instantly safe, what they probably think is the armed guard makes it a less attractive target AND provides an on-site capability to stop a masacre before it gets too bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/17 18:54:20
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
What really amazes me is the high level of overlap between the groups who are promoting placing an armed police officer into every school and every street corner, etc. in order to prevent villains from shooting people, and the groups who stockpile guns because they're worried that the government will become tyrannical and invoke marshal law or something to that effect.
Honestly, the level of mental gymnastics required to reconcile those two is gold-medal worthy.
Soladrin wrote:I'm more suprised that anyone thinks armed guards would make a place instantly safe from incident. The people who do this are already flying rodent gak anyway.
I tend to agree. I seem to recall that Columbine High School actually had an armed officer on duty the day of its shooting.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Except these incidents are stopped all the time. BY GOOD GUYS WITH GUNS.
I'm more suprised that anyone thinks armed guards would make a place instantly safe from incident. The people who do this are already flying rodent gak anyway.
Except there have not been mass school shootings where an armed guard has been there... The perps may indeed be batcrap crazy, but they obviously are not stupid and choose gun free zones to commit their crimes. And I doubt anyone thinks armed guards make a place instantly safe, what they probably think is the armed guard makes it a less attractive target AND provides an on-site capability to stop a masacre before it gets too bad.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yup, it could take police a long while to get there. If there is an on-duty security guard, who is armed, it can prevent the situation from becoming worse than it already is.
Many schools already have security guards, its just a simple and relativly cheap matter of arming them and giving them appropriate training. The expense also will not be a significant impact on the schools budget given that firearms courses and the guns themselves are not super expensive.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Yup, it could take police a long while to get there. If there is an on-duty security guard, who is armed, it can prevent the situation from becoming worse than it already is.
Many schools already have security guards, its just a simple and relatively cheap matter of arming them and giving them appropriate training. The expense also will not be a significant impact on the schools budget given that firearms courses and the guns themselves are not super expensive.
...What budget are we talking about here?
Most schools are already stretched to the limit, budget-wise. I can't see them finding room for "armed private security".
Many schools do not have security guards, they have school resource officers--also known as police officers--who are armed.
azazel the cat wrote: What really amazes me is the high level of overlap between the groups who are promoting placing an armed police officer into every school and every street corner, etc. in order to prevent villains from shooting people, and the groups who stockpile guns because they're worried that the government will become tyrannical and invoke marshal law or something to that effect.
Honestly, the level of mental gymnastics required to reconcile those two is gold-medal worthy.
Soladrin wrote:I'm more suprised that anyone thinks armed guards would make a place instantly safe from incident. The people who do this are already flying rodent gak anyway.
I tend to agree. I seem to recall that Columbine High School actually had an armed officer on duty the day of its shooting.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Except these incidents are stopped all the time. BY GOOD GUYS WITH GUNS.
You're joking, right?
1. You're right. At Columbine there were armed guards. At the time their orders were to cordon off the area and wait for cops. If the orders are more correctly STOP THE BG then it has an effect. After all you can make the same argument anywhere, including a police station. However, mass murderers are usually cowards and won't go after a hard target. When confronted they typically surrender or run off and eat a bullet.
2. Stopped events This occurs all the time. Again FBI statistics typically denote over 1mm instances of brandishing or other nonshoots stopping a potential crime in its tracks. I'm not worried about the crazy (ok I'm worried about a stalker). But I'm worried for my wife about a mugger or assaulter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/17 19:03:32
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
azazel the cat wrote: What really amazes me is the high level of overlap between the groups who are promoting placing an armed police officer into every school and every street corner, etc. in order to prevent villains from shooting people, and the groups who stockpile guns because they're worried that the government will become tyrannical and invoke marshal law or something to that effect.
Honestly, the level of mental gymnastics required to reconcile those two is gold-medal worthy.
Soladrin wrote:I'm more suprised that anyone thinks armed guards would make a place instantly safe from incident. The people who do this are already flying rodent gak anyway.
I tend to agree. I seem to recall that Columbine High School actually had an armed officer on duty the day of its shooting.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Except these incidents are stopped all the time. BY GOOD GUYS WITH GUNS.
You're joking, right?
1. You're right. At Columbine there were armed guards. At the time their orders were to cordon off the area and wait for cops. If the orders are more correctly STOP THE BG then it has an effect. After all you can make the same argument anywhere, including a police station. However, mass murderers are usually cowards and won't go after a hard target. When confronted they typically surrender or run off and eat a bullet.
2. Stopped events This occurs all the time. Again FBI statistics typically denote over 1mm instances of brandishing or other nonshoots stopping a potential crime in its tracks.
I'm not worried about the crazy (ok I'm worried about a stalker). But I'm worried for my wife about a mugger or assaulter.
It's worth noting that Columbine High School's Sheriff's Deputy was off site when the Columbine shooters began their rampage
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well if they already have an armed guard thats great. This is for those that don't have a guard.
I figured out it shouldn't cost more than $1500 per security guard to get them a firearm, cleaning kit, and ammo. I would hope the school already does background checks on their employees. Then you have maybe a $500 fee to send the guard to a gunrange for a training course.
Then you have the guard go to the gun range each month for practice. Which is just a range fee plus ammo, maybe another $150 a month.
So ~$2000 up front and another ~$150 a month per security guard.
Hardly breaking the bank for the school, especially if they already have a security guard(s) that they are paying.
Can we really put a price on the safety of kids at schools? This is hardly a massivly expensive proposal. Given how much we spend on our education system, and that we have a rather poor one at that, there has to be waste somewhere that could easily be trimmed to pay for an armed guard(s).
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Except these incidents are stopped all the time. BY GOOD GUYS WITH GUNS.
You're joking, right?
Consider the following: (and I'm not counting the Giffords shooting, even though the guy who tackled the shooter had a CCW)
– Mayan Palace Theater, San Antonio, Texas, just in December: Jesus Manuel Garcia shoots at a movie theater, a police car and bystanders from the nearby China Garden restaurant; as he enters the movie theater, guns blazing, an armed off-duty cop shoots Garcia four times, stopping the attack. Total dead: Zero.
-Clackamas Town Center, right before Sandy Hook: Nick Meli confronted the shooter with his CCW, the shooter then ended his spree, withdrew to a stair well and killed himself. Total dead: Two
– Winnemucca, Nev., 2008: Ernesto Villagomez opens fire in a crowded restaurant; concealed carry permit-holder shoots him dead. Total dead: Two. (I’m excluding the shooters’ deaths in these examples.)
– Appalachian School of Law, 2002: Crazed immigrant shoots the dean and a professor, then begins shooting students; as he goes for more ammunition, two armed students point their guns at him, allowing a third to tackle him. Total dead: Three.
– Santee, Calif., 2001: Student begins shooting his classmates — as well as the “trained campus supervisor”; an off-duty cop who happened to be bringing his daughter to school that day points his gun at the shooter, holding him until more police arrive. Total dead: Two.
– Pearl High School, Mississippi, 1997: After shooting several people at his high school, student heads for the junior high school; assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieves a .45 pistol from his car and points it at the gunman’s head, ending the murder spree. Total dead: Two.
– Edinboro, Pa., 1998: A student shoots up a junior high school dance being held at a restaurant; restaurant owner pulls out his shotgun and stops the gunman. Total dead: One
The vast majority of these shootings happen at gun free zones. The shooters aren't stupid. They don't want people to be there to fight back, as the police trainer in the blog post above I linked mentioned it ruins the power fantasy when you're being actively resisted. Insight like that, especially based around the Columbine shootings "lessons learned" are why police procedure has changed completely for these situations. It used to be you secured the area and waited for a tactical team. Now as soon as you have two officers on hand you're through the door trying to put fire on the active shooter as quickly as possible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/17 19:15:28
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Really? The main reason I own a shotgun is for shooting trap and skeet. A rather fun hobby in my opinion.
OT - I haven't watched the video (yet), but it doesn't surprise me that somthing like this was released. The have conspiracy theories for damned near everything now.
Edit - Then again, you said "most" haha. Never mind me!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/17 19:16:24
Really? The main reason I own a shotgun is for shooting trap and skeet. A rather fun hobby in my opinion.
OT - I haven't watched the video (yet), but it doesn't surprise me that somthing like this was released. The have conspiracy theories for damned near everything now.
I have a shotgun for the mosquitoes. They get really big in Texas.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Really? The main reason I own a shotgun is for shooting trap and skeet. A rather fun hobby in my opinion.
OT - I haven't watched the video (yet), but it doesn't surprise me that somthing like this was released. The have conspiracy theories for damned near everything now.
I have a shotgun for the mosquitoes. They get really big in Texas.
Really? The main reason I own a shotgun is for shooting trap and skeet. A rather fun hobby in my opinion.
OT - I haven't watched the video (yet), but it doesn't surprise me that somthing like this was released. The have conspiracy theories for damned near everything now.
I have a shotgun for the mosquitoes. They get really big in Texas.
You need AAA in Alaska, skeeters up there come in single and twin engine varieties
I can't find the link, but there was another situation at a school where the armed officer on campus stopped a potentially violent situation before any one could be shot or injured. Can't remember where for the life of me though.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
HOLY COW! Are you sure that's a mosquito? It has to be fake. It's Alaskan propaganda to prove how tough they are. It has to be. I bet there's not even an Alaska.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well hey, if you don't believe in Alaskan mosquitos you can't believe in Chiggers either.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I can too believe in chiggers. They are tools of Satan sent to this world to wreak havoc on small children who like to roll around and play in the grass.
And I think I established that it's not just the mosquitoes I no longer believe in. I'm officially declaring Alaska to be a hoax.
grayshadow87 wrote: I can too believe in chiggers. They are tools of Satan sent to this world to wreak havoc on small children who like to roll around and play in the grass.
And I think I established that it's not just the mosquitoes I no longer believe in. I'm officially declaring Alaska to be a hoax.
Just a conspiracy of cartographers?
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
grayshadow87 wrote: I can too believe in chiggers. They are tools of Satan sent to this world to wreak havoc on small children who like to roll around and play in the grass.
And I think I established that it's not just the mosquitoes I no longer believe in. I'm officially declaring Alaska to be a hoax.
Just a conspiracy of cartographers?
Exactly. I'm glad to see you referencing such important historical documentaries on this very serious subject.
Can we really put a price on the safety of kids at schools?
There is something deeply wrong with a society that feels the need to post armed guards at schools.
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
Can we really put a price on the safety of kids at schools?
There is something deeply wrong with a society that feels the need to post armed guards at schools.
Why? Children aren't worth as much as your everyday bank?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
So here's a video summery of issues that people have with the Sandy Hook shooting. The two that stand out to me:
1. Initial reports suggested multiple shooters, police sweeps of the woods near the schools, multiple suspects detained. What happened to that?
2. The shooter's weapons. Lots and lots of contradiction there ranging from 2-4 handguns, a long gun in the trunk, to just the AR-15 and a shotgun in the trunk...
So all of this seems it could be fixed with clarification as opposed to 9/11 where as any good truther will tell you all the evidence was buried in the rubble.
Still completely freaking insane in the first place thought.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
And if you're drinkin' well, you know that you're my friend and I say "I think I'll have myself a beer" 
