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I've been toying with the idea of a DP in my CSM army after getting the idea to convert a Forgefiend into one. I'm just wondering how effective they can be on the tabletop. This is my current 2k list:

I like closing the gap and assaulting quickly, so the DP would have wings, though he'd mainly be Gliding rather than Swooping. I'm thinking Nurgle DP with Wings, PA, I'm not sure if they can take Blight Grenades because of the whole "Mark of whatever or Daemon of Whatever" difference, and maybe the Mace. Or a DoK and the AoBF.

They are very effective. Just not points efficient. Your best bet is the mace. With it he can wreck low toughness units and scare units like wraiths or terminators with its "no saves of any kind" property.

Yea they are definitely worth it. Whenever I field him, which is always, he is usually takes the bulk of my opponents shots. I run mine as:

Wings
Power Armor
Daemon of Tzeentch
Black Mace
Gift of Mutation

Man,

Khorne DP
Wings
PA
Axe of wtfspwn

and you are looking at WS8, Ini 8 STR 9 on charge

That thing just kills everything on its way...

 Solomongrundy wrote:
Yea they are definitely worth it. Whenever I field him, which is always, he is usually takes the bulk of my opponents shots. I run mine as:

Wings
Power Armor
Daemon of Tzeentch
Black Mace
Gift of Mutation

This is how I run mine. It's really effective vs some armies, and not so effective against others. I think this is the most competitive way to run one.

Man,

Khorne DP
Wings
PA
Axe of wtfspwn

and you are looking at WS8, Ini 8 STR 9 on charge

That thing just kills everything on its way...

The only problem with this, is with the lowered WS. WS4 Units will now hit you on 4's instead of 5s, with the WS9. Still killy of course, nothing should survive after a charge anyway

Black mace will still kill more and you can get strength 10 for exchanging 2 attacks. (half of profile)
Only debate i have is if to give him any psychic powers?
This also allows deny the witch rolls to be improved.
Having said that, I like ML3 sorc in term armor and a chaos lord with MON to make plague marines troops so i don't often field him.

 jegsar wrote:
Black mace will still kill more and you can get strength 10 for exchanging 2 attacks. (half of profile)
Only debate i have is if to give him any psychic powers?
This also allows deny the witch rolls to be improved.
Having said that, I like ML3 sorc in term armor and a chaos lord with MON to make plague marines troops so i don't often field him.

After Wings, PA, and the Black Mace, adding sorcerer levels is jacking up an already super expensive Model. I personally think Sorcerers can do Psychic powers just fine, can hide in units, and are a lot cheaper.

That is why i don't end up using the DP... and PMs as troops are too good not to use with typhus/chaos lord.

I plan on using one this weekend. Standard Wings, PA, Mace, maybe the invuln, and a mark. Should be able to pop a transport then wreck its crew in the charge.

I would probably include at least 1 DP in every csm list I ran. Still haven't settled on a layout for wargear and what not.

I've been messing with DP's for a bit, and I'm not sold on them yet.
They're either moderately expensive generalist HQ's, or really expensive and can do anything pretty well.

I like sorcerers better, personally. Lots of nice psychic powers, not expensive. And I like me some psychic powers.

i've been thinking Typhus and Sorc. Psyichic powers and defenses too valuable to not use, but you need the lord to get Noise marines/plauge marines as troops. If you are going more undivided... then i could see a sorc and DP.

 Solomongrundy wrote:
Yea they are definitely worth it. Whenever I field him, which is always, he is usually takes the bulk of my opponents shots. I run mine as:

Wings
Power Armor
Daemon of Tzeentch
Black Mace
Gift of Mutation

Probably the best build out there. The Gift is needed just for the chance of having a totally wreck-face unit become nigh unkillable (2+ armor, +1 toughness, Eternal Warrior, etc). This unit totally changes how your opponent will play their game.
If I had to change this, I might drop the mace and get level 1 or 2 mastery level, haven't toyed with this yet but rolling on Biomancy doesn't seem like a bad idea. I wish you didn't have to roll on the chaos powers once though... ah well.

I play a doubles game with a CSM partner who used a Daemon Prince against BT & DA, the DP got grounded by bolters and Las cannon to death by turn 2. Next I played against CSM with a DP, the 2 Annihilation Barges grounded and killed it again on turn 2.

It seems if your going to use a DP it should be out of LOS for most of the early game and more of a clean up unit than a first wave unit. Since it will obliterate pretty much most units in CC people tend to pour a large portion of their fire power into it early on. Unlike Flyers, even getting a hit on a DP is cause for concern, if it gets grounded it's amour Save and relativity weak Toughness is a huge weakness.

My opponent and I was comparing our HQ after the match. I run a D.Lord in a pack of wraiths, which were the MVP of the match. With T6 +2 MSS and wound pool of 12 ++3 extra, the D.Lord makes a great Warlord compared the the DP. Now the DP has a super impressive stat line and in a Challenge will totally crush most other HQ's in the game but is very venerable in the shooting phase. Mass fire will easily wipe out the unit and assaulting enemy's in terrain is risky thanks to the lack of grenades.

Personally I find Lords on Steeds/bikes to be a better use of a HQ slot and points.

I play a doubles game with a CSM partner who used a Daemon Prince against BT & DA, the DP got grounded by bolters and Las cannon to death by turn 2. Next I played against CSM with a DP, the 2 Annihilation Barges grounded and killed it again on turn 2.

What Configuration were you running it in? How did two Abarges kill your DP? Did they roll really well? Are you taking Tzeentch for the Rerolls to 1 on your Armor saves?

Tzeentch is almost like him having Terminator Armor, so it's pretty decent. I find that they tend to attract a lot of firepower, but they rarely die as quickly as turn 2.

 Sasori wrote:

I play a doubles game with a CSM partner who used a Daemon Prince against BT & DA, the DP got grounded by bolters and Las cannon to death by turn 2. Next I played against CSM with a DP, the 2 Annihilation Barges grounded and killed it again on turn 2.

What Configuration were you running it in? How did two Abarges kill your DP? Did they roll really well? Are you taking Tzeentch for the Rerolls to 1 on your Armor saves?

Tzeentch is almost like him having Terminator Armor, so it's pretty decent. I find that they tend to attract a lot of firepower, but they rarely die as quickly as turn 2.

Well my opponent got first turn and was being very aggressive with his prince to threaten my warrior blob. I did roll very well with the Barges resulting in 18 wounds. I chose a rare example buts it a apparent that being T5 +3Sv is a delicate platform for such a huge threat.

The Tzeentch DP does seem the best way to field a DP but I am confused as to why re-rolling 1 is considered like having a +2 Sv. AP3 still ignores the DP save. I don't know the mathhammer behind it but I can guess it ends being close to the +2 Sv average in most cases.


I suppose DP might need a CSM army build around it instead of slotting it into one. Most CSM players I know are still getting to terms with the new codex are having to radically change their lists. Maybe you could keep it in reserve with two HellDrakes, having (hopefully) 3 flyers that are immediate threat all arrive at the same turn would give a DP less target priority.

So what army style do you think complements a Daemon Prince?

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

I play a doubles game with a CSM partner who used a Daemon Prince against BT & DA, the DP got grounded by bolters and Las cannon to death by turn 2. Next I played against CSM with a DP, the 2 Annihilation Barges grounded and killed it again on turn 2.

What Configuration were you running it in? How did two Abarges kill your DP? Did they roll really well? Are you taking Tzeentch for the Rerolls to 1 on your Armor saves?

Tzeentch is almost like him having Terminator Armor, so it's pretty decent. I find that they tend to attract a lot of firepower, but they rarely die as quickly as turn 2.

Well my opponent got first turn and was being very aggressive with his prince to threaten my warrior blob. I did roll very well with the Barges resulting in 18 wounds. I chose a rare example buts it a apparent that being T5 +3Sv is a delicate platform for such a huge threat.

The Tzeentch DP does seem the best way to field a DP but I am confused as to why re-rolling 1 is considered like having a +2 Sv. AP3 still ignores the DP save. I don't know the mathhammer behind it but I can guess it ends being close to the +2 Sv average in most cases.


I suppose DP might need a CSM army build around it instead of slotting it into one. Most CSM players I know are still getting to terms with the new codex are having to radically change their lists. Maybe you could keep it in reserve with two HellDrakes, having (hopefully) 3 flyers that are immediate threat all arrive at the same turn would give a DP less target priority.

So what army style do you think complements a Daemon Prince?

18 wounds on 2 abarges is pretty insane, nothing is surviving that. As for the 2+, I said it was almost like a two plus save, for reasons such as AP3. The Tzeentch Pays dividends when comes to small arms though.

The most important thing is playing Smart with the Damon Prince. I think the problem is, a lot of people just swoop it all the way forward, in front of their armies. It ends up putting an even bigger target on it's head, in these cases. I also never make it my Warlord, as people will focus on it even more.

Heldrakes, and a faster moving army will help. I still use Rhinos myself. Putting a lot of pressure quickly on enemies to muddle target priority helps as well. Enemies may focus a ton of firepower on a DP, but what are they going to do now, when that 10 man Slaaneshi Biker unit with FNP is now on them?

The most mistakes I see with DP's, are made in the movement phase. People are being too aggressive with them, and they are at their most vulnerable when they can be shot at. Statistically, it should take at least 3 separate units shooting at him to ground him successively, as he will only take one grounding test per unit, that hits him. So, knowing what units can bring volume of shots, and their range should be taken into account. Premeasuring can help here. He only has to move 12' to swoop.

 Solomongrundy wrote:
Yea they are definitely worth it. Whenever I field him, which is always, he is usually takes the bulk of my opponents shots. I run mine as:

Wings
Power Armor
Daemon of Tzeentch
Black Mace
Gift of Mutation

I thought DPs didn't have Champion of Chaos so GoM didn't work...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Solomongrundy wrote:
Yea they are definitely worth it. Whenever I field him, which is always, he is usually takes the bulk of my opponents shots. I run mine as:

Wings
Power Armor
Daemon of Tzeentch
Black Mace
Gift of Mutation

I thought DPs didn't have Champion of Chaos so GoM didn't work...

The Gift of Mutation upgrade, has nothing to do with Champion of Chaos.

I vote nay, massive nerf and points increase, but loss of eternal warrior really makes them unusable. Having your 250 point prince get one shotted by a railgun or the equivalent isn't worth it.

Perhaps give him 3 mastery levels and roll for biomancy Iron arm or endurance would benefit a prince greatly possibly making him Str10 T8 with it will not die regening wounds also FNP however this comes up to 340pts pretty hefty for a HQ choice i could get a unit if 8 slaanesh termies with all the trimmings

Mine was shot at and grounded too. He managed to get into combat with 1 wound left! Needless to say he didn't do much for his points cost. I wish i could give him a better save (he should have that 3+ as standard!).

Don't think i will bother with him next time. If i want stuff flying i'll take flyers and get cheaper lords.

I play my dp ml3, mace, daemon of tzeench, gom, power armor and wings (350 pts, i know, so only in 2k+ pts)
another dp variant i play is ml3, daemon of slaanesh,power armor, gom and a spell fmiliar. ((280pts)for that for that extra oblit) Either way I always try for those two rolls on the biomancy, because endurance and iron arm are worth it, and if worst comes to worst i can swap for the slaanesh primaris power and biomancy primaris power which gives the dp an assault 4 ap2 (which eats meq and termies) and an assualt 4 ap4 attacks before it charges (still gets a wound or two on meq), and still be able to pop off any other biomancy power that is non witchfire like iron arm, endurance, warp speed, or enfeeble, all of which can give an advantage in combat.
That said if i wanted a great psyker i would take a non marked scorcer with ml3 and get 3 rolls on the biomancy table, which basically guarantees you to get something good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The ideal cheap dp would be power armor, wings, gom and the black mace, and dot. That said that has no psychic powers and is still 275 pts, which is why i like that slaanesh variant i posted because it has 2 1/6 chances for iron arm or endurance, and if that fails it can still have a shooting attack that lets it regain wounds, an blessing for up to 3 extra initiative and attacks, the ability to make the unit it intends to charge loose 1 strength and toughness (great for charging a t4 individual character like a space marine captain, or models with strength multiplying weapons (cough terminators).

A Slaanesh Demon Prince on foot with Power Armor is relatively cheap (not moreso than a lord on a bike or steed kitted out) and gets into combat quickly enough with Fleet and the +D3 to run.

for the best invul save possible its best to go with a nurgle prince because of the shroud you can evade or just be in area for a 3+ which is way better then his 5+ be warned though they have a tendacy to be a small black hole on what ever he attacks because unless its a blob of 50 dudes he is gonna kill them all and then get shot to death so if played correctly and placed carefully you might get to kill 2 things

Come to a, maybe controversial, conclusion after my last game:
The Black Mace is WORSE for your Daemon Prince than just using him without a special upgraded weapon.

Why? A Black Mace Prince will almost never be stuck in combat during your opponents turn. He will, most likely, charge, wipe the floor with whatever he is fighting, kill them badly then overrun the survivors (if there are any). A regular prince at least has a chance of being stuck in. And he needs to be stuck in. If he isn't, he sure isn't flying around after winning in combat, then you're just using a 3+/5+ toughness 5 dude. And he ain't going to last long.

My new build and I will probably stick with this until a new Codex comes out:
Daemon Prince
Tzeentch
Armor
Wings
Gift

Keep it simple, survivable and slim. Fly him up near LOS blocking terrain, make the opponent react to a super deadly unit, and hopefully have him win me some games.
I think it comes down to you can't just move him up as fast as you can and let him "get grounded and shot up." If you're in the open, 9/10 of your games will have that outcome for the Prince. Deploy him apart from your force. Move him up a flank. Fly from big terrain to big terrain. Only be exposed to 1 or 2 units at a time. This is doable. If that means you don't make it to combat until turn 4, then you don't make it to combat till turn 4. Nothing is going to beat him in CC, as most people have alluded to. Just make sure he gets there and you're golden!

Brings me to just one more point: Don't play on pool-tables (tables with little or no terrain). My group has found that having big chunky pieces here and there make the game significantly more fun. Plus, it makes the Prince significantly more lively. And a lively Prince is a DEADLY one.

The answer to that in a lot of cases is to challenge in the first turn of combat, then wipe the unit out in the second...

 Hedgehog wrote:
The answer to that in a lot of cases is to challenge in the first turn of combat, then wipe the unit out in the second...

I'm not sure about your experiences thus far, but my opponents are starting to understand that they are losing close combat vs. the mace prince no matter what, so they usually just refuse the challenge and want to lose the combat in one round. Have you noticed this?

 Brymm wrote:

 Hedgehog wrote:
The answer to that in a lot of cases is to challenge in the first turn of combat, then wipe the unit out in the second...

I'm not sure about your experiences thus far, but my opponents are starting to understand that they are losing close combat vs. the mace prince no matter what, so they usually just refuse the challenge and want to lose the combat in one round. Have you noticed this?

If they refuse the challenge to try and lose the combat, try smash attacks. Not sure, but if the Mace's 'kill everything' effect happens after the morale check, then reducing your regular attacks should keep their morale high enough that they stay in combat more often than not.