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I am developing the fluff for my regiment and part of the fluff is that they are a Manufactorum world, and I wanted to integrate a significant Mechanicus presence into my army lists (Concordian PDF, Mechanicus oversight of Regimental operations during some missions, and perhaps even the regiment working for the Mechanicus during some operations).

I chose this route by emulating the Vostroyan model - Vostroya is a Manufactorum world with a ruling council, which contains Mechanicus adepts as well as the traditional Imperial planetary government bodies.

This opens up quite a bit of fluff options for me, including political intrigue between the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Departmento Munitorum, the Inquisition, et cetra.

However, would it be a terrible violation of fluff to have a planet with a dual-governance split between fealty to the Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperium of Man? As I said, Vostroya is an example, but it is perhaps famous largely because it is uniquely so.

Does this offend anyone's sense of fluff or anything, and if so, why?

The chart in the 6E rulebook establishes a firm jurisdictional barrier between the Adeptus Mechanicus and its Forge Worlds, and your standard Imperial world which would fall under the purview of the Adeptus Administratum. Even Vostroya would be an "Administratum world" as it is tithed by the Munitorum - the Mechanicus presence there is, or so I assume, simply a leftover from the days Vostroya favoured Mars.

Keep in mind that the Adeptus Terra does not care how an Imperial world is governed, as long as it has a dedicated leader as a point of contact, and said leader acknowledges the world's fealty to the Imperium. It would be perfectly viable to include a Mechanicus presence in the planet's governance similar to Vostroya, operating under voluntary acceptance of the Imperial Commander. The world and the regiments it raises would officially still owe loyalty to the Administratum, but just like the Ministorum has a lot of unofficial influence even outside its Shrine Worlds, so could the Adeptus Mechanicus have unofficial influence in the planet you aim to create.

Also, the Adeptus Mechanicus is part of the Imperium of Man, the latter being the umbrella term for the unity of the Adepta Terra, Mechanicus and Ministorum, and the worlds entrusted to their care, or that of one of their subsidiary organisations.

My two bolt shells.

Orestes in Titanicus appears to have a similar dual governance system. It was a forgeworld and basically had an Adeptus Mechanicus government and a civilian one (and iirc, there was a pretty big conflict caused by that duality).

So yeah, the precedent exists.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
However, would it be a terrible violation of fluff to have a planet with a dual-governance split between fealty to the Adeptus Mechanicus and Imperium of Man?

As Lynata mentioned, it's not correct to contrast the Adeptus Mechanicus with the Imperium. The Imperium is the union of Mars and Terra. Mars and Terra are allied, interdependent, sovereign powers. Usually, whole worlds are governed either by the government of Terra -- the Administratum -- or the Adeptus Mechanicus. That said, I think you could still have sovereign Martian holdings on a Terran-governed planet, similar to the theory of extraterritoriality when it comes to embassies on foreign soil.

Thanks a lot guys.

Would it be feasible to have a Mechanicus-operated forge on a continent on the world?

For example, the other hive-manufactorums produce regular Chimeras, LRBTs and Lasguns, while the continent-spanning Infernus Forge in the northern hemisphere produces Vanquisher tanks, superheavies, and anything else within its capabilities and with permission from a mother Forge World such as Stratix or some other one in the Segmentum Tempestus?

I imagine governance upon these types of worlds would be much like the United States Republic.

1 Lord Governor who's major responsibility is the military.

Dozens or perhaps even hundreds of Tech Adepts (magi more than likely) acting as the Planetary Senate, and really the ones responsible for the major decisions - like the answer to your second question, which is yes - but remember, the more arable land you designate for industry, you will lose almost twice as much from pollution and residency. So one continent will cost the planet 3.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
I imagine governance upon these types of worlds would be much like the United States Republic.

1 Lord Governor who's major responsibility is the military.

Dozens or perhaps even hundreds of Tech Adepts (magi more than likely) acting as the Planetary Senate, and really the ones responsible for the major decisions - like the answer to your second question, which is yes - but remember, the more arable land you designate for industry, you will lose almost twice as much from pollution and residency. So one continent will cost the planet 3.

Well that's why I did it - I like the grimdarkness of an overpolluted manufacturing world such as Armageddon and any Forge World ever that has to import food and water, and you have to have skin-covering clothing to survive outside of designated areas (i.e. the buildings).

It's actually the reason the planet fields Armored Regiments - the LRBT and Chimera can be made NBC proof, iirc, allowing them to operate in hazardous atmospheric environs with ease.

No, I don't think that Mars and Terra work together as separate branches of the same government. This isn't like the Executive and the Legislative branches. Mars exercises its own executive, legislative, and judicial authority as to itself and NOT as to Terra; and vice versa. If the Mechanicus Adpetus operates a manufactorum on a world that is not part of the Martian empire, the ground upon which that manufactorum is built would be considered Martian soil. Again, this is just like the concept of extraterritoriality.

The other possibility would be that the Tech Priests are called in as consultants, a la Engineseers serving with the IG.

 Manchu wrote:
No, I don't think that Mars and Terra work together as separate branches of the same government. This isn't like the Executive and the Legislative branches. Mars exercises its own executive, legislative, and judicial authority as to itself and NOT as to Terra; and vice versa. If the Mechanicus Adpetus operates a manufactorum on a world that is not part of the Martian empire, the ground upon which that manufactorum is built would be considered Martian soil. Again, this is just like the concept of extraterritoriality.

Alright, so the Infernus Forge would be Martian territory, and any Imperial citizens wishing to do anything with it would have to get through the Wall of Iron (or Ring of Iron, or whatever it's called) just to get into the Forge at all, with all of the passport-checking and customs offices that entails (as it were).

Yeah, that's feasible. The Adeptus Mechanicus is very, very secretive so I can imagine them requiring proper authorization to enter their space. Just keep in mind that Tech-Priests are also "Imperial citizens" (or technically, Imperial subjects).

Also, not every manufactorum in the Imperium is run by the Adeptus Mechanicus even if Tech Priest consultants are present.

 Manchu wrote:
Also, not every manufactorum in the Imperium is run by the Adeptus Mechanicus even if Tech Priest consultants are present.

Yes, there are other Manufactorums on the planet which are not Martian soverign territory but do have Mechanicus consultants, as you say. These just produce basic Imperial equipment though.

In spite of the risk to get back to "that ole' debate", there is nothing in the books remotely supporting the idea of embassy-like extraterritorialities on Administratum worlds.

Manchu - you keep pushing that idea about some "Terran Empire" and "Martian Empire" still existing in M41 ... they may have been called that in the past before the Great Crusade, but ever since Earth and Mars were unified under the Aquila, there is just the Imperium, and all its worlds are linked via the connection their respectively responsible Adepta have as subordinates to the Senatorum Imperialis, as shown on the chart in the 6E rulebook.
Hence there is no Terran Empire, there are Imperial worlds under administration by the Adeptus Terra - just like there is no Martian Empire, there are Imperial worlds under administration by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Same for the Ministorum. And if the Emperor and the High Lords form a piece of the Imperium's overall government, then yes, the various Adepta work like branches to it. Again, as shown on the chart.

OP: if you are looking for having manufactoriums on your world producing large quantities of wargear, whilst the planet in question still not being a Forge World under direct rule of the Mechanicus, then I suppose Armageddon would indeed be an excellent example.

If I recall correctly, Armageddon even had a representative from the Mechanicus in its war council during the Third War, together with members of the other major Imperial Adepta. Codex Armageddon should have the details.

 Lynata wrote:
there is nothing in the books remotely supporting the idea of embassy-like extraterritorialities on Administratum worlds

Immaterial. I made the suggestion based on the logical consequences of Martian sovereignty rather than the same idea having already been published by GW.

 Lynata wrote:
Manchu - you keep pushing that idea about some "Terran Empire" and "Martian Empire" still existing in M41 ...

Lynata, please re-read the last 5000+ words I wrote to you on this subject.

To OP, Lynata is incorrect. When the Emperor made his treaty with Mars incorporating the Martian empire into the Imperium, he guaranteed Martian sovereignty. The Adpetus Mechanicus is only a part of the Imperium on the condition that it is politically and religiously independent from the Terran side of things (for example, the Administratum has no authority over Martian territories). The High Lords, a.k.a., Senatorum Imperialis is a body constituted by representatives from all the Imperial institutions, including the Mechanicum. The role of this body is to manage the ancient treaties that bind the Imperium together and so govern it, in an extremely high-level sense. The Emperor himself used to do this but you know how it goes, gotta invent the human version of the webway, gotta sit on a Golden Throne.

Yeah I'm standing with Lynata and my previous statement, the Mechanicus is part of the Imperium, if you want them as a governing body over imperial citizen's I see no reason why that wouldn't be the case. If worse comes to worse, the Mechanicus has almost the exact powers as the inquisition when it comes to requisitioning aid from the Imperium because everyone knows the Imperium would fall without them. If they deem it prudent to fuel the fires of their forges with the warm flesh of Imperial citizen's, the Inquisition would probably find an excuse to direct "Red Ships" directly into the flames.

As an addendum:

There is a blessing with Manchu's argument however, as it gives you more options. He is correct that the Mechanicus and Terra are separate governments and organizational body's, but it is also completely plausible to have a planet under the joint custody of both sovereign arms of the Imperium. The symbol of the Imperium is after all, a double headed aquilla.... and though pledged first and foremost to the Imperium with a militant leader (nothing saying that it too cannot be a magos) who must answer to the administratum on Terra, the vast majority of decisions could still be made by a planetary body made of Tech Adepts.

As an example, I think of it as Indian reservations in the US. Most still have some federal or state practices that pretty much allow Native American's born on the reservation to become American citizens without penalty and depending on the independence of the reservation, may or may not actually have laws extending into their territory. Some states force their legal hand into the affairs of Indians, others have been legally expelled from their land.

You, as the creator of this lore can really write the treaty and your planet to be as independent or dependent of the Administratum as you wish. It just means there will be consequences in both directions of your alignment.

No one is contesting that the Adpetus Mechanicus is part of the Imperium. It certainly is. But it is a sovereign sub-empire. As I mentioned, this was explicitly guaranteed by the Emperor in the treaty that unified Mars and Terra as the Imperium of Man.

Also, the jurisdiction of the Adeptus Mechanicus is nothing like that of the Inquisition. Despite our other disagreement, I don't think you will find Lynata backing that particular error. The Inquisition stands directly under the Golden Throne alongside the High Lords themselves. Its authority reaches down into the Adpetus Mechanicus just as much as it does into the Adeptus Terra.

And yet it can requisition the help of anyone it wishes if there is a mere fragment of a STC at stake. Much the same as an Inquisitor who believes there is a heretic presence.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
And yet it can requisition the help of anyone it wishes if there is a mere fragment of a STC at stake. Much the same as an Inquisitor who believes there is a heretic presence.

Well they can try to; the Imperial Guard (or Space Marines) don't necessarily have to help I don't think. Although they will definitely face Mechanicus sanctions if they don't.

Manchu wrote:To OP, Lynata is incorrect. When the Emperor made his treaty with Mars incorporating the Martian empire into the Imperium, he guaranteed Martian sovereignty.

The rulebook states that the sovereignty of the Mechanicus' Forge Worlds would be respected. Which (a) is quite different from claiming that some sort of Martian Empire still exists and (b) is actually somewhat open to interpretation. It means that the Emperor treated those planets differently than most and they continue to enjoy a lesser degree of outside interference even in M41.

Find me any mentioning of a "Terran Empire" or a "Martian Empire" in GW's fluff on this time period and I'll shut up.

It really is just that the term you're using here implies so much more than what the Mechanicus is doing. "Network" or "semi-sovereign branch of the IoM" would be much more fitting. The empire is the Imperium, controlled by the High Lords in representation of the Emperor. Both the Adeptus Terra and the Adeptus Mechanicus are ... Adepta. Parts of its structure and internal hierarchy.
As I mentioned in our last discourse, the Ministorum would qualify for your definition of an "empire" as well (network of Shrine Worlds controlled by a central authority that operates independently from the Adeptus Terra), but nobody would call it that way.

DemetriDominov wrote:You, as the creator of this lore can really write the treaty and your planet to be as independent or dependent of the Administratum as you wish. It just means there will be consequences in both directions of your alignment.

Aye. You need to pick one of the three Adepta to which the planet is ultimately attached to - it does not mean that the others will have zero influence. The High Lords themselves won't care, for an Imperial world is an Imperial world, and as Vostroya has shown, even the Adeptus Terra is quite okay with a Mechanicus presence in the government so long as the planet is paying its debts to the Imperium and can (at least as per their assumption) be relied upon to follow orders passed along the usual chain.

It certainly offers a lot of potential for political scheming.

 Lynata wrote:
The rulebook states that the sovereignty of the Mechanicus' Forge Worlds would be respected. Which (a) is quite different from claiming that some sort of Martian Empire still exists and (b) is actually somewhat open to interpretation.

(a) It is no different. The Forge Worlds together constitute Mars and its colonies. (The term I use for this is "Martian empire." If you prefer, we can call it "Mars and its colonies" on the one hand and "Terra and its colonies" on the other from now on.) Respecting the sovereignty of the Forge Worlds means that Mars and its colonies are sovereign as against Terra and its colonies. There is nothing anywhere in the published material to indicate any change in the treaties between Terra and Mars since the Emperor first negotiated them. (b) None of the foregoing is open to interpretation for the simple reasons that no contradictory source exists and the statement is complete of itself. The question is, is Mars sovereign? The quoted sources say explicitly, yes it is. Thus, fan interpretation is not necessary and so undertaking it puts us in the realm of hombrew/fanfiction.

Perhaps you are imagining more than I am saying. The Adpetus Mechanicus is more than a "network" (which is, however, an appropriate description for the Ecclesiarchy) BUT it is interdependent as to the institutions of Terra and its colonies. This was my major conclusion from the Moirae Heresy thread, wherein we basically worked out how the Imperium manages to stick together. It is not a strict top-down system. Rather, it is a tightly knit alliance of autocephalous agencies that constantly seek to dominate one another so as to maintain their autonomy. What binds them so closely together despite their jurisdictional phobias is necessity. The Moirae Heresy shows how the Adeptus Mechanicus cannot survive without the Ecclesiarchy even though it finds the Terran state religion to be repugnant.

I find the concept behind your thread interesting Manchu, can you give a link please?

Also, like the example of Vostroya before, it is possible to have a governing body with a duality between agencies, suggesting that as different and far apart the cult is away from Terra, they do in times find common ground.

"Mars and its colonies" indeed seems a lot more fitting, though I'm still not entirely comfortable with it. Why don't we all just say "Forge Worlds", like GW does it all the time?

Forge Worlds being Imperial worlds administered by the Adeptus Mechanicus, which in turn is headquartered on Mars and who are not subject to decrees passed by the Adeptus Terra (or the Ministorum, for that matter).
Basically, my issue with the whole "empire" talk is that it sounds as if we'd be talking about different countries or realms, when the Imperium is a single nation. The usage of this term moves the focus away from the Imperium and lets it appear like a loose coalition of equal partners with no supreme leadership. Maybe it has been at some point in time, but it certainly doesn't look like it anymore. Now we have the High Lords > all.
Well, except the Inquisition.

Also, since we do not know what the Emperor's treaties actually say, there remains more necessity for fan interpretation than you claim. You are interpreting things yourself, starting with what the treaty means in detail. For example, we know that Inquisitors are authorised to commandeer entire Titan Legions if it suits them, which directly contradicts the meaning of absolute sovereignty - for this would mean the Mechanicus wouldn't have to take orders from anyone. So unless there's a conflict between the material, it must be "limited sovereignty", which in turn means that we have a lot to speculate about details.

As for the Ecclesiarchy, I still don't see the difference. Both the Adeptus Mechanicus as well as the Ecclesiarchy are networks in a professional sense, sending forth their people to various Imperial worlds and establishing dependencies to offer their services. Both the AdMech and the Ministorum are also networks in a territorial sense in that they have been granted control over a number of worlds independent from the Adeptus Terra. I'm almost tempted to say "realm" myself, but it just doesn't feel appropriate in this context... Perhaps it could be likened to the fiefs granted to the Space Marines, just a lot larger (and more dispersed)?

Regarding the Imperium's organisation - to me it does seem like a top-down system in a sense in that the High Lords have the ultimate power. The alliances (and rivalries) of the various Adepta who seek to dominate one another also exist in that these organisations can gain influence in the Senate by having one of their own, or an ally, become a High Lord, or gain a High Lord's support. So it is actually a sort of mix, like in Ancient Rome, just with bureaucracies rather than families. But in the end, what the High Lords decree is the Emperor's will and thus it becomes law for everyone.

Manchu wrote:The Moirae Heresy shows how the Adeptus Mechanicus cannot survive without the Ecclesiarchy even though it finds the Terran state religion to be repugnant.

The Imperium's state religion. The Mechanicus has been granted an exemption from this law, as the rulebook says. But what had the Ecclesiarchy to do with saving the Mechanicus? From what I've read, it was an entirely internal matter of the hardliners putting down a bunch of schismatics. I don't know of any Ecclesiarchal assistance, but even then, what form could it take that it would be deemed a necessity?
Maybe I just missed something.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
I find the concept behind your thread interesting Manchu, can you give a link please?

Sure.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/457902.page

It's a long read but I really learned a lot by arguing it out and researching the points. Lynata and I went ten rounds on the subject of what constitutes the published background and you can mostly skip over that stuff.

From my POV, here's the quick version:

 Manchu wrote:
Most importantly, I have learned that, as a matter of the constitution of the Imperium, the Emperor's titles cannot be conflated with one another. That is the central point of the Moirae Schism: the idea that the Omnissiah could also be the God-Emperor threatened the Cult Mechanicus because it would mean acknowledging the God-Emperor's existence and therefore the authority of the Ecclesiarchy, which would in turn threaten Martian sovereignty. And that sovereignty, guaranteed by the Emperor in his treaty with Mars, is a cornerstone of the Imperium itself. In that sense, the Moirae Schism was a threat to the Imperium itself.

And understanding that has given me greater insight into both the Nova Terra Interregnum and the Ecclesiarchy. The Ur-Council was able to secede from Terra precisely because the Ecclesiarchy was hobbled by the Apdetus Mechanicus and others in M34 and M35. The Nova Terra Interregnum shows how important the Ecclesiarchy is to the stability of the Terran empire and so also the hierarchically superior Imperium. Thus, by the end of M35, after avoiding its own secession crisis -- which was only possible because of the chaos of the Terran secession crisis -- Mars would have been less able and less eager to oppose the Ecclesiarchy. Lo and behold, in the absence of Martian opposition, the Ecclesiarchy became more powerful than it had ever been and launched of its own accord the War of Faith that destroyed the Ur-Council and reunified the Terran empire -- and thus also the Imperium.

Furthermore, understanding this let's you understand what happens next -- the Age of Apostasy. Why was the Ecclesiarchy so powerful in those days? How was Goge Vandire able to unify the Administratum and Ecclesiarchy? Why was he ultimately unsuccessful? Understanding Martian sovereignty and the crucial role of the Ecclesiarchy in the unity of the Imperium are necessary to understand the Age of Apostasy. And going even further in the timeline, understanding the independence of the Ecclesiarchy in more recent epochs is contingent upon understanding the crises created by Goge Vandire. It is fascinating that such a huge, powerful institution like the Imperium is so fragile -- it relies entirely on the delicate balancing of unity and independence, authority and sovereignty -- and so its structure must be "gothic." So now I've gotten an insight into the broadest aesthetic elements of the setting.

 Lynata wrote:
"Mars and its colonies" indeed seems a lot more fitting, though I'm still not entirely comfortable with it. Why don't we all just say "Forge Worlds", like GW does it all the time?

The definition of "Forge Worlds" is "Mars and its colonies" (a.k.a., the Martian empire). The reason it is important to mention this is because you need to do a lot of deep reading to "get" Martian sovereignty. Most people think of the Imperium as Terra and everything it controls because the Golden Throne is on Terra. But the Imperium is actually Mars and Terra unified forever. They are mutually dependent, as we can see from the Nova Terra Interregnum and Moirae Schism. Mars and its colonies do indeed represent a different "realm" and the Imperium is not a "nation." It is the union of realms. (I am loathe to use IRL historical examples but the Holy Roman Empire comes strongly to mind in this case.) The High Lords are the highest functionaries of the institutions comprising this union. I think there are two major elements to note: the High Lords (a) rule the union (i.e., not the constituents) (b) together as one body and not as individual High Lords (which makes me suspect that they do not "vote" on issues).

 Lynata wrote:
Also, since we do not know what the Emperor's treaties actually say, there remains more necessity for fan interpretation than you claim.

Immaterial. The source says the treaty guaranteed the sovereignty of Mars and its colonies. We do not need the text of a fictional document to verify the source. The authority of the Inquisition does not violate Martian sovereignty. The Inquisition operate by the direct authority of the Master of Mankind, who for Mars is titled Omnissiah. No one should be surprised if the Mechanicum recognizes the authority of direct agents of the Omnissiah.

If you can accept the "fact" of "Terra and its colonies" and the "fact" of "Mars and its colonies," then it becomes very easy to see why the Ecclesiarchy is different. The Ecclesiarchy is "______ and its colonies." That blank cannot be filled in. The Ecclesiarchy was founded on Terra long after the founding of the Imperium and certainly a very long time after Mars and Terra had colonized the galaxy. The Ecclesiarchy is the state church of Terra. It is not the state church of Mars.

 Lynata wrote:
But what had the Ecclesiarchy to do with saving the Mechanicus?

See the excerpt from the other thread above. The Imperium cannot exist without the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicum cannot exist without the Imperium; therefore the Ecclesiarchy is necessary for the existence of the Mechanicum

Thanks for the link. I love the conclusion too, it's concise and logical.

Manchu wrote:Most people think of the Imperium as Terra and everything it controls because the Golden Throne is on Terra. But the Imperium is actually Mars and Terra unified forever.

Well, Terra is the capital of the Imperium of Man. This is pointed out in the material again and again. The Imperium was born out of the union of Mars and Terra, but in my opinion, you seem stuck in the Pre-Heresy past in that you still believe that it's an alliance rather than a single entity.

Manchu wrote:Immaterial. The source says the treaty guaranteed the sovereignty of Mars and its colonies. We do not need the text of a fictional document to verify the source. The authority of the Inquisition does not violate Martian sovereignty. The Inquisition operate by the direct authority of the Master of Mankind, who for Mars is titled Omnissiah. No one should be surprised if the Mechanicum recognizes the authority of direct agents of the Omnissiah.

You do of course realise that the entire Imperium operates on the authority of the Master of Mankind, the Omnissiah? Including the Adeptus Terra. And especially the High Lords as his direct representatives.

And you are contradicting yourself. The source indeed says that the Emperor would respect the sovereignty of Mars and its Forge Worlds. As per the definition of absolute sovereignty, this would have included not having to follow the orders of even the Emperor himself. The alternative is that it was not absolute but rather limited sovereignty. Conditional independence. I could actually agree on the term "satellite state(s)" as it does not sound as independent as "empire".

Or you assume that the Emperor guaranteed sovereignty from the Adeptus Terra. But that is something that the source does not say. Welcome to the realm of speculation.

Manchu wrote:If you can accept the "fact" of "Terra and its colonies" and the "fact" of "Mars and its colonies," then it becomes very easy to see why the Ecclesiarchy is different. The Ecclesiarchy is "______ and its colonies." That blank cannot be filled in.

Now you're operating on the basis of a fallacy. Terra is the capital of the Imperium of Man, not the Adeptus Terra. Despite the moniker, and despite it being based there. It is the seat of the Emperor and of the Imperial Senate. The Adeptus Terra does not have a capital, because it is not an "empire". It is a bureaucratic apparatus which serves as an administration for the bulk of Imperial worlds. And just like the Adeptus Terra does not need a capital, neither does the Ecclesiarchy.
By your logic, would the Adeptus Ministorum have been an "empire" during the time it was headquartered on Ophelia VII? That's not how it works. The Adeptus Terra works on behalf of the High Lords, not as some sort of independent realm. We see this clearly by looking at who has the authority to determine the governor of an Imperial World. It is the High Lords, even though "day-to-day" administration is left to the Administratum.

"The Adeptus Terra is a huge and multi-faceted organisation. It is divided and subdivided into countless subordinate organisations, millions of offices each with awesome powers. Indeed, the Adeptus Terra is so vast that no one can say with certainty how many divisions work under its banner, or what their purpose may be. Ten thousand years of endeavour have built an edifice which reaches into the heart of human society. Information is gathered, facts are accumulated, taxes are levied. Like an ancient and ponderous clock, the wheels of bureaucracy grind slowly forward, carried by their own momentum, without thought or consideration. Only a very few of the most important of these vast organisations are described here - there are many more and it is doubtful if anyone knows the full extent of the power of the Priesthood of Earth."
- C:CI

Organisation. Bureaucracy. Not empire.

But if you give me some time to get back home and check my books for something more current, I think there might have even been something in the 6E rulebook...

And as I said, feel free to throw in a quote about there being a "Terran Empire" or "Martian Empire" anytime. It is quite possible to convince me if you have proof - just like I was successfully convinced of Mars already having colonised several planets before the Great Crusade. I just need a source, for your argumentation so far does not stand up to my understanding of how the Imperium operates, based on the things I've read, some of whom I have quoted here.

Manchu wrote:The Ecclesiarchy is the state church of Terra. It is not the state church of Mars.

"Early in the 32nd millennium, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor was recognised as the official religion of the Imperium, and was given the title of Adeptus Ministorum."
- C:SoB

Like I said, the Mechanicus has been granted exemption from this decree, just like Marine fiefdoms are. That does not affect the Ecclesiarchy's role for the rest of the Imperium. Even though there isn't much else other than worlds administrated by the Adeptus Terra, the difference between the Imperial Creed being the state religion of Terra or of the Imperium is important. Because there is no "Terran empire". There is only the Imperium of Man. The unity, as you said. Unity as in = more than an alliance. A new empire born out of the merger. A single entity that, as part of the treaty, grants special treatment to a select few member worlds, but a single entity nonetheless.

Manchu wrote:See the excerpt from the other thread above. The Imperium cannot exist without the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicum cannot exist without the Imperium; therefore the Ecclesiarchy is necessary for the existence of the Mechanicum

Ah, I thought it was something specific about the Schism.
Yes, the Ecclesiarchy's importance should be obvious just by looking at its meaning for the billions upon billions of Imperial citizens, and how very much the Forge Worlds depend on trade. Though I'm sure there still is a number of Tech-Priests who would disagree and prefer supplanting the Imperial Creed with their own cult, thinking it'd just work out. It actually might, given enough time, but the interim period and the chaos of religious infighting would surely cripple the Imperium...

It's ironic how the entire Imperium seems to be one big love-hate-relationships, with the High Lords at the top taking it to a personal level.

I am not interested in re-litigating the issue as you have offered no new evidence of or arguments for your position. My previous arguments and the evidence that I posted, which you can re-read or not at your leisure, suffices to address your points. What remains is the possibility of a misunderstanding but the tangents you are taking makes me fear that clarity will be impossible. Perhaps re-focus on the notion of the colonial empires that are joined in the Imperium? That's the most progress that we've yet had.

In the hope of making some further progress, I will answer again one of your points here: you say I contradict myself by claiming that Mars is sovereign and yet subject to the Emperor. I have already explained why this is no contradiction. Mars recognizes the Emperor as the Omnissiah. That is the source of his authority over the Adpetus Mechanicus, not his Emperorship of Terra. As both the Emperor of Terra and the Omnissiah, the Emperor therefore unites in his own person all humanity and thus is the Master of Mankind. Put it another way, he rules, as the Master of Mankind, over the Imperium, which is itself the unity of all humanity.

But the Adpetus Mechanicus is not merely a subdivision of the Imperium -- a kind of office under some other office. Think of it like a marriage. The husband and wife make up the marriage. So, too, do Mars and Terra -- the Omissiah and the Emperor of Terra -- make up the Imperium. The Emperor is not merely the "boss" of the Imperium; he is in his very person the Imperium itself.

Wait sec Manchu, the Mechanicum may need the Imperium, but the Imperium, and the Ecclesiarchy also need the Mechanicum to survive. Let us not be so bold to throw out the idea that the Imperium is a balancing act between agencies; not twin empires vying for absolute control.

Let me explain by answering your question, that blank you are looking for is Ophellia VII, or Terra (or even both) depending on which broken or outdated source we're using. In either case, the Ecclesiarchy itself has shrine worlds, maintained by the SoB, and is also embedded into forge worlds and other worlds that cannot be considered a forge or shrine worlds. The Ecclesiarchy is as much a religious rival to the Mechanicus Cult as the secular and monstrous Administratum that creates the great balancing act between the two.

You are correct in saying that they are instrumental in the survival of the Imperium, and even a marriage of sorts exists between them, but there is a line neither one is willing to cross. Neither one openly acknowledges the existence of the other god, because to do so would discredit their own god. It is a tenuous pact of silence between the two that epitomizes the struggle of the "gothic" structure you described. So long as one survives, it threatens the existence of the other, but without either cult - the Imperium will fall.

To the OP:

So, my take on all this is that Mars is allowed to keep its sovereign powers within the Imperium, granting it authority over many others, because it is an ancient and honored cult that the Ecclesariachy may fear, but is terrified of live without it.

Therefore, the Imperium is actually closer to western republic than we think. There exists agencies of governance, each with a system of checks and balances over one another that prevents them from engaging in open conflict that would determine who is correct. Your planet can certainly have any of the elements of the three (four if we include the Inquisition) major powers of the Imperium, in any amount or combination, and still be considered part of the Imperium.

Manchu: I don't see my points addressed (at least not the ones I raised here), and I don't see the evidence I've asked for. But I guess we'll get no further on that front ... at least we can agree on this.

As for the Emperor, you can't just go and cancel out his "Emperorship" when talking about him as the Omnissiah. As a person, he unifies several titles in unison. Acknowledging him as Omnissiah means acknowledging him as a leader, and this means acknowledging the rules and decrees he puts in place as Emperor as well. Which in turn includes the Imperial hierarchy and the High Lords.
Just like you already admitted it would include the Inquisition. You can't just go and say "yes well he acted as the Omnissiah when he did that" and then go on and say "no, he acted as Emperor when he did this" when it's not convenient.

The Emperor is the Master of Mankind and the AdMech acknowledges him in this capacity. I can even find you a quote using these exact terms in this context. And so they accept the Emperor's authority, and that of his appointed representatives, as decreed in the treaty we know so little about.

What they won't have to acknowledge is the authority of the Adeptus Terra, because that's just an oversized federal bureau and Emps said "it's cool guys, you don't have to pay taxes".

DemetriDominov wrote:Wait sec Manchu, the Mechanicum may need the Imperium, but the Imperium, and the Ecclesiarchy also need the Mechanicum to survive.

No worries. I think we all know this. I know Manchu does.

@Lynata,

A person may have many titles but s/he cannot interchange them. For example, you may have the title of mom and the title of manager. But you have no authority in the workplace as "mom" and none at home as "manager." This does not mean you lack authority in either place.

 Lynata wrote:
The Emperor is the Master of Mankind and the AdMech acknowledges him in this capacity. I can even find you a quote using these exact terms in this context.

We are not in disagreement or, perhaps more important, I am not disagreeing with the published source you are thinking of:

 Manchu wrote:
As both the Emperor of Terra and the Omnissiah, the Emperor therefore unites in his own person all humanity and thus is the Master of Mankind. Put it another way, he rules, as the Master of Mankind, over the Imperium, which is itself the unity of all humanity.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
Let us not be so bold to throw out the idea that the Imperium is a balancing act between agencies; not twin empires vying for absolute control.

... um ...

 Manchu wrote:
It is fascinating that such a huge, powerful institution like the Imperium is so fragile -- it relies entirely on the delicate balancing of unity and independence, authority and sovereignty -- and so its structure must be "gothic."

 Manchu wrote:
It is not a strict top-down system. Rather, it is a tightly knit alliance of autocephalous agencies that constantly seek to dominate one another so as to maintain their autonomy. What binds them so closely together despite their jurisdictional phobias is necessity.

So, I think your concern is misplaced.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
Let me explain by answering your question, that blank you are looking for is Ophellia VII, or Terra (or even both)

No, the answer is that -- unlike Mars and Terra -- the Ecclesiarchy is not "now" nor has it ever been a colonial empire.

Yet the Omnissiah is a religious leader, that means that to his followers, he has authority everywhere and in any capacity.

The mom/manager comparison is apples and oranges to that.
Exchange "mom" with "goddess", and you can bet that this authority will take hold in the office as well.

Manchu wrote:No, the answer is that -- unlike Mars and Terra -- the Ecclesiarchy is not "now" nor has it ever been a colonial empire.

To be fair, the Adeptus Terra has never been a colonial empire either. It's just an office operating as part of the wider Imperium. At least I'm fairly sure that the Emperor already used this term even before bringing Mars into the fold.

I am talking about the Terran empire not the Adpetus Terra.

 Lynata wrote:
Yet the Omnissiah is a religious leader, that means that to his followers, he has authority everywhere and in any capacity.

First, I don't think you can back that up with fluff. What exactly the Omnissiah is ... well, it's complicated. The way Mars accepted the Emperor as Omnissiah back when the Imperium was formed is easier: they saw him as the supreme technologist, the man who would lead them back to their technological knowledge. That was in fact what he was. Now, as an avatar of the Machine God ... we really don't know enough about Martian religion to comment further. Second, what do you mean by "authority everywhere and in any capacity"? It sounds to me like this is an obvious error. The Tech Priests would certainly agree that the Omnissiah is the rightful master of the Adeptus Mechanicus no matter where it is. But would they say the Omnissiah has authority over the Ecclesiarchy? I think not, or at least not in the bueraucratic sense. Rather, it seems to me, that they would say the "authority" of the Omnissiah precludes the "truth" that the Ecclesiarchy purports to teach. Unforunately, I can foresee that this is just another unhelpful tangent.