what is up with the hit ratio between different ws...

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**ZebioLizard2**

Death Cult Assassins are WS5. Officio Assassinorium assassins are WS8.

You mean the groups that use Drugs, Full Body Genetic Alterations along with Clone Vat Breeding with a full Eugenics system, Cybernetics and high expensive alterations would be far grander then a standard human?

Which is not a normal human equivalent. Which is WS3/4. When you add more to that it can rise higher.

**Makutsu**

Kaldor wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
why can it only gain a 3+ on hit.

Because that is the highest probability it is ever possible for anything to attain, ever. Because fights are fluid things, and no one is going to just stand there and get hit. People facing a bloodthirster will cower and flee, and the environment will play it's part, and sometimes people will just get lucky.

The best situation possible is the potential to land two thirds of your blows. Your WS just ranks the opponents against whom you will enjoy that situation.

The top of humankind is WS3/4, because that's the best humans will hope for. Combined with everything else? Not so much.

Death Cult Assassins are WS5. Officio Assassinorium assassins are WS8.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makutsu wrote:
a duel and a combat are really similar things

They are very, very different.

"Because that is the highest probability it is ever possible for anything to attain, ever. " <-- where the heck did this statement come from?
"Because fights are fluid things, and no one is going to just stand there and get hit." <-- That's why it's not 100% hit
"The best situation possible is the potential to land two thirds of your blows. Your WS just ranks the opponents against whom you will enjoy that situation." <-- Another random statement with no justification
"People facing a bloodthirster will cower and flee, and the environment will play it's part, and sometimes people will just get lucky. " <-- if you are running how do you fight back??

"They are very, very different" <-- How are they different?? You don't stand still during a duel either, and a duel is just a fluid combat as well.

^look at this, seriously if you are unskilled do you think you have ANY chance of hitting?

You have never answered this question at all. How does a WS1 hit a WS10 1/3 of the time? Whilst the most skilled people in the world only hit 2/3???

**Peregrine**

Makutsu wrote:
^look at this, seriously if you are unskilled do you think you have ANY chance of hitting?

Yes, because while those idiots are doing their spinny thing I'll just stab them in the back with my bayonet. War is not a 1v1 duel with formal rules.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makutsu wrote:
You have never answered this question at all. How does a WS1 hit a WS10 1/3 of the time? Whilst the most skilled people in the world only hit 2/3???

Because a D6 system requires a certain degree of abstraction, and because melee combat in 40k is supposed to present a risk to both sides.

**Makutsu**

Peregrine wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
^look at this, seriously if you are unskilled do you think you have ANY chance of hitting?

Yes, because while those idiots are doing their spinny thing I'll just stab them in the back with my bayonet. War is not a 1v1 duel with formal rules.

Yeah, and then you get an axe to the head from some other guy in the squad.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makutsu wrote:
You have never answered this question at all. How does a WS1 hit a WS10 1/3 of the time? Whilst the most skilled people in the world only hit 2/3???

Because a D6 system requires a certain degree of abstraction, and because melee combat in 40k is supposed to present a risk to both sides.

**Somedude593**

Makutsu wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
^look at this, seriously if you are unskilled do you think you have ANY chance of hitting?

Yes, because while those idiots are doing their spinny thing I'll just stab them in the back with my bayonet. War is not a 1v1 duel with formal rules.

Yeah, and then you get an axe to the head from some other guy in the squad.

Now you get it! Its a combat... a hundred things are happening around you and not even a god of combat could counter all of them... they may be aware of what's happening but laws of statistical probability mean eventually you will get hit and eventually even against the weakest of opponents you will die

**-Loki-**

Makutsu wrote:
Peregrine wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
^look at this, seriously if you are unskilled do you think you have ANY chance of hitting?

Yes, because while those idiots are doing their spinny thing I'll just stab them in the back with my bayonet. War is not a 1v1 duel with formal rules.

Yeah, and then you get an axe to the head from some other guy in the squad.

Exactly. You're finally understanding mass combats.

In a 1v1 situation, the 5+ to hit simply represents getting lucky, and the 3+ simply represents getting unlocky.

Makutsu wrote:
I am not saying that they shouldn't, I am saying why isn't it a 6+ and a 2+ for WS1 vs WS10, which would make more sense.

As above. Luck and other battlefield happenings. What if a missile hits the ground near Lelith which makes her stumble, opening up an opportunity for her opponent?

Abstraction is the key here. This isn't a simulation of a futuristic war.

**Makutsu**

I get that it's like that from a long time ago, thats why you wouldn't be wandering off to go fight someone else when there's others to fight you already. I am assuming it's a 10 v 10 situation where you probably want to focus on 1 guy more and leave the rest to others.

And with a high WS means that you are reaction time is lower inorder to parry or block your enemies blow.

And once again, I am NOT saying that you would never get hit, but in a 1 v 1 situation, no way.
In combat? assuming both sides are fair? the side with higher WS gets hit less. and in a situation where you are all elites? with WS10 vs WS1? you're not going hit much at all

All of you are assuming it's like 10 vs 1, no wonder he's gonna get hit.

**Peregrine**

Makutsu wrote:
I am not saying that they shouldn't, I am saying why isn't it a 6+ and a 2+ for WS1 vs WS10, which would make more sense.

Because 6+ vs. 2+ is too one-sided, especially on top of the fact that the WS 10 model will have better weapons and armor. Limiting it to usually just 4+/3+ keeps combat dangerous for both sides and prevents "my character kills your whole squad" situations.

**SoloFalcon1138**

wow... the WS chart has worksd for 26 years. just now its become a problem?

**-Loki-**

Makutsu wrote:
I get that it's like that from a long time ago, thats why you wouldn't be wandering off to go fight someone else when there's others to fight you already. I am assuming it's a 10 v 10 situation where you probably want to focus on 1 guy more and leave the rest to others.

Well, you wouldn't. You'd be keeping an eye on the general situation as well as fighting the guy you're fighting. Because as soon as someone knows you aren't watching them, you'll take a backhanded bayonet to the skull.

**Makutsu**

I am not saying if it works or not in terms of game balance, I am just saying why a high WS10 hits a WS1 so little in comparison to a WS1 hitting a WS10.

Consider the Bloodthirster,
he's fast, strong, and good with the weapon, how would he be hitting so little?
He would tear through stuff so quickly that you wouldn't even want to fight him.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
I get that it's like that from a long time ago, thats why you wouldn't be wandering off to go fight someone else when there's others to fight you already. I am assuming it's a 10 v 10 situation where you probably want to focus on 1 guy more and leave the rest to others.

Well, you wouldn't. You'd be keeping an eye on the general situation as well as fighting the guy you're fighting. Because as soon as someone knows you aren't watching them, you'll take a backhanded bayonet to the skull.

So hence, when you're doing that spinning thing you'd be watching if others would hit you as well, both sides have equal distraction,
Hence I agree that a small difference WS such as 3-5 difference changing hits from 3+ to 5+ is reasonable, but against 1 to 10 is still only 3+ and 5+? that's kinda unreasonable,

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I looked up the low WS models.

How the hell does a sniper drone hit Lelith on a 3+???
How does a mystic spore hit Lelith on a 3+?
How does the jakero weapon smith hit on a 3+?

WS3 vs WS10 is still marginally acceptable, but those?

**-Loki-**

Makutsu wrote:
How the hell does a sniper drone hit Lelith on a 3+???

Brute force and lack of care for self preservation. It's a hovering, heavy disk of solid steel. Going into 'ramming speed' mode and swooping around her until it makes contact.

Makutsu wrote:
How does a mystic spore hit Lelith on a 3+?

Tentacles. Mycetic spores are covered in 'ripper tentacles'. While these give it a ranged attack, it's not unreasonable to assume they'd be a mighty good nuisance in combat as well.

Makutsu wrote:
How does the jakero weapon smith hit on a 3+?

When she falls to her knees laughing at it, it points a finger at her and blasts her in the face with a ring mounted Plasma Blastgun (Jokaero are the definition of ridiculous in a hilariously awesome way).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makutsu wrote:
I am not saying if it works or not in terms of game balance

Why not? The whole abstracion thing is purely done for game balance. The same reason a rifle, going by the ranges represented on the tabletop, would have an effective range of about 40' before losing all lethality.

It's a game. Game balance matters more than realism.

**Kaldor**

Makutsu wrote:
why isn't it a 6+ and a 2+ for WS1 vs WS10, which would make more sense.

Because that wouldn't make sense.

**Makutsu**

-Loki- wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
How the hell does a sniper drone hit Lelith on a 3+???

Brute force and lack of care for self preservation. It's a hovering, heavy disk of solid steel. Going into 'ramming speed' mode and swooping around her until it makes contact.

Makutsu wrote:
How does a mystic spore hit Lelith on a 3+?

Tentacles. Mycetic spores are covered in 'ripper tentacles'. While these give it a ranged attack, it's not unreasonable to assume they'd be a mighty good nuisance in combat as well.

Makutsu wrote:
How does the jakero weapon smith hit on a 3+?

When she falls to her knees laughing at it, it points a finger at her and blasts her in the face with a ring mounted Plasma Blastgun (Jokaero are the definition of ridiculous in a hilariously awesome way).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makutsu wrote:
I am not saying if it works or not in terms of game balance

Why not? The whole abstracion thing is purely done for game balance. The same reason a rifle, going by the ranges represented on the tabletop, would have an effective range of about 40' before losing all lethality.

It's a game. Game balance matters more than realism.

Fine, but that's not really a fair explanation when talking about somebody who can kick a flying grenade out of the air thrown by SMs and say that she can't hit a flying drone better.
Tentacles could go really wrong I guess if you know what I mean

Jokearo... ugh...

Still, WS2 and WS1 don't exist that much I still disagree that they should be a difference of only 3+ and 5+.

So apparently you guys are all wrong about the combat thing fluff wise at least.
According to the fluff in the wyches section it says that, when they are out numbered they will roll, backflip, and pirouette out of harm's way stabbing through visors and neck-joints slicking open a thorat here and piercing a heart there.
So they can dance around while they are outnumbered and still murder so many, and they only have a WS4 think what Lelith should be able to do with a WS9

**ZebioLizard2**

Kaldor wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
why isn't it a 6+ and a 2+ for WS1 vs WS10, which would make more sense.

Because that wouldn't make sense.

It would, it would represent a skilled fighters ability to both deflect, parry, and push the advantage, as well as the skill one could have in identifying combat situations in order to properly fight off multiple, simultaneous enemies at once.

**Makutsu**

Kaldor wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
why isn't it a 6+ and a 2+ for WS1 vs WS10, which would make more sense.

Because that wouldn't make sense.

I have clearly stated examples, and yet you just say no it doesn't.

**-Loki-**

Makutsu wrote:
According to the fluff in the wyches section it says that, when they are out numbered they will roll, backflip, and pirouette out of harm's way stabbing through visors and neck-joints slicking open a thorat here and piercing a heart there.
So they can dance around while they are outnumbered and still murder so many, and they only have a WS4 think what Lelith should be able to do with a WS9

Fine. So you'd be happy with Boltguns all causing Instant Death? Because if, in this example, Lelith, an Eldar of obvious slight build was actually hit by a Boltgun, getting past her armour with it's AP, it's mass reactive warhead would instantly pulp her organs. She'd be a leaky sack of burger meat from one .75 caliber bolt.

Of course, that's not balanced. Wounds are an abstraction on the ability of a hero to just keep fighting through whatever makes sense for that hero.

Just like the To Hit table is an abstraction taking into account more than simply warrior skill.

**Makutsu**

-Loki- wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
According to the fluff in the wyches section it says that, when they are out numbered they will roll, backflip, and pirouette out of harm's way stabbing through visors and neck-joints slicking open a thorat here and piercing a heart there.
So they can dance around while they are outnumbered and still murder so many, and they only have a WS4 think what Lelith should be able to do with a WS9

Fine. So you'd be happy with Boltguns all causing Instant Death? Because if, in this example, Lelith, an Eldar of obvious slight build was actually hit by a Boltgun, getting past her armour with it's AP, it's mass reactive warhead would instantly pulp her organs. She'd be a leaky sack of burger meat from one .75 caliber bolt.

Of course, that's not balanced. Wounds are an abstraction on the ability of a hero to just keep fighting through whatever makes sense for that hero.

Just like the To Hit table is an abstraction taking into account more than simply warrior skill.

If they made WS an actual difference then I really wouldn't mind if she was T2, she's T3 right now anyways without any armor, not like it's any difference. A wych squad getting shot at by bolters basically just dies.

essentially, shooting should be deadly without armor like these guys, but make them more powerful in CC, I'd actually wish for that.

**-Loki-**

Makutsu wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
According to the fluff in the wyches section it says that, when they are out numbered they will roll, backflip, and pirouette out of harm's way stabbing through visors and neck-joints slicking open a thorat here and piercing a heart there.
So they can dance around while they are outnumbered and still murder so many, and they only have a WS4 think what Lelith should be able to do with a WS9

Fine. So you'd be happy with Boltguns all causing Instant Death? Because if, in this example, Lelith, an Eldar of obvious slight build was actually hit by a Boltgun, getting past her armour with it's AP, it's mass reactive warhead would instantly pulp her organs. She'd be a leaky sack of burger meat from one .75 caliber bolt.

Of course, that's not balanced. Wounds are an abstraction on the ability of a hero to just keep fighting through whatever makes sense for that hero.

Just like the To Hit table is an abstraction taking into account more than simply warrior skill.

If they made WS an actual difference then I really wouldn't mind if she was T2, she's T3 right now anyways without any armor, not like it's any difference. A wych squad getting shot at by bolters basically just dies.

essentially, shooting should be deadly without armor like these guys, but make them more powerful in CC, I'd actually wish for that.

It already is deadly to Wyches, but characters get a bit of extra leeway from wounds.

Another example is Chainswords. They're simply close combat weapons. A single hit from a chainsword would be incapacitatingly painful, if not outright lethal. A blow to the side would not only sever an arm but bury itself inside the torso of the victim.

Would you be okay with Chainswords causing instant death?

Again, abstraction. No, considering pure warrior skill, Lelith hitting a stationary Mycetic Spore on a 3+ doesn't make sense. Until you factor in everything else the abstraction is meant to represent - that spore mine likely has a writhing mass of ripper tentacles hampering her performance, there's spores in the air choking her (a common part of a Tyranid invasion), smoke in the air blinding her, there's explosions all around her throwing debris and meat everywhere, etc. Plenty can happen on a chaotic battlefield which would throw the galaxies best warriors off their game enough to show they're not fighting at their best.

**Makutsu**

-Loki- wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
According to the fluff in the wyches section it says that, when they are out numbered they will roll, backflip, and pirouette out of harm's way stabbing through visors and neck-joints slicking open a thorat here and piercing a heart there.
So they can dance around while they are outnumbered and still murder so many, and they only have a WS4 think what Lelith should be able to do with a WS9

Fine. So you'd be happy with Boltguns all causing Instant Death? Because if, in this example, Lelith, an Eldar of obvious slight build was actually hit by a Boltgun, getting past her armour with it's AP, it's mass reactive warhead would instantly pulp her organs. She'd be a leaky sack of burger meat from one .75 caliber bolt.

Of course, that's not balanced. Wounds are an abstraction on the ability of a hero to just keep fighting through whatever makes sense for that hero.

Just like the To Hit table is an abstraction taking into account more than simply warrior skill.

If they made WS an actual difference then I really wouldn't mind if she was T2, she's T3 right now anyways without any armor, not like it's any difference. A wych squad getting shot at by bolters basically just dies.

essentially, shooting should be deadly without armor like these guys, but make them more powerful in CC, I'd actually wish for that.

It already is deadly to Wyches, but characters get a bit of extra leeway from wounds.

Another example is Chainswords. They're simply close combat weapons. A single hit from a chainsword would be incapacitatingly painful, if not outright lethal. A blow to the side would not only sever an arm but bury itself inside the torso of the victim.

Would you be okay with Chainswords causing instant death?

Again, abstraction. No, considering pure warrior skill, Lelith hitting a stationary Mycetic Spore on a 3+ doesn't make sense. Until you factor in everything else the abstraction is meant to represent - that spore mine likely has a writhing mass of ripper tentacles hampering her performance, there's spores in the air choking her (a common part of a Tyranid invasion), smoke in the air blinding her, there's explosions all around her throwing debris and meat everywhere, etc. Plenty can happen on a chaotic battlefield which would throw the galaxies best warriors off their game enough to show they're not fighting at their best.

That's the thing they should never ever hit in the first place. She has never been scathed in any battles that she has been in and she has replaced all of her blood with some crazy adrenaline thingy, and she bathes in some serum that enhances her senses even further, I agree that in a game she should still be hurt but I still think a closer representation of high WS vs low WS should have a larger margin.

**-Loki-**

Makutsu wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
-Loki- wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
According to the fluff in the wyches section it says that, when they are out numbered they will roll, backflip, and pirouette out of harm's way stabbing through visors and neck-joints slicking open a thorat here and piercing a heart there.
So they can dance around while they are outnumbered and still murder so many, and they only have a WS4 think what Lelith should be able to do with a WS9

Fine. So you'd be happy with Boltguns all causing Instant Death? Because if, in this example, Lelith, an Eldar of obvious slight build was actually hit by a Boltgun, getting past her armour with it's AP, it's mass reactive warhead would instantly pulp her organs. She'd be a leaky sack of burger meat from one .75 caliber bolt.

Of course, that's not balanced. Wounds are an abstraction on the ability of a hero to just keep fighting through whatever makes sense for that hero.

Just like the To Hit table is an abstraction taking into account more than simply warrior skill.

If they made WS an actual difference then I really wouldn't mind if she was T2, she's T3 right now anyways without any armor, not like it's any difference. A wych squad getting shot at by bolters basically just dies.

essentially, shooting should be deadly without armor like these guys, but make them more powerful in CC, I'd actually wish for that.

It already is deadly to Wyches, but characters get a bit of extra leeway from wounds.

Another example is Chainswords. They're simply close combat weapons. A single hit from a chainsword would be incapacitatingly painful, if not outright lethal. A blow to the side would not only sever an arm but bury itself inside the torso of the victim.

Would you be okay with Chainswords causing instant death?

Again, abstraction. No, considering pure warrior skill, Lelith hitting a stationary Mycetic Spore on a 3+ doesn't make sense. Until you factor in everything else the abstraction is meant to represent - that spore mine likely has a writhing mass of ripper tentacles hampering her performance, there's spores in the air choking her (a common part of a Tyranid invasion), smoke in the air blinding her, there's explosions all around her throwing debris and meat everywhere, etc. Plenty can happen on a chaotic battlefield which would throw the galaxies best warriors off their game enough to show they're not fighting at their best.

That's the thing they should never ever hit in the first place. She has never been scathed in any battles that she has been in and she has replaced all of her blood with some crazy adrenaline thingy, and she bathes in some serum that enhances her senses even further, I agree that in a game she should still be hurt but I still think a closer representation of high WS vs low WS should have a larger margin.

Well... that's just not going to happen. The Hot Hit table is the To Hit table. If you think it needs changing, run the change by your local group. As it is now, this is what the designers thought was best to represent different skill levels of opponents while preventing it from being too one sided.

On Lelith, she doesn't actually need the boost. Her ability of gaining extra attacks equal to the difference of Weapon Skill, in addition to her high Ini and wargear, is perfectly fine for representing a warrior that will quite simply tear lesser opponents to shreds before they can hit. I've seen her tear through entire squads in a turn. She doesn't need beefing up in combat. Her combat abilities are perfectly fine showing her prowess over lesser skilled opponents without hamfisting an alteration to the To Hit table. Put simply, if you have her lose a combat, you rolled incredibly terribly (and no To Hit table modification will prevent this), or you charged something she simply isn't meant to be able to walk all over (like a Swarmlord).

**Makutsu**

Well, I am not saying that it is, a lot of our rants aren't going to change anything like price drops *looks at GW*

Yeah, I know Lelith has that skill but it should be a base skill for everyone with a high weapon skill or at least this function should somehow be part of the assault. Like this is a good representation of how a high WS vs WS character should be

Number of attacks raised is = more hits. Think about it a SM who is genetically modified and enhanced hits the same character the same amount as a Sniper Drone or mystic spore...kinda doesn't make much sense...

**-Loki-**

I'm sorry, but I don't know where else you want this discussion to go. People have given you plenty of reasons why it's like this. If you just keep asking why, you're just going to keep getting the same answers.

The To Hit table is the way it is. Leliths special rule for more attacks was their way to giving her a much greater chance to kill lesser skilled opponents without doing a dodgy alteration just for her to the To Hit table. That's... about as complete of an answer as there is. And it does it nicely - she can tear a single lesser skilled model to peices or tear through a whole squad of lesser skilled models. If she fights something truly as or more skilled than she is (the only models I can think of are the Swarmlord and Bloodthirster), she's hit a brick wall you shouldn't have thrown her at.

**Makutsu**

I'm still looking for a good justification between why it is a 5+ for WS1 vs WS10 AND WS4 and WS10, How do you convince yourself that a Sniper Drone hits as easily as a Space Marine would on a WS10 model?

I know rules are rules and that they are arbitrary, it's the same as why one person makes your squad able to hit everybody on their team, and without you can't.

Besides, it's somewhat of a fluff-rant or realistic-rant, just a discussion no harm done.

**Lobokai**

If Lelith isn't earning her points, don't take her. If she was better, then she'd be worth more... would you be willing to pay 25 pts more, 50 pts, 100 pts?

How much is hitting 17% more often worth? If she IS earning her points, then the stats are working fine.

Right now, if Lelith charges a squad of tactical marines (average unit, if there was one, ignoring challenges), she gets to swing 11 times, hitting 7 times, wounding twice, killing 2.

The remaining 8 swing 8 times. Hit 4 times, wound twice, with maybe 1 getting through. Next turn Lelith kills x2, remaining 6 hit 3 times maybe wounding her once. Again she kills 2, remaining 4 hit twice, wound once, and it is her turn to save (since I've been wounding her more than I should). Next turn she kills 2, remaining 2 hit once, and might wound once, but she should save again and then kill the last.

Same points, she walks away, they don't.... maybe she dies with 2 left. That's if she's running alone and only takes on fair fights. I'd recommend you do neither and let her dominate.

**tyrant of loserville**

Grey Templar wrote:
Because skill with melee weaponry has diminishing marginal returns unlike skill at ballistics.

You'd have to be really skilled in melee to avoid getting a blow landed on you, and even then in an actual battle situation its going to be nearly impossable to avoid all blows. Just easier to land your own, and then it only helps you to a certain point.

Thats why having a WS of higher than 5 really has little effect till you hit WS 9+

Say we have 3 people. One has a Blackbelt, one has a Purple Belt, and one has a Blue belt.

If the Black belt and Purple belt were to have a competition, the Black Belt would obviously be the superior Martial Artist and likely win.

Now if the Black belt and Purple belt were to both fight the Blue belt the Blue belt would lose. There probably wouldn't be much difference in how bad the Blue belt lost to either artist. You probably couldn't tell which fighter had the Black belt and who had the Purple belt if you saw a tape of the fight between them and the Blue belt(and no identification was avaliable)

Its kinda like that. Unless the difference is close or very extreme it won't effect the outcome of the fight.

So that kinda translates.

Man, I dont know what the feth you just said little kid, but youre special.

**Makutsu**

If Lelith isn't earning her points, don't take her. If she was better, then she'd be worth more... would you be willing to pay 25 pts more, 50 pts, 100 pts?

How much is hitting 17% more often worth? If she IS earning her points, then the stats are working fine.

Right now, if Lelith charges a squad of tactical marines (average unit, if there was one, ignoring challenges), she gets to swing 11 times, hitting 7 times, wounding twice, killing 2.

The remaining 8 swing 8 times. Hit 4 times, wound twice, with maybe 1 getting through. Next turn Lelith kills x2, remaining 6 hit 3 times maybe wounding her once. Again she kills 2, remaining 4 hit twice, wound once, and it is her turn to save (since I've been wounding her more than I should). Next turn she kills 2, remaining 2 hit once, and might wound once, but she should save again and then kill the last.

Same points, she walks away, they don't.... maybe she dies with 2 left. That's if she's running alone and only takes on fair fights. I'd recommend you do neither and let her dominate.

You forgot overwatch though, I assume they have boltguns?
So 20 shots hits on 6s wounds on 4s, so 3.333 * 0.5 = 1.667 Wounds.

So after first turn of combat she's dead.

**Peregrine**

Makutsu wrote:
I'm still looking for a good justification between why it is a 5+ for WS1 vs WS10 AND WS4 and WS10, How do you convince yourself that a Sniper Drone hits as easily as a Space Marine would on a WS10 model?

Because the D6 system does not allow subtle variations like that. Yes, in theory it should be a 5+ for the marine and a 5.2+ for the drone, but there's no way to represent that 0.2 in a D6 system and it just gets rounded to the same 5+.

**-Loki-**

Makutsu wrote:
I'm still looking for a good justification between why it is a 5+ for WS1 vs WS10 AND WS4 and WS10, How do you convince yourself that a Sniper Drone hits as easily as a Space Marine would on a WS10 model?

Think about how Chaos Daemon players feel with their WS10 Bloodthirsters or Tyranid players with their WS9 Swarmlords who DON'T have her awesome additional attack ability. Seriously, the Swarmlord is a Hive Tyrant (already an exceptionally deadly melee fighter) with the accumulated knowledge of billions of years worth of fighting, and he gets 5 attacks that hit a Grot on a 3+.

I don't mind - he's still completely beastly, but there's just some combats you don't want him in.

**Makutsu**

Yes they can they can adjust in attacks for that, that's what they did with Lelith and it works somewhat.

It could be like 10WS - 1WS / 3 + attacks would be your total attacks that are bonus. This obvously complicates stuff but allows high WS to actually be worth it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:
Makutsu wrote:
I'm still looking for a good justification between why it is a 5+ for WS1 vs WS10 AND WS4 and WS10, How do you convince yourself that a Sniper Drone hits as easily as a Space Marine would on a WS10 model?

Think about how Chaos Daemon players feel with their WS10 Bloodthirsters or Tyranid players with their WS9 Swarmlords who DON'T have her awesome additional attack ability. Seriously, the Swarmlord is a Hive Tyrant (already an exceptionally deadly melee fighter) with the accumulated knowledge of billions of years worth of fighting, and he gets 5 attacks that hit a Grot on a 3+.

I don't mind - he's still completely beastly, but there's just some combats you don't want him in.

That's why I said it isn't fair for high WS users since there's not as much benefits yet you are paying the same amount of points for maybe a better S HQ than a WS HQ