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Hellstorm wrote:...did I reform? The answer is yes because I declared it, took the penalties for it (e.g. no shooting, no other moving), but choose not to get any bonuses. .

No. Ridiculous. If you don't ACTUALLY reform then you did NOT reform. In order to reform, you must reform. The definition of the word "reform" states this implicitly. You have already "formed" the unit once (during deployment). You would like to RE-form that unit into a different formation (shape). In order to do that, you must change it's position or change it's shape. You can't re-form an object by NOT re-forming it.

If I "declare" that my unit is moving forward and then DON'T move it at all, it hasn't moved. Any penalties for movement that you take (such as -1 for shooting) are self imposed penalties that you're not required to take.

Mike der Ritter wrote:But your argument is that you can cast a spell (=reform) by not casting a spell (=not reforming). Can you cast a spell by decree? No. If reform & magic work the same, can you reform by decree? No. Same premises, same result.

Agreed 100%. You can't cast a spell by NOT casting a spell. If you voluntarily DON'T use 4 power dice, that's a self imposed penalty that the rules don't require.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

You may rearrange your unit, you may change its facing (as long as you are contacted in the flank or rear), and your unit's center point may move. All of those are options; they are not mandatory or requirements. Nowhere does it say that you must do one of those.

Yes, all of these are options. Not chosing one of the allowed options but one that is not described to get the same result is not an option. Pick one if you want to reform. If you want to move from A to B, you will have to do that (only one way to do it). If you want to shoot, you will have to pick up the dice (only one option, too). If you want to reform, do so (pick one of three).

So why then can't I just choose option 3? All I want to do is move the center to the right and you just said that I could pick any one. I choose that one. Now my one model has moved its unit center and you agree that is a reform because one of those options were chosen. You agree with me. Thank you.

 Hellstorm wrote:

So why then can't I just choose option 3? All I want to do is move the center to the right and you just said that I could pick any one. I choose that one. Now my one model has moved its unit center and you agree that is a reform because one of those options were chosen. You agree with me. Thank you.

Lol, don't be asinine.

Really though, I think Mike was a little wrong. There aren't three options; there are two.

1) Rearrange unit
2) Change unit's facing

When performing a combat reform, the center-point restriction is removed, which means the statement, "You may move the center point," is not an option, but a qualifier.

You can't choose to "do" the qualifier as an action, as the allowance to remove a previous restriction from the actions that you can choose from is clearly not an action in the way that options 1 and 2, above, are actions.

As a unit consisting of a single model (in combat) cannot "rearrange", nor can it change it's facing to face away from the enemy unit, I would have to say that a single model can't "slide" in the way that a unit full of RnF can slide (which is really just a rearranging of models from one side of the unit to another).

Hellstorm - it does not say you can move the centre point, just that the centre point is allowed to move as a consequence of the reform - and you reform by moving models around each other. If you only have one model you cannot swap models.

Seconded (both the last two posts). Sorry for being imprecise, Hellstorm; no, I do not agree with you.

The three options I had in mind are increasing ranks, decreasing ranks, change of facing, although this is not categorized in such a fashion in the rules. One could collapse the first two into one, or we could add a combination of these as a fourth. It doesn't really matter. Steam Tanks, HPA's and lone characters are stuck where they hit until they break, die or win.

So let me get this straight. If a lone character is attacked in the front, he has to stay but if he is charged in the flank, he is allowed to move because a change of facing is a reform therefore allowing him to move?

Seems that way, by RAW. He would still have to abide by the other restrictions, though, concerning reducing the number of models in base contact, etc.

Both of you have made good points but I still can't find any justification in the rulebook. If I could just get a page number and quote for this, please. One where it says that single models may not combat reform unless contacted in the flank. That is the last thing you need to do then I wont debate it any further. But I have looked and I can't find anything like this. I have found permission to do it but not restrictions saying I can't.

 Hellstorm wrote:

If I could just get a page number and quote for this, please. One where it says that single models may not combat reform unless contacted in the flank.

As I said, it's - generally - a permissive system. There are rarely such negative clauses (there are, *sometimes*, but usually just to reinforce a point).

 Hellstorm wrote:
So let me get this straight. If a lone character is attacked in the front, he has to stay but if he is charged in the flank, he is allowed to move because a change of facing is a reform therefore allowing him to move?

He can change his facing in both cases, not that it would be all that helpful when he's attacked to his front. He cannot however move willy-nilly to any spot on the front afterwards. A change of facing is not a move, ie. a change of position, it is only a move in the technical sense, ie. the model has moved even if it only pivots.

I don't think this problematic anyways. When said character (STank, HPA...) is charged, your opponent needs to maximize, so the former model will contact three others (perhaps two, perhaps four or five, depending on base sizes). He couldn't move to a position where he's facing less anyways, and if he tries to avoid a stronger character in that unit, he could be challenged, or followed with Make Way!.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Hellstorm wrote:

If I could just get a page number and quote for this, please. One where it says that single models may not combat reform unless contacted in the flank.... I have found permission to do it but not restrictions saying I can't.

As I said, it's - generally - a permissive system. There are rarely such negative clauses (there are, *sometimes*, but usually just to reinforce a point).

This is what I was going to say. In a permissive ruleset, you can't look for restrictions - you have to look for allowances. Where is it that you see permission to complete a combat reform under any circumstances other than the ones that we've just argued for? This is really where the page number needs quoting, in my opinion.

We've determined that a combat reform only takes place during a change of facing or a rearranging of models. If neither of these happens, a combat reform doesn't take place, which means the unit cannot "slide." It just so happens that a single model has no additional models to rearrange. As for changing facing, I'm not sure if you're allowed to change your facing if you're already facing the front (meaning, you turn AWAY from the enemy unit, such that they are now in contact with your flank or rear instead of the front). I would need my book to look it up, but my initial thought is that Mike is right - the book probably says that, during a combat reform, you can change your facing (and that's all), which means you can start facing any direction and can change your facing to face any direction.

p. 55 says I'm allowed to make a combat reform after a round of combat.
p.14 says I can arrange the unit into as many ranks as I wish into whatever direction I wish. (note that facing the same direction with the same composition is legal. It doesn't say anything like "this cannot be the same formation you started in" or any other thing like that.)
p.55 (FAQ) says that the unit center need not remain in the same location. (e.g. it can move side-to-side)

Now, I have stated my permission to do it. Find the restrictions saying that a single character may not reform.

 Tangent wrote:

 Hellstorm wrote:
So let me get this straight. If a lone character is attacked in the front, he has to stay but if he is charged in the flank, he is allowed to move because a change of facing is a reform therefore allowing him to move?

Seems that way, by RAW. He would still have to abide by the other restrictions, though, concerning reducing the number of models in base contact, etc.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 Hellstorm wrote:
So let me get this straight. If a lone character is attacked in the front, he has to stay but if he is charged in the flank, he is allowed to move because a change of facing is a reform therefore allowing him to move?

He can change his facing in both cases, not that it would be all that helpful when he's attacked to his front. He cannot however move willy-nilly to any spot on the front afterwards. A change of facing is not a move, ie. a change of position, it is only a move in the technical sense, ie. the model has moved even if it only pivots.

Now both of you are saying something different. Tangent says that a combat reform could be made and as such a slide would be legal, but Mike says you can reform but your unit's center can't move. afterwards. Where in the rules are you finding this?

 Hellstorm wrote:
p.14 says I can arrange the unit into as many ranks as I wish into whatever direction I wish. (note that facing the same direction with the same composition is legal. It doesn't say anything like "this cannot be the same formation you started in" or any other thing like that.)

We already covered this. Facing the same direction with the same composition is NOT a reform - in order to reform you must actually reform, which means you must at least either change the facing or change the composition. Facing the same direction with the same composition is "legal" in the sense that you're not REQUIRED to reform in combat, and can, instead, choose to stay in the same place without reforming. It's a permissive ruleset - it doesn't have to say anything like that because this restriction is implicit in the definition of the word "reform." The allowance to reform combined with the definition of the word "reform" means that you CAN change your facing or composition, in which case you are reforming. If you don't change your facing or composition, you aren't reforming. Just like you aren't moving if you don't move, and you aren't casting a spell if you don't cast a spell... etc...

I don't know how many different ways it can be stated. The restriction, "this cannot be the same formation you started in," absolutely IS within the rules for combat reforming, though this restriction is implicit. You cannot re-form something unless you change it from its initial form. You formed it once. You would like to RE-form it. This REQUIRES that it be changed from its initial position. If it is not changed from its initial position, it was NOT re-formed. Instead, it was formed once, and left in that position.

And so, you HAVEN'T shown any permission for a single model to reform. Instead, you've shown that in order to reform, a unit must rearrange or change facing. A single model cannot rearrange. Only if a single model can change facing can it reform. In this, Mike is probably right in that a unit can always change its facing regardless of where it is facing when it is charged. Meaning, a unit can probably start a combat facing to the front but then, using a combat reform, turn to face away (though why you'd want to is another question).

 Hellstorm wrote:
Now both of you are saying something different. Tangent says that a combat reform could be made and as such a slide would be legal, but Mike says you can reform but your unit's center can't move. afterwards. Where in the rules are you finding this?

I covered this in my previous post, also. Mike is probably right - I didn't (and don't) have my rulebook and so I couldn't check to see if you can use a combat reform to go from a FRONT facing to a SIDE or REAR facing. You probably can, though.

I would just like to point out that you are having a rules discussion without having a rule book. Just sayin'

 Tangent wrote:
We already covered this. Facing the same direction with the same composition is NOT a reform - in order to reform you must actually reform, which means you must at least either change the facing or change the composition.

You say this but you haven't proven it. Lets try another example, you obviously missed the point of the last one. As a vampire player, you should understand this one.

Say you have a necromancer, that is farther than 6" from any unit. At the end of the magic phase, he hasn't yet cast Vanhel's Danse Macabre. There is only one dice left on the pool and the opponent has none. He decides that he is going to cast it on himself because there is an injured Vampire Lord 10" away. He rolls the dice and gets a 6. He chooses not to move and he isn't in combat so he doesn't get into reroll. But the spell was successfully cast so he can use the side effect of healing the Vamp.

So lets recap. He successfully cast the spell, he doesn't get any effects by choice, but he gets the side effect. Now back to reforming. I meet the requirements to reform, I choose not to get the benefit (change facing or new formation) but I choose to get the side effect (moving the unit center). Everything I have stated has the word "can" in the rules so nothing is required.

 Tangent wrote:
Facing the same direction with the same composition is "legal" in the sense that you're not REQUIRED to reform in combat, and can, instead, choose to stay in the same place without reforming. It's a permissive ruleset - it doesn't have to say anything like that because this restriction is implicit in the definition of the word "reform." The allowance to reform combined with the definition of the word "reform" means that you CAN change your facing or composition, in which case you are reforming. If you don't change your facing or composition, you aren't reforming. Just like you aren't moving if you don't move, and you aren't casting a spell if you don't cast a spell... etc...

Here is the thing, Reform is no longer used in the normal sense (e.g. dictionary definition) when it comes to Warhammer because it is defined in game terms instead. This is even in the rules of this forum.

[quote="Tenats of You Make Da Call]
6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

In combat the restriction against moving the center is lifted.

It is not an added option to be chosen.

 kirsanth wrote:
In combat the restriction against moving the center is lifted.

It is not an added option to be chosen.

This is so clear that I can't believe it has to be stated.

The point is that you can't successfully cast a spell unless you actually cast a spell. You can't successfully cast a spell unless you roll a power die.

You can't reform unless you actually reform. You can't reform unless you rearrange a model.

WHFB BRB p.14 wrote:A unit of troops can change its the direction it is facing and rearrange its formation all at once by means of a maneuver called a reform.... Keeping the centre point of the unit the same, arrange the unit into a new formation of as many ranks as you please, facing whichever direction you wish. Remember that none of the models in the unit can move more than twice their Movement rate."

You even quoted the part of the book that proves you wrong. There's a maneuver called "reform." In order to reform, you do the bold and italicized part. If you don't do those things, you didn't reform. The book specifically tells you what to do in order to reform. If you don't touch any models, you don't "arrange" anything. At the same time, it even specifically says a NEW formation. "New" is not a WHFB term:

dictionary.com wrote:
1. of recent origin, production, purchase, etc.; having but lately come or been brought into being
2. of a kind now existing or appearing for the first time; novel:
3. having but lately or but now come into knowledge:
4. unfamiliar or strange
5. having but lately come to a place, position, status, etc.

You can't "choose" the side effect if the side effect is merely a removal of a restriction. I'm reforming! I'm not going to change my facing. I'm not going to rearrange models. However, IF I move, my center point need not stay in the same place. But I didn't create a "new" formation because the formation is not "of a kind now existing or appearing for the first time," "unfamiliar or strange," nor "having but lately come to a position."

And where is the permission to move? It only says that IF you move, the center point need not remain stationary. You don't have any permission to move when in combat. Could you then slide all the way around the enemy unit, such that you are now attacking the rear of that unit? It says that the center point of the unit, which is a single model, need not stay in the same place WHEN moving (rearranging or changing facing, in this context). But where is the permission TO MOVE other than when you rearrange or change facing into a NEW facing/arrangement (which, by definition, must be a DIFFERENT facing/arrangement than the unit's CURRENT facing/arrangement). The part about "as many ranks as you please, etc" is merely clarifying that, among the options that you DO have, you can choose any one of them that you like.

So let's take facing for example. You can face one of four ways: forward, backward, left, or right. You're currently facing forward. In order to complete a reform, you must change your facing to a NEW facing. This means that your options are already limited - you know that you canNOT choose to face forward, because that would not be "new." The "new" facing options are backward, left, and right. Among these options for a new facing, you may choose any that you wish.

You're reading the "any that you wish" part and ignoring the part about how it MUST be a NEW facing, and not realizing that "any that you wish" is just a clarification. "...arrange the unit into a new formation" is a command. If you want to complete the WHFB action called "Reform" then you don't have a choice.

A combat reform is essentially a standard reform
(page 14) save for the fact that it can be made
even though the unit is in close combat. The
most common usage of a combat reform is to
allow the unit to turn to face its enemy (if
attacked in the flank or rea r), although it can
also be used to bring more models into the fight
by increasing the unit's frontage. There is one
special restriction on a combat reform, however
- it cannot be used to get a model (friend or foe)
out of base contact with the enemy if it was in
contact before the reform was made. The model
can be in base contact with a different enemy at
the end of the reform if you wish.

Show me a rule where it says single model units cant reform and ill agree that he cant, not some grammar/dictionary/thesaurus game but an actual word for word RAW paragraph that explicitly states you cant reform single model units. If you cant, then I would have to side with hellstorm. Because as far as it goes now, a unit can reform, a single model Unit is a UNIT, so it can reform.

God this really reminds me of the 3 times i was overturned by a judge for trying to reform after catching a unit that was fleeing. I was told i was gaming the rules, and wasn't even given the change to look it up. Grrrr.

hachieman2000 wrote:


Show me a rule where it says single model units cant reform and ill agree that he cant, not some grammar/dictionary/thesaurus game but an actual word for word RAW paragraph that explicitly states you cant reform single model units. If you cant, then I would have to side with hellstorm. Because as far as it goes now, a unit can reform, a single model Unit is a UNIT, so it can reform.

God this really reminds me of the 3 times i was overturned by a judge for trying to reform after catching a unit that was fleeing. I was told i was gaming the rules, and wasn't even given the change to look it up. Grrrr.

It's a permissive ruleset. The rules of the game tell you what you CAN do, not what you CAN'T. There are some instances where the rules specifically say that you can't complete a certain action, but this doesn't turn the rules into a prohibitive ruleset. Really - are there still people who don't know this?

Hachie - it says to reform you have to alter your ranks, files and facing. You cannot alter your ranks or files, as you only have one, so what makes you think you can reform?

The slide still isnt legal.

So your saying I have to do a rank, file, or facing change to do a slide? Say I wanted tot get into B2B to smack a wizard around with my single model. It would be legal if I turn and give the enemy unit a flank attack and slide on over to the wizard.?

Camarodragon wrote:
So your saying I have to do a rank, file, or facing change to do a slide? Say I wanted tot get into B2B to smack a wizard around with my single model. It would be legal if I turn and give the enemy unit a flank attack and slide on over to the wizard.?

There is nothing saying that a single model cant move for a reform, regardless of facing. Look, if you were to kill the only model he was in base contact with, he isnt out of the combat, he will have to move down anyways to get back into combat. Its fine, and more than likely fine with your opponent. Just slide him down into a new position and you'll be ok. If the rules were perfect we wouldn't have judges to make rules callings, and where as all judges dont rule the same on things, your better ones will use common sense for grey areas. Just have fun!

You have two interpretations chose the one that you think works best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tangent wrote:

hachieman2000 wrote:


Show me a rule where it says single model units cant reform and ill agree that he cant, not some grammar/dictionary/thesaurus game but an actual word for word RAW paragraph that explicitly states you cant reform single model units. If you cant, then I would have to side with hellstorm. Because as far as it goes now, a unit can reform, a single model Unit is a UNIT, so it can reform.

God this really reminds me of the 3 times i was overturned by a judge for trying to reform after catching a unit that was fleeing. I was told i was gaming the rules, and wasn't even given the change to look it up. Grrrr.

It's a permissive ruleset. The rules of the game tell you what you CAN do, not what you CAN'T. There are some instances where the rules specifically say that you can't complete a certain action, but this doesn't turn the rules into a prohibitive ruleset. Really - are there still people who don't know this?

Yes I realize this that why I said a single model unit CAN reform per the BRB

Yet, as pointed out, he cannot fulfill the requirements of actually making the reform. So no, per RAW he cannot.

If you disagree please cite rules showing this to be wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hachie - it says to reform you have to alter your ranks, files and facing. You cannot alter your ranks or files, as you only have one, so what makes you think you can reform?

The slide still isnt legal.

To reform you need not change your ranks and files as illustrated in the diagram. A simple change of facing is sufficiant I believe.

If I have a 5x5 unit and I want to turn it around 180 deg I dont have to alter it to a 6x4 to qualify as legal reform.

True but a slide doesn't really change your facing.

 HoverBoy wrote:
True but a slide doesn't really change your facing.

It does if you turn to the side and give him your flank. Thus all the requirements of a normal reform are met and all the rules for a combat reform are followed. I do believe that you would still have to stay in B2B with the models you are already touching, thus would be limiting your sliding by probably only one model.

Camarodragon wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
True but a slide doesn't really change your facing.

It does if you turn to the side and give him your flank. Thus all the requirements of a normal reform are met and all the rules for a combat reform are followed. I do believe that you would still have to stay in B2B with the models you are already touching, thus would be limiting your sliding by probably only one model.

As I mentioned in my previous posts, I am of the opinion that this is correct. The rules as written suggest that you can use a combat reform to change your facing even if you are already facing to the front, such that AFTER the reform, you are facing sideways or backwards. During this change-of-facing, you can "slide" exactly one model left or right. If the enemy unit is now facing your flank or rear, they would get +1 or +2 to combat resolution, respectively.

I love the mental image of a character dancing around in front of an enemy unit in order to get to the squishy wizard on the other side.

I think i'll call it the "Imma getcha shuffle".

 HoverBoy wrote:
I love the mental image of a character dancing around in front of an enemy unit in order to get to the squishy wizard on the other side.

I think i'll call it the "Imma getcha shuffle".

Yeah - it is, of course, ridiculous. In my opinion, the rules should be written to specifically prohibit a "slide" of any kind and also specifically prohibit turning to expose your flank or rear to the enemy. Actually, a "slide" in order to get more models into b2b would be alright, imo.

That's what slides are generally used for, doing it the other way would brake the rule about having less models fighting.

No, I mean, as written now, the rule applies to an individual model. I would want the slide to be able to move a unit of 5 guys against a unit of 5 guys but only touching 2 models into touching all 5.