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So, I had an epic starter box game of Circle vs Trollbloods this weekend. It literally went along the lines of Warpwolf butchered my Axer and Impalers before "spirit door"-ing his way out of troll charge range and was Stealthed so that I couldn't throw spears or Rathrok at him. I decided to throw those spears at Kaya instead and damaged her pretty effectively but that left those guys open to a charge. Finally, it was down to Madrak against the Warp, Kaya and a Winter Argus. I thought I'd killed Kaya but she had camped Fury and transfered damage to the Wolf. I cut myself for an extra throw of Rathrok but missed. The Winter Argus charged me in the back and killed Madrak except for his tough roll!! The Argus bought another attack and killed Madrak.

It was exactly the kind of back and forth, unpredictable game that Hordes was promised as and I can't wait for the rematch.

This brings me to my question about Madrak's Talisman of Subdual. The rules state "This model cannot be charged or slam power attacked by a warbeast that began in this model's front arc." Does this leave Madrak completely safe from Warbeasts? (That's how we played the last game. Hence why the winter charged him in the back after sneaking up a flank.) Could i conceivably cast sure foot to give Madrak +2 def, then walk him so that he can see Kaya, get snipe from an impaler and start throwing Rathrok at her safe from her beasts as long as I keep them in front of Madrak?

Excuse me if this is totally wrong because I've only played this one game.

I'm not sure about most of your questions but I can tell you that you can not cut yourself to gain fury except in the control phase (Hordes p76 under leeching second paragraph).

Silver_skates wrote:


This brings me to my question about Madrak's Talisman of Subdual. The rules state "This model cannot be charged or slam power attacked by a warbeast that began in this model's front arc." Does this leave Madrak completely safe from Warbeasts? (That's how we played the last game. Hence why the winter charged him in the back after sneaking up a flank.) Could i conceivably cast sure foot to give Madrak +2 def, then walk him so that he can see Kaya, get snipe from an impaler and start throwing Rathrok at her safe from her beasts as long as I keep them in front of Madrak?

Excuse me if this is totally wrong because I've only played this one game.

Short answer: No, beasts can still attack you, they just cannot charge or slam Madrak when they start from his front arc.

Longer answer: the ability does just what it says, prevents charging or slamming of Madrak by beasts. You are essentially preventing those 3" of extra movement and the auto-boosted die of damage from a charge. There is nothing preventing beasts from walking up and hitting Madrak with thier initial attacks. There are a few tricks that could happen too. Trample would allow the additional 3" of movement, but you don't actually trample over anything. You are getting the 3" of additional movement to get the beast into Melee range and then buying attacks with the beasts fury. This works because even though things that prevent charging also prevent trampling, you are not and cannot trample over Madrak (med based model). Another trick is to charge something else near/next to Madrak so you can get the 3" of additional movement, but still be in Melee range to Madrak. The first initial attackwould go towards the charge target, than all other initial attack would go towards Madrack and then you could buy more attacks towards Madrak. If there is nothing near Madrak to charge, your opponent canrun a model next to Madrack, then have another beast charge his own model, attack it, and then use/buy other initial attacks to hit Madrak. And then there is my favorite, slam something else over Madrack. If there isn't an model that you can slam over Madrack, run your own model in line, and hit your own model in the back arc and slam it into/over Madrack to knock him down and maybe do some damage (remember the collateral damage on Madrack cannot be boosted, because you cannot boost collateral damage).

So no, the ability doesn't make Madrack safe from beasts.

Silver_skates wrote:


This brings me to my question about Madrak's Talisman of Subdual. The rules state "This model cannot be charged or slam power attacked by a warbeast that began in this model's front arc." Does this leave Madrak completely safe from Warbeasts? (That's how we played the last game. Hence why the winter charged him in the back after sneaking up a flank.) Could i conceivably cast sure foot to give Madrak +2 def, then walk him so that he can see Kaya, get snipe from an impaler and start throwing Rathrok at her safe from her beasts as long as I keep them in front of Madrak?

Excuse me if this is totally wrong because I've only played this one game.

no. he cannot be charged. ybut ou can still walk up to him and start punching him in the face. or else "running to engage" ie run at him and in the next turn, assuming beasty is still alive, you can let rip. (hint: you dont have to charge to get into melee range!)

also, check your rules for additional ranged attacks. you only get one ranged attack with rathrok (aside from snap fire). you need to have a ROF of 2 in order to spend a fury to "Buy" an extra ranged attack. and Madrak dont got it!

however, assuming kaya doesnt have stealth up, there is nothing stopping each of your impalers casting snipe on themselves to get shot onto her, followed by madrak doing the same thing.

Boo! Thinking of it, that would have made Madrak OP. No wonder he survived so long on his own against two warbeasts and a caster.

I think my opponent was going easy on me or didn't understand rules either.

to be honest, the trolls starter is a bit of a handicap itself, as you have 3 light warbeasts, while circle and skorne get 2 lights and a heavy, and legion get a heavy and a few lights.

personally, i think circle v skorne is a better match up at the beginning.

With his talisman, it only means exactly what it says it does. He can't be charged or slammed by warbeasts that begin their activation in his front arc.

They can however, charge something else and just happen to end their charge in melee range of Madrak. Or just walk/run to engage him.

Your report seems to say that Madrak threw is axe many times a turn. He can't because it's Rof (Rate of fire) 1.

Can I not use a Fury to throw the axe agin in a turn?

Thanks for clarity on cutting. I thought you could do it any time you wanted.

You can never "shoot" more times than the RoF stat of a weapon unless there is a special rule to say otherwise.

Silver_skates wrote:
Can I not use a Fury to throw the axe agin in a turn?

Thanks for clarity on cutting. I thought you could do it any time you wanted.

This is a common mistake.

When you choose to make Initial Attacks you get to make 1 attack with each ranged or each melee weapon you have (maybe both, if you have virtuoso or a similar rule). Afterwards if you have the ability to make additional attacks you can there is no inherent limit to the number of attacks you can buy with fury or focus. This is no issue with melee weapons which (generally), have no specific limit on how many attacks they can make in a round. However ranged weapons do, Rate of Fire. That represents the most number of attacks you get in a round with it. Many new players think it's the number of times you fire it when you make attacks, it isn't! It's just the upper limit on the number of attacks you can make with that weapon.

In the case of a weapon with Rate of Fire 1, you've already made the maximum attacks you can make with it once you've made your initial attack. Now Madrak has a special rule that lets him make a second attack the first time he kills something with it, but that specifically ignores rate of fire. Some examples:


Example 1: Pistol-Happy-Doug has 5 pistols with Rate of Fire 1. When he makes his initial attacks he makes a total 5 ranged attacks (1 for each pistol). Afterwards he can't make any additional attacks because all of his weapons have met their rate of fire limit.

Example 2: Revolver Bill has 1 Revolver with Rate of Fire 6. When he makes his initial attacks he makes a total of 1 ranged attack, 1 for his single revolver. Afterwards he can make up to 5 more additional ranged attacks because his Revolver has Rate of Fire 6. Assuming he has rules that allows him to make additional attacks!

Example 3: Gun-Crazy-Greg has 2 Pistols with Rate of Fire 1 and a Revolver with Rate of Fire 6. When he makes his initial attacks he makes a total of 3 ranged attacks, 1 with each of his pistols and 1 with the revovler. Aftewards he can make up to 5 more ranged attacks with his revolver because his revolver has rate of fire 6. He still can't make more attacks with his pistols.

Example 4: Epic Caine has 2 Pistols with rate of fire infinite. When he makes his initial ranged attacks he makes 2 attacks, 1 for each pistol. Afterwards he can make any number of ranged attacks, which can be with either pistol until he runs out of ways to buy more attacks as his Guns have an infinite rate of fire. He is an actual model in the game.

Some models may have rules like Strafe or Rapid Fire, that allows them to make multiple attacks when they make certain kinds of attacks with the weapon. You can still only *CHOOSE* to make attacks with weapons a number of times equal to their rate of fire (generally 1).

Some rules may say "Ignoring Rate of Fire" these aren't limited by and don't count towards the weapons RoF limit.

Rate of Fire only applies during a models activation. If some effect would cause it to make an attack when it isn't the model's turn, don't account for RoF.