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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




So I was setting up my army and had 10 points to waste. So i throw GoM on my DP. Well I rolled 64 for multi gifts, followed by a 6 for 4 total. Well my gift came up +1 weapon skill. The 2nd gift came up multi gifts again. Now this seems a little much but i could not find anywhere that it said it stacks or to re roll that result. So my opponent said i could, so i did. I wont up getting 10 total gifts. Now to me this seems wrong. Is there any place that states this is allowed or not? And if you want to know what the gits all were here is the list :

+1 Weapon Skill (twice)
+1 Attack
+1 Wound (twice)
+Melee Attacks have instant death
+Fleet
+1 Toughness
+ Feel no pain
+1 Ballistics skill

Yeah i got lucky as hell but the rest of the games sucked. I rolled like crap form that point on.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

It's actually under the Champion of Chaos special rule. So you could not have had +1 WS or +1 Wound twice.

Whether or not you can benefit from the multiple boons boon multiple times (try saying that three times fast) is debatable (although it has not really been debated here).

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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But that's for boons from killing a champion not the gift of mutation. Or do you just use that one line of the paragraph? (But that is what i assumed anyway. I'm just trying to make sure i did not do anything wrong.)
   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

OK, without referring to Champions of Chaos special rule, how do you roll on the Boon Table (by which I mean the mechanics of rolling on the table)?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





 Happyjew wrote:
OK, without referring to Champions of Chaos special rule, how do you roll on the Boon Table (by which I mean the mechanics of rolling on the table)?


??

You pick up a die, roll it to get the first number. Then roll the die again to get the second number. Then you put them together and look up the result.....

------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect 
   
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Let me get this straight, you scored 10 boons on a Daemon Prince? Your dice must love you!
   
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

clively wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
OK, without referring to Champions of Chaos special rule, how do you roll on the Boon Table (by which I mean the mechanics of rolling on the table)?


??

You pick up a die, roll it to get the first number. Then roll the die again to get the second number. Then you put them together and look up the result.....

You might want to re-read the boon of mutation power on P.70 It specifically tells you to roll on the table as described under the Champions of Chaos special rule on P. 28.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Twisting Tzeentch Horror





 DeathReaper wrote:
clively wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
OK, without referring to Champions of Chaos special rule, how do you roll on the Boon Table (by which I mean the mechanics of rolling on the table)?


??

You pick up a die, roll it to get the first number. Then roll the die again to get the second number. Then you put them together and look up the result.....

You might want to re-read the boon of mutation power on P.70 It specifically tells you to roll on the table as described under the Champions of Chaos special rule on P. 28.

Meaning you cannot get any boon you have already gotten (including multiple boons) again.

Separate question, my champ gas gifts, rolls and gets +1 WS.
Champ kills a character, gets DP.
Champ (currently DP( gets a boon of mutation used on it, rolls +1 WS... do i get +1 WS (yes i realize this only makes a difference fighting a WS10 model but still.)

Mess with the best, Die like the rest. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 jegsar wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
clively wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
OK, without referring to Champions of Chaos special rule, how do you roll on the Boon Table (by which I mean the mechanics of rolling on the table)?
??

You pick up a die, roll it to get the first number. Then roll the die again to get the second number. Then you put them together and look up the result.....

You might want to re-read the boon of mutation power on P.70 It specifically tells you to roll on the table as described under the Champions of Chaos special rule on P. 28.

Meaning you cannot get any boon you have already gotten (including multiple boons) again.


Right, HJ was asking "how do you roll on the Boon Table without referring to Champions of Chaos special rule" I was pointing out to clively that the rule itself tells you to reference the Champions of Chaos special rule, so you do not know how to roll on the table unless you consult the Champions of Chaos special rule.
 jegsar wrote:

Separate question, my champ gas gifts, rolls and gets +1 WS.
Champ kills a character, gets DP.
Champ (currently DP( gets a boon of mutation used on it, rolls +1 WS... do i get +1 WS (yes i realize this only makes a difference fighting a WS10 model but still.)

Why would you get a second +1 WS? you said yourself that "you cannot get any boon you have already gotten (including multiple boons)"

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Well do you lose the +1 ws when you replace the model with a second model?
If not then i think it would be a different champion and therefore could get it again, if it does keep it (i don't see anywhere it says it doesn't and it does say transform into a daemon prince with power armor.) then i think he should not be able to get it again. of course if he loses off of his special rules then what about something like 'fleet'?

Mess with the best, Die like the rest. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The argument has been raised before, and comes down to: Is a Boon itself a special rule (that is lost, as you are told) or is it something else?

It is a rule that is special, certainly, however it does not fall udner the title "SPecial Rule" in the codex, unlike other rules that are special.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




See you guys are all talking about the Champions of Chaos special rule, which a daemon prince does not get. This is why I'm confused about the whole thing. It can gift of mutation tho, and the entry on gift of mutation just states to re roll the ones that turn you into spawn and daemon prince.
   
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Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

GOM has only one drawback, and that is that you cannot be turned into a DP at the start of the game (shucks!) The rules simply state that you may roll on the Chaos Boon Table. However, specifically NOT stating you must reroll things you have already obtained...

I cannot see why you should have to lose out on multiple gifts because of a GOM rolling the same thing, as the rules are different between GOM and Killing someone in a challenge, and rolling because of COC.. COC specifically states you can't stack results, GOM doesn't..


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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

GoliothOnline wrote:
GOM has only one drawback, and that is that you cannot be turned into a DP at the start of the game (shucks!) The rules simply state that you may roll on the Chaos Boon Table. However, specifically NOT stating you must reroll things you have already obtained...

I cannot see why you should have to lose out on multiple gifts because of a GOM rolling the same thing, as the rules are different between GOM and Killing someone in a challenge, and rolling because of COC.. COC specifically states you can't stack results, GOM doesn't..



The problem is the only rules for how to roll on the table are under Champs of Chaos. This means you have to reference the Champs of Chaos rule to find out how to roll on the table. So you look at the rule to determine how to roll, and it specifically states that if you roll a boon you already have you do not benefit from it. The only two questions that remain, are a) can you benefit from the multiple boons boon more than once, and b) do you lose the boons if you turn into a spawn/prince.

Also, you do not get to re-roll if you roll a result you already have. You can roll +1 WS every time you roll on hte table, but you only get the benefit once.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/21 15:56:38


Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

 Happyjew wrote:
GoliothOnline wrote:
GOM has only one drawback, and that is that you cannot be turned into a DP at the start of the game (shucks!) The rules simply state that you may roll on the Chaos Boon Table. However, specifically NOT stating you must reroll things you have already obtained...

I cannot see why you should have to lose out on multiple gifts because of a GOM rolling the same thing, as the rules are different between GOM and Killing someone in a challenge, and rolling because of COC.. COC specifically states you can't stack results, GOM doesn't..



The problem is the only rules for how to roll on the table are under Champs of Chaos. This means you have to reference the Champs of Chaos rule to find out how to roll on the table. So you look at the rule to determine how to roll, and it specifically states that if you roll a boon you already have you do not benefit from it. The only two questions that remain, are a) can you benefit from the multiple boons boon more than once, and b) do you lose the boons if you turn into a spawn/prince.

Also, you do not get to re-roll if you roll a result you already have. You can roll +1 WS every time you roll on hte table, but you only get the benefit once.


Correct, and my apologies if i didn't clarify my perception on the matter correctly, or clearly, but the rule for COC states that discard results you already have obtained. However no where in the rules for GOM does it say so.

As for the "Guide line" on how to roll for the chaos boon chart, there were no limitations other than the specific rules allowing you in 2 instances (GOM and COC) to roll on said chart. That being said, if you were to roll on the chaos boon chart due to GOM, and received multiple rewards, then proceeded to gain the same thing (Lets use bloated for example) multiple times, you should technically, not be restricted from gaining that boon twice. On the flip side, due to COC specific rule for rolling on the boon table due to killing or aiding in killing an IC or Champion from another army, you may not stack multiple rewards (Bloated for example) because the rule for COC specifically states you may not.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Goliath - if you are not using the CoC rule, how do you know how to roll on the table?
   
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Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Goliath - if you are not using the CoC rule, how do you know how to roll on the table?


Really Nos? lol

Page 67 - Gift of Mutation ; Before deployment, roll on the chaos boon table (29) and mark the result on your army roster. Do not apply Spawnhood or Dark Apotheosis results, roll again on the table instead.

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New Orleans, LA

edit: Woops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/21 16:45:37


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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Kronk - you definitely can give a DP GoM, it is 100% there in their options.

Goliath - and how do you roll on the table? The only rules that tell you HOW to roll on the table are in CoC
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

Dang. I have a summary spreadsheet that I look at from time to time at work. I must have missed that option when I made it. Suck...

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Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Kronk - you definitely can give a DP GoM, it is 100% there in their options.

Goliath - and how do you roll on the table? The only rules that tell you HOW to roll on the table are in CoC


so... you're telling this poor chap that an introductory explanation on how to roll a d66, must always mean you take your ruling from that section of the book?...

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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Saying that the rules for how to roll on the table don't apply because they are under the Champion of Chaos special rule, is akin to saying you cannot take saves in close combat because the rules for hoe to do it are in the Shooting section.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant





Canada

The rules for Champion of Chaos are stated that you cannot benefit from the same boon multiple times...

The rules for Gift of Mutation state that you cannot benefit from Dark Apotheosis nor Spawnhood...

The rules are layed out clear as rain... This seems like something pretty trivial to be arguing over, much like the dreaded Abaddon's Mark of Chaos Ascendant rule and everyone other than myself Arguing that he couldn't join a marked squad.... Delving deeper and taking things out of context, when rules are plainly written in each category, doesn't make you correct.

Read each rule separately, and apply the rule, each category lists under it's own ruling...

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Manchester, NH

 Happyjew wrote:
Saying that the rules for how to roll on the table don't apply because they are under the Champion of Chaos special rule, is akin to saying you cannot take saves in close combat because the rules for hoe to do it are in the Shooting section.


This. Attempting to use a less-detailed special rule to get around the prohibition on stacking a given boon multiple times smacks of Easter Egg-hunting. Champion of Chaos establishes the baseline for how you use the Gift chart, and Gift of Mutation gives a new eligibility criterion and modifies the basic usage; it doesn't replace it entirely.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Goliath - meaning you cannot roll on the table, as the only thing telling you HOW to roll on the table is under CoC. The rules ARE laid out clearly - if you dont use CoC, you dont get to roll
   
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With GoM you can ALMOST never get the same result as you roll it before deployment and only warp talon champs and possessed marines can purchase more then 1.

Also my question wasn't as much about losing the special rules as it is if the champion model and the daemon prince are considered the same character.
If a
boon is rolled that the character already has, the roll has
no effect.
This boon can be gotten though boom of mutation being used on him.

Mess with the best, Die like the rest. 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




thanks for all your input but as things are, today at my local store the TO made the call and scene it is his store too the ruling is now law in the store to stop all arguments. He has said scene GoM never references the champion of chaos info that all boons stack at the time of creation. The exception is if they have the champ of chaos rule or gained latter from said rule. Oddly it did not bother most players, could be cause there are only 2 of us playing CSM. I personally think this was a hasty and well bad call, but scene it is what it is i will use it if it happens again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/21 21:40:09


 
   
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"Gif of mutation" sounds like an animated .gif of some poor schmuck turning into a spawn.
   
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New Orleans, LA

Zaphier wrote:
thanks for all your input but as things are, today at my local store the TO made the call and scene it is his store too the ruling is now law in the store to stop all arguments. He has said scene GoM never references the champion of chaos info that all boons stack at the time of creation. The exception is if they have the champ of chaos rule or gained latter from said rule. Oddly it did not bother most players, could be cause there are only 2 of us playing CSM. I personally think this was a hasty and well bad call, but scene it is what it is i will use it if it happens again.


The word you are looking for is "since".

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 kronk wrote:
Zaphier wrote:
thanks for all your input but as things are, today at my local store the TO made the call and scene it is his store too the ruling is now law in the store to stop all arguments. He has said scene GoM never references the champion of chaos info that all boons stack at the time of creation. The exception is if they have the champ of chaos rule or gained latter from said rule. Oddly it did not bother most players, could be cause there are only 2 of us playing CSM. I personally think this was a hasty and well bad call, but scene it is what it is i will use it if it happens again.


The word you are looking for is "since".

He might've meant "seeing as" or "seeing that", which from my experience is often slurred in colloquial speech to sound like "seen" (or "scene").

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/21 22:53:52


 
   
 
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