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I have not been on the forums as much as I used to be over the last 12months....Any way I thought I'd finally come out of the closet and share what I have been upto....
So if you want to play Flames of War v3 in a Modern Cold War Setting of the 1980's, I give you my take on it....The rules-pack is the big PDF symbol on the right (big clue!).
Criticism or observations welcome, but bear in mind if it's a question of taste I'll tell you to write you own damn ruleset...
Lists will follow soon.
There is plenty in there to be going on with, and please feel free to make suggestions and recommendations.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/10 10:03:32
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
mwnciboo wrote: I have not been on the forums as much as I used to be over the last 12months....Any way I thought I'd finally come out of the closet and share what I have been upto....
So if you want to play Flames of War v3 in a Modern Cold War Setting of the 1980's, I give you my take on it....The rules-pack is the big PDF symbol on the right (big clue!).
Try again...click on the Book icon. I've been quickly editing something i spotted so it might be my fault.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/21 21:17:12
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
Just for starters I based this around Orbats in 1986.
But I got fed up of people saying "What no Apache? and What no Warrior AFV?" so I added in some bits and pieces that aren't strictly 1986.
All told there will be hundreds of modifications to made, but nothing like this is ever complete so I've released it as is. Force lists and points values to follow.
This has been play tested 15 times in different ways and different scenario's.
If anyone has a good point, I'll look at it, if people just want to bitch and moan then they can ram it.
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
No it's just for the Helicopters rules, if you aren't planning on using Helo's or Gunships you don't need the rules and can play it with just the FOW v3 rules. I will eventually get round to a "Hatchett job" and just type the "Gunship and Transport Helicopter rules" over to the main rule book. (will edit the blog to reflect this!).
EDIT- I have the lists and Points done, but does anyone have a FOW type Blank Company Diagram that I can import the pictures and points costs? like this (but blank?) :-
Otherwise I will release it as a PDF with my own lists like this...
I have done all the Vehicle Silhouettes (something like 130) as a labour of love, with a Nice Company diagram we could make these look very good. If someone wants to knock one up in Word and send it to my E-mail I would appreciate the help. (Just e-mail to mwnciboo@gmail.com)
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/01/22 20:42:19
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
It's not perfect, still needs tidying up but as you can see they will all be in this style. Each Diagram will come with a 1 page Infantry and platoon setup guide.
I have been using SCRIBUS and learning how to do this as it is more of a Publishing software rather than a Word Processor.
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
I must say, Im impressed. Glad to see new "garage" projects about the cold war!
But few notes about the soviet list - Im pretty much no-go with anything else than basic specs of the NATO toys:
- T-72A of that era should not have ATGM capability.
- T-72B is the one having ATGM-capability, but its not on the list at all. Thous it would be difficult vehicle to model in term of rules, as its notably heavier in terms of armour than A, but as far as I know, not as heavy as Challenger 1 (check my suggestion few lines down). Again, Im not expert, but if we take the "average" of protection, the T-72B should be in same class than M1A1 Abrams. After all, Bravo is notably heavier protected against ATGMs than Abe, but then, Abrams has more protection against kinetic penetrators. But if we take rough average, Bravo would be pretty much match for the Abrams.
- If you want to add the "super tough" into the list, add T-80UD (1988-89+). Im quite comfortable that it would go into the same AV class than Challenger 1.
- Why T-64BM is weaker than T-62M? The T-64, in name of all that is holy, was propably the best soviet tank before T-72B and T-80UD, and if we take on account the era, even better than neither of those. The AV should be at least same than in T-80B, as the turret is same, and the hull was up-armored.
Small NATO notification:
- I would say that Chal 1 is heavier protected than M1A1. Im no expert with these, so someone could give some acctuall intel about this, but this is what I remember.
- Chieftains didnt have TOGS-sight (Thermals) installed in large numbers until 1987+,as even some Challenger units did lack these in 1986.
- Again about FLIR-sights, Im quite sure that Leo 2s didnt have thermal sights in 1986. If someone has any intel about this, again, please correct me.
And few corrections proposed:
- To my eyes, BMDs are way too heavily armored. BMP is notably tougher than those "baby" IFVs, especially BMD-1 which aluminium armour wasnt very practicall, and should be noted, that these werent meant to resist anything but shrapnell and handgun fire. The main purpose of these was support fighting with their fire.
- Again about BMDs &BMPs - BMD-2 didnt wield Saggers in any point, it should be armed with AT-5. Same launcher than used in AT-4 system, but more advanced missile. With BMD-1 you should use sagger, the AT-4 was installed to the BMD-1P upgrade package, which wasnt complete retrofit so some BMDs would propably still be armed with AT-3s or be without ATGM system.
- I would suggest you to rise the ASU-85s AV, at least the frontal value. Its classed being same as the PT-76, but again, PT-76s frontal armour is around 20-25mm, and ASU-85s is a bit more than 40mm, and its heavily sloped.
- Whats that 50mm gun spoken with the BTR-50? Shouldnt have anything like that, if we speak about "basic" open topped model, it would be armed with SGMB-GPMG or DushKa.
- MT-LB didnt wield DusHka (as a basic variant, at least), the "mini turret" carries PKT/PKM - both 7.62 GPMGs.
- Up armour BRDM-1 - as its based on BTR-40, it should have pretty much same specs, if not better, than that.
- Im not so familiar with BRM-1, but shouldnt it have same AV as BMP-1?
- About the Hind: No AV? Or did I miss some special rule? Or are these "non-chopper" air assets, same way as planes?
- AAs: Beef up tunguska. When it was introduced, it did same to the soviet air defence as the Smerch (BM-30) did do to the rocket artillery. It should be, if not superior, at least in the same level than Gepard, and with AAGM capability. The flaw of these should be the limited number.
Cheers MaahisKuningas will incorporate stuff like this..
It's such a massive project I need the help.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Are there actually models out there that we can use to support this? I'm very much interested but haven't really seen Modern 15mm minis.
There is Quickreactionforce, Peter pig, Skytrex and many others like MJ Figures, Old Glory etc
There is actually loads out there.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/06 11:32:21
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
mwnciboo wrote: Cheers MaahisKuningas will incorporate stuff like this..
It's such a massive project I need the help.
Hi! I checked the fixed list, and I noted the T-72B taken place of T-72A. I really dont recommend doing that. During cold war, T-72 Bravo wasnt in service in any other country than soviet union itself, and there was a reason for that - it was good, way ahead of those cheap export variants being smashed into pieces in Desert Storm.
But T-72A (or if we talk about updated export version, roughly as capable as T-72A but with less up-to-date ammunition, manual target aquiring and no composite armour, called T-72M1) was in service in most WPAC countries. So I would recommend you to add T-72B instead of replacing A.
Again, T-72 Bravo, in terms of armour protection, is from another planet than T-80B. T-72B composite turret offers protection equivelant of 950mm of RHA (Rolled Homogenous Armour) againt HEAT projectiles, but T-80B only 550mm. Against kinetic penetrators, (APFSDS, fex.) theyre more close another, but still T-72B is heavier protected by 520 RHA-millimeters against 500mm of T-80B. If we take on comparision the M1A1 Abrams, its turret offers protection of 600 RHA-mm vs APFSDS-type kinetic penetrators, and 700 mm vs HEAT type projectiles. So again, I would recommend to add bravo to the list, with better AV than T-80B. So if we take rough average, a FoW itself does, the T-72B should be pretty much equivelant to M1A1.
So to keep this simple, the T-80B, T-72A and T-64B (Icludes BM, thou I would suggest you keeping the orginall T-64B on a list instead of BM) would be pretty much equivelant in combat performance - at least IRL they were, and this did create quite "fight under the carpet" in USSR as the T-80 was meant to be "super tank", but it was allmost three times more expensive to produce than T-72A, wih only minor advantages over it if we exclude the ATGM capability offered also by retrofitted T-64B.
And btw, in terms of range the 115mm smoothbore is roughly equivelant to 125mm, as it was adopted cos soviet high command wanted to issue APFSDS-type rounds (..and wield bigger main gun than NATOs 105mm - god bless the generals in all ignorance they come up to).
If you want to doublecheck these, I recommend ospreys booklets, most of them can be found from scribd.
Yeah i know what you saying checks out. But Flames of War isn't always accurate for reasons of playability and balance.
If we were to play COLD WAR properly it would be the RED ARMY battering and smashing everything before nukes started to rain down from NATO this makes a poor tabletop wargame. There needs to be a semblence of balance even outside of reality for reasons of table-top playability, remember this is Wargaming not simulation.
So it's a Wargame in a historical Context, not a Historical Game or a Simulation. I will try to implement many of the things you have said above, but just be aware that it is a Wargame, so their will be things that do not match exactly the Real world performance for reasons of balance, otherwise I will be re-writing everything "Ad infinitum" and the whole thing doesn't work.
I don't want to make T72 the same as an M1A1 or Challenger 1 because then the whole thing comes crashing down, it would mean the whole idea of NATO being outnumbered 3:1 minimum a pointless exercise, like 3 Panthers versus 9 Panthers. Even with slight buffs of Morale and Competence there is no way you can win, which makes unbalanced and no-one will play want to play NATO because they will get pwned. What I have at the moment is an Equilibrium where NATO Tanks are hard pressed 3:1 and restricted in high points costs, with a few edges (such as FCC etc) which helps them out. When playing you get the feeling of desperation as you try to hold back the tide of armour.
However, thanks for all the feed back thus far it is very helpful and has pointed out things I can re-do, reconsider and change - it is invaluable. Now looking at Soviet Tanks and naming / AT Values...But please don't be offended if I don't change everything to be inline with your recommendations.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/02/06 14:51:50
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
Very impressive. I like that the majority of the troops are trained and not veterans. Realistically there should be little to no veteran troops. I will be paying close attention to this thread.
The black rage is within us all. Lies offer no shield against the inevitable. You speak of donning the black of duty for the red of brotherhood; but it is the black of rage you shall wear when the darkness comes for you.
Generalstoner wrote: Very impressive. I like that the majority of the troops are trained and not veterans. Realistically there should be little to no veteran troops. I will be paying close attention to this thread.
Yeah pretty much, some would have higher Ethos and Morale, I've used the USMC as a good Example being Fearless Trained, and the same with the Soviet VDV Airborne Forces.
Special Forces, when I release some Infantry specialist lists will be Fearless Vets, probably looking at Rangers, Green Berets, Royal Marines, Dutch Marines, Parachute Regiment, Fernspahcompanie, Spetsnaz, Independent Guards units etc.
The whole thing becomes unstable if I nerf NATO too much, or up WARPAC too much. The Soviets get Decent Equipment, in large amounts for cheap points, the NATO guys get Excellent and Diverse Equipment in small amounts for large points. Throw in extra Artillery special rules like Artillery Delivered Mine fields (NATO) or Chemical Rounds (WARPAC) and you get extra flavour of the forces.
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
I did toy with this, the chief problem being they are Maritime based, not much call for that in Central Germany. I did do the USMC as a request and it did with fit the 2nd Marine Divisions Mission in Europe.
My thoughts would be (If not used in securing Norway) - they would land in Denmark to reinforce the Danes (if they held out more than 24 hrs which is doubtful) or as Counter Strike force on the North Baltic Coast (dangerous given Soviet Air-support and the port of St.Petersburg), or Potentially landing around the Kiel Canal / Wilhelmshaven or possible in the Netherlands if the NATO plan was going extremely badly.
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
Hi guys, sorry to hijack the thread but anyone interested in a cold war version of FOW should check out my thread in the other historical board about Zvezdas new 2013 releases.
LuciusAR wrote: Hi guys, sorry to hijack the thread but anyone interested in a cold war version of FOW should check out my thread in the other historical board about Zvezdas new 2013 releases.
mwnciboo wrote: Cheers MaahisKuningas will incorporate stuff like this..
It's such a massive project I need the help.
I spent years doing modern microarmour. I'll see if I can get you a Swedish list or two
DOUBLE EPIC - We all know SWEDEN has always done it's own thing, it would be interesting for me to a do an Expansion into Scandanavia, Finland, Sweden, Norway. Especially because the Fierce Independent neutrality of Sweden makes for very interesting scenario's,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/11 13:53:48
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
mwnciboo wrote: Cheers MaahisKuningas will incorporate stuff like this..
It's such a massive project I need the help.
I spent years doing modern microarmour. I'll see if I can get you a Swedish list or two
DOUBLE EPIC - We all know SWEDEN has always done it's own thing, it would be interesting for me to a do an Expansion into Scandanavia, Finland, Sweden, Norway. Especially because the Fierce Independent neutrality of Sweden makes for very interesting scenario's,
LOL I spent years leading Swedish modern microarmour armies around. Very innovative, and the big advantage was you could legitimately fight NATO or WARPAC with them
I did toy with this, the chief problem being they are Maritime based, not much call for that in Central Germany. I did do the USMC as a request and it did with fit the 2nd Marine Divisions Mission in Europe.
My thoughts would be (If not used in securing Norway) - they would land in Denmark to reinforce the Danes (if they held out more than 24 hrs which is doubtful) or as Counter Strike force on the North Baltic Coast (dangerous given Soviet Air-support and the port of St.Petersburg), or Potentially landing around the Kiel Canal / Wilhelmshaven or possible in the Netherlands if the NATO plan was going extremely badly.
Well depends on how they use us. Afghanistan's proved we aren't Maritime based as much as we wish we were.
I think there's a lot of options Cold War wise for cool amphibious assaults, but that might be more for something along the lines of a "splat book" in addition to this. You could for example have a MEU assaulting Iceland or Greenland to counter a Soviet conquest of those areas. A combined naval and Marine task force assaulting and destroying the St. Petersburg port facilities is another possibility.
and now have some Leningrad Cowboys XD
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
That is definitely an option, Greenland and Iceland were key to interdict the Roll-over Convoys and also to give the Bears, Badgers and Blackjacks a free rein with ASM.
I think Iceland in particular would have been a brutal Soviet Airborne or Spetsnaz versus US marines or UK marines Battle etc.
So I have three more books then:-
1. Scandanavian Campaign.
2. Icelandic Campaign.
3. Special Forces (Raiding Aces for Cold War essentially).
MEU is more STOM based so is focused on Raiding or potentially holding open Beach-heads for follow-on units right? So actually it might be more suited for Raiding Scenarios? Either way MEU and MEU-SOCS are very capable formations and really are what you need today in an unstable world. MEU is basically the "Leatherman of Military tools" funny how the US army now has Brigade Combat Teams?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/12 12:34:01
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
I just want a reason to model this guy.
I wonder if he did not get that outfit from FEMA......
Has anyone looked into the old TWilight 2000 game for resource materail.it is still around just in torrent form.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/12 16:54:30
mwnciboo wrote: That is definitely an option, Greenland and Iceland were key to interdict the Roll-over Convoys and also to give the Bears, Badgers and Blackjacks a free rein with ASM.
I think Iceland in particular would have been a brutal Soviet Airborne or Spetsnaz versus US marines or UK marines Battle etc.
So I have three more books then:-
1. Scandanavian Campaign.
2. Icelandic Campaign.
3. Special Forces (Raiding Aces for Cold War essentially).
MEU is more STOM based so is focused on Raiding or potentially holding open Beach-heads for follow-on units right? So actually it might be more suited for Raiding Scenarios? Either way MEU and MEU-SOCS are very capable formations and really are what you need today in an unstable world. MEU is basically the "Leatherman of Military tools" funny how the US army now has Brigade Combat Teams?
MEUs can pretty much do all of those things, for a full on amphibious assault in a Cold War that goes hot, my guess is they'd be using a full MEF for say the Retaking of Iceland, or depending on an intell a MEB (Brigade size force 1/3 the size of a MEF, and MEU is 1/3 the size of a MEB) while individual MEUs would as you said focus more of raiding and hot reinforcement.
The army does have BCTs but they'll never be as mobile or as effective without some serious retraining, the US Army's lack of a unified culture works against them in mixed/joint environments like that.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Having worked with US Army and the US Marines, I prefer the USMC on the basis of they are more like British Forces in that everything is done on a shoestring, and your logistics is never enough so you spend alot of time "liberating" things from more well stocked allies..... either that or buying it from ebay.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/12 22:15:30
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
I've been waiting for something like this to come along.
either that or buying it from ebay.