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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/21 23:30:51
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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The new FAQ is clear that an IC or WGPL that gets Outflank from joining a unit of Wolf Scouts cannot OBEL. However can an IC with Saga of the Hunter OBEL when he joins a unit of Wolf Scouts as he gets Outflank from the saga, not from joining the unit of Wolf Scouts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 00:07:30
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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BEL is not outflank. I don't see a reason why an IC gets to BEL cos he has outlflank, I don't think having outflank is the issue here, it looks to me like no behind enemy lines unless you are all scouts.
The unit can outflank and you have acute senses, there isn't much need to go easter egging for more.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 00:26:32
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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I don't see the reason why an IC that can outflank can take advantage of BEL because of this FAQ. I believe the ruling stands whether the IC can outflank or not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 02:03:38
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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Except the prohibition on OBEL is specifically linked to gaining the ability to Outflank per the previous FAQ question of at least one member of the unit having the ability, not if the IC has gained outflank due to Saga of the Hunter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am adding the FAQ verbatim;
Q: Can a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or Independent Character join squad of Wolf Scouts and benefit from the Outflank special rule because at least one model has the ability?
A: Yes.
Q: If so, do they roll to see where they enter play using the Wolf Scouts’ Behind Enemy Lines special rule or the normal Outflank special rule?
A: The normal Outflank special rule.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/22 02:45:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 10:50:27
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Nothing there states that you get OBEL from the unit; the fact that one has inherited outflank and the other just "has" outflank doesnt make a difference. They would still use the normal rules
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 15:39:20
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Does BEL have permission to apply to anything beyond the wolf scouts? I don't see it anywhere.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 15:40:28
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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Brother Ramses wrote:Except the prohibition on OBEL is specifically linked to gaining the ability to Outflank per the previous FAQ question of at least one member of the unit having the ability, not if the IC has gained outflank due to Saga of the Hunter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am adding the FAQ verbatim;
Q: Can a Wolf Guard Pack Leader or Independent Character join squad of Wolf Scouts and benefit from the Outflank special rule because at least one model has the ability?
A: Yes.
Q: If so, do they roll to see where they enter play using the Wolf Scouts’ Behind Enemy Lines special rule or the normal Outflank special rule?
A: The normal Outflank special rule.
Having the ability to Outflank does not confer the ability to Operate Behind Enemy Lines. These are two separate things as the FAQ makes clear.
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2500 pts
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 17:23:16
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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The rules for OBEL state that when the Wolf Scout unit outflanks, it uses OBEL. When an IC/WGPL joins a unit it becomes part of that unit for all intents an purposes.
The FAQ now tells us that if the IC/WGPL gains outflank from having joined the Wolf Scout unit because one member of that unit has the ability, then the IC can now outflank with them. However, if the IC gains outflank from that mechanic (one member of the unit having outflank), then the IC can only outflank normally, not OBEL.
The FAQ only applies to an IC/WGPL that has gained outflank by virtue of one member of the Wolf Scout unit having that ability. This is clear by the specific reference to the first question in the beginning of the second question with the verbiage,
"If so,...."
It in no way affects an IC that has gained outflank by having Saga of the Hunter.
When an IC that has gained outflank by having Saga of the Hunter joins a Wolf Scout unit, and when that unit chooses to outflank, it does so via OBEL.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 18:10:57
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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The way an IC joins a unit is different from the wolf guard's. So although you can use OBEL with a wolf guard joined to the scouts, you cannot do the same with an IC.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 20:48:28
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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And, again, we have shown how that conclusion is unsafe. All it is saying is that HAVING Outflank is nto sufficient to OBEL.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 23:50:53
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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copper.talos wrote:The way an IC joins a unit is different from the wolf guard's. So although you can use OBEL with a wolf guard joined to the scouts, you cannot do the same with an IC.
In this you are wrong.
nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again, we have shown how that conclusion is unsafe. All it is saying is that HAVING Outflank is nto sufficient to OBEL.
No it doesn't.
The FAQ shows that having Outflank conferred due to at least one member in the unit having Outflank is not sufficient to OBEL. The second question speficially refers to the condition set forth in the first question. It does not apply to an IC who has Outflank conferred via Saga of the Hunter.
I am not sure if you are just going to parrot your response over and over or if you are actually going to address how the FAQ is specifically worded.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/22 23:55:51
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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And any interest in engaging with you has been removed, again.
Have fun. I think it is clear that just having Outflank is not sufficient, you have made up your mind otherwise, and rational arguments arent sticking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/23 00:47:04
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Brother Ramses wrote:copper.talos wrote:The way an IC joins a unit is different from the wolf guard's. So although you can use OBEL with a wolf guard joined to the scouts, you cannot do the same with an IC.
In this you are wrong.
nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again, we have shown how that conclusion is unsafe. All it is saying is that HAVING Outflank is nto sufficient to OBEL.
No it doesn't.
The FAQ shows that having Outflank conferred due to at least one member in the unit having Outflank is not sufficient to OBEL. The second question speficially refers to the condition set forth in the first question. It does not apply to an IC who has Outflank conferred via Saga of the Hunter.
I am not sure if you are just going to parrot your response over and over or if you are actually going to address how the FAQ is specifically worded.
If a model that is now part of the unit, WG, is not able to use OBEL why should an attached IC?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/23 01:25:20
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Hmm I was wrong in my previous post. Now that I read the FAQ again, even the wolf guard would not be able to benefit from OBEL.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/23 01:25:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/23 13:06:19
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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nosferatu1001 wrote:And any interest in engaging with you has been removed, again.
Have fun. I think it is clear that just having Outflank is not sufficient, you have made up your mind otherwise, and rational arguments arent sticking.
If you had a rational argument that actually debated the points of the FAQ instead of just proclaiming absolutes without anything to back it up, then you are right, there is nothing to discuss with you.
liturgies of blood wrote: Brother Ramses wrote:copper.talos wrote:The way an IC joins a unit is different from the wolf guard's. So although you can use OBEL with a wolf guard joined to the scouts, you cannot do the same with an IC.
In this you are wrong.
nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again, we have shown how that conclusion is unsafe. All it is saying is that HAVING Outflank is nto sufficient to OBEL.
No it doesn't.
The FAQ shows that having Outflank conferred due to at least one member in the unit having Outflank is not sufficient to OBEL. The second question speficially refers to the condition set forth in the first question. It does not apply to an IC who has Outflank conferred via Saga of the Hunter.
I am not sure if you are just going to parrot your response over and over or if you are actually going to address how the FAQ is specifically worded.
If a model that is now part of the unit, WG, is not able to use OBEL why should an attached IC?
Because the FAQ now specifically addresses when it is a WGPL or IC gaining the benefit of Outflank by there being at least one model in the Wolf Scout unit, they can only Outflank normally. It does not apply when an IC gains Outflank by other means. If they wanted it to apply to an IC that gains Outflank via Saga of the Hunter, they should have not referred to the first question.
1. First question specifically tells you that an IC or WGPL that joins a Wolf Scout unit can Outflank due to one member of the unit having Outflank.
2. Second question tells you that if they gained Outflank due to the above mechanic, they cannot OBEL when they Outflank with the Wolf Scouts, just Outflank.
The second question/answer does not apply to an IC with Saga of the Hunter because it did not get Outflank under the conditions of the first question/answer.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/23 15:10:44
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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You are trying to claim there is a difference between them gaining Outflank from the unit and having Outflank inately. Please show where this difference in terms of ability is defined in rules
It isnt. THey are the same. So whether or not they have Outflank inately they only get to use the Outflank special rule.
No doubt you will simply claim this is not a rational argument again, so you can continue to not alter your opinion on it despite a lack of anyone agreeing with you.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/23 15:36:05
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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nosferatu1001 wrote:You are trying to claim there is a difference between them gaining Outflank from the unit and having Outflank inately. Please show where this difference in terms of ability is defined in rules
It isnt. THey are the same. So whether or not they have Outflank inately they only get to use the Outflank special rule.
No doubt you will simply claim this is not a rational argument again, so you can continue to not alter your opinion on it despite a lack of anyone agreeing with you.
I am not claiming the difference, the FAQ is making that distinction. The second question refers directly to an IC/WGPL obtaining the ability to Outflank through at least one member of the unit having that ability and that mechani only. You are extending the reach of the FAQ for some reason that is not supported by the RAW.
I ask you, how is the second question not directly referring to the game mechanic stated in the first question when it begins with a direct reference of,
"If so,...."?
Please clear that hurdle where it directly refers to the circumstances of an IC or WGPL gaining Outflank by virtue of at least one member of the Wolf Scout unit having Outflank and tell me how you are using that to encompass an IC gaining Outflank via Saga of the Hunter.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/23 16:06:00
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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No, it says the questions have a relation, not that there is a difference between having an ability inately vs gaining the ability. It is silent on that.
So, you cannot use the FAQ to prove there is a difference. Until you prove there IS a difference, no difference exists.
Prove there is, because the FAQ does not do so no matter how many times you say "if so"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/23 16:30:06
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it says the questions have a relation, not that there is a difference between having an ability inately vs gaining the ability. It is silent on that.
So, you cannot use the FAQ to prove there is a difference. Until you prove there IS a difference, no difference exists.
Prove there is, because the FAQ does not do so no matter how many times you say "if so"
It is absolutely telling you that there is a difference by specifically telling you that in the instance that a WGPL or IC gains Outflank by virtue of at least one member of the Wolf Scout unit having it, they cannot OBEL. The use of, "If so,..." tells you specifically the conditions of not being able to OBEL. It is the qualifier for the restriction that follows. If you remove that qualifier, then any instance of an IC or WGPL joining a unit of Wolf Scouts only allows Outflank and not OBEL. That qualifer sets the standard for the restriction, specifically the mechanic mentioned in the first question.
I don't need to differentiate between having an innate ability versus gaining an ability because the FAQ sets the parameters of the condtion to which the restriction applies. The FAQ could have been worded to quite simply to encompass all instances of Outflank, both as an innate ability or a gained one. Instead it focused soley on a gained ability by directly referring to the first question. Automatically Appended Next Post: And for the record, I am not saying, "If so,..". The FAQ uses that language and your just ignoring the implications it presents to argue your point.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/23 16:32:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/23 16:51:26
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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No, the FAQ question only asks about that one instance - a non-inate Outflank model. It does not, anywhere, state there is a difference between an inate and non-inate and how they are treated in the game.
I am fully aware that the FAQ uses "if so", and I am ignoring nothing. You are just blinded by it. I am poitning out what that actually means, not what you THINK it means, in this case. ALL it presents is a link to the prior situation in the question, it does NOT state that there is a difference between an outflank inate and non-inate unit joinign wolf scouts. It is entirely silent on any difference. As it is silent on the difference you have to prove there IS a difference, otherwise you are bound by the second answer *even though* it relates to the first situation.
Find ANYTHING in the FAQ which talks about a non-inate and an inate Outflanker IC. ANYTHING. You cannot find it, therefore your claim that it is creating a difference without a single comparator being made is flawed, and your conclusion is also flawed
There is, functionally, no difference between an IC with Outflank inately and one without, joined to a Scout squad. As there is no functional difference, you have no oppurtunity to argue that you do not also follow the second FAQ
Unless you come up with a new argument, one that hasnt been disproven, that will be my last take on this. I know what arguing with you on topics you have made your mind up on are like.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 05:11:52
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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nosferatu1001 wrote:No, the FAQ question only asks about that one instance - a non-inate Outflank model. It does not, anywhere, state there is a difference between an inate and non-inate and how they are treated in the game.
I am fully aware that the FAQ uses "if so", and I am ignoring nothing. You are just blinded by it. I am poitning out what that actually means, not what you THINK it means, in this case. ALL it presents is a link to the prior situation in the question, it does NOT state that there is a difference between an outflank inate and non-inate unit joinign wolf scouts. It is entirely silent on any difference. As it is silent on the difference you have to prove there IS a difference, otherwise you are bound by the second answer *even though* it relates to the first situation.
Find ANYTHING in the FAQ which talks about a non-inate and an inate Outflanker IC. ANYTHING. You cannot find it, therefore your claim that it is creating a difference without a single comparator being made is flawed, and your conclusion is also flawed
There is, functionally, no difference between an IC with Outflank inately and one without, joined to a Scout squad. As there is no functional difference, you have no oppurtunity to argue that you do not also follow the second FAQ
Unless you come up with a new argument, one that hasnt been disproven, that will be my last take on this. I know what arguing with you on topics you have made your mind up on are like.
The FAQ asks about that one instance and then refers to that one instance in setting the restriction. You have no RAW support to then extend that restriction to other instances. Please show me your RAW support to extend the restriction set by the FAQ beyond the scope of what is presented.
And nice attempt at asking to prove a negative. Since you are choosing to ignore the implications of, "If so,..." and how it specifically sets the conditions of restricting OBEL to an IC or WGPL that gained Outflank via one member of the Wolf Scout unit having that ability, you don't need to reply with your same tired crap.
You have refused to address the FAQ verbiage, but instead are challenging me to prove my point when I have three times now by specifically pointing out that the second question and answer is specific to the first. You continue to ignore the implications of the, "If so,..." statement. That just adds up to a bucket of fail on your part.
Enjoy your "absolute" opinion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 05:16:40
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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The Hive Mind
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You don't have to show where a restriction is extended.
The burden is on you BR to prove that BEL extends to any IC that natively has Outflank. It demonstrably does not extend to an IC that has to inherit outflank. That does not mean that that is the only possible case it does not extend.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 11:12:33
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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BR - "bucket of fail"
Brilliant way to ignore the point, again.
Have they stated there is a difference, anywhere, between an inate and an non-inate unit? No. therefore your contenton that there IS a difference has no basis in rules.
Prove there is a difference;that is not asking you to prove a negative. H0 is there is no difference, you now must prove H1.
Although, frankly, given your standard rudeness not entirely sure why I'm even asking that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 11:23:45
Subject: Re:SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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If we can watch the language and tone please people.
Thanks.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/24 19:04:40
Subject: SW: IC, WGPL, Wolf Scouts, and Outflank
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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BR - the problem with your argument is twofold.
First, they linked the two questions because it would be nonsensical otherwise. If a character with outflank joins a unit with outflank, of course they can outflank. No one is asking that question.
Second, just because someone gains outflank from joining means they can't use BEL doesn't mean if you gain outflank from another way that you can.
Logically, they state if X + A then not Y. You are trying to state if X + B then Y. It doesn't work.
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