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I am struggling to decide whether to mount Sammael on his Jetbike or in his Landspeeder. I know there are advantages to both, but I want to see what the majority view on Dakka is. Are there any DA players about who can confirm which is the more potent loadout? And why?

Last codex, you should have only taken the jetbike if you liked the model. The Landspeeder was the superior choice. This codex they improved the jetbike by giving him independent character, but not much else. Counter that with a 4++ for the landspeeder, it is the opinion of this Ravenwing player the Lanspeeder remains the better choice.

The problem is that the jetbike isn't that killy. A plasma cannon is nice, but it is situation specific and most MEQ players worth their weight, will spread out to minimize the damage. And his close combat capability is mediocre at best. It may be AP2 but he still only has 3 attacks at S4, not exactly a recipe for wiping out terminators. A new addition is that he will grant skilled rider to a squad he joins, but having said that, there are few situations when you don't want to be combat squading your basic ravenwing bike squads, so he will only be boosting three models, because Black knights already have skilled rider.

Now, the landspeeder, first and most importantly is imposing. It's visually bristling with guns. Why that is important is because he absorbs fire. The landspeeder draws more fire than the jtebike. I think it is a pychological thing. Yes it can die to a single lascannon but that is statistical fluke. So while he is getting hammered by missile launchers and lascannons your other forces are mopping house. His guns are nothing to sneeze at either, you have something like 88% chance of all 7 shots hitting. Yes please. S6 rending? I'll take that too. The number of vehicles I have killed with his assault cannon is beyond counting, as it is very easy to get to side and rear armour. ON THAT NOTE! his one weakness is his rear armour, but as long as you remember that fact you are ok. I have never lost him to a shot to his rear armour. Ever.

Humm, let's see:

Jetbike, plasma cannon, toughness 5, still gets to CC with regular initiative master-crafted AP 2 weapon, 5 attacks on the charge, 3+, 4++, eternal warrior, hit-and-run...

Or

AV 14/10 speeder with TLAC/TLHB, 4++, that can still get popped with a single shot.

I don't there's much of an arguement, jetbike is the way to go.

2 HP is a bad joke, jetbike all the way.

I'd much rather face the Land speeder version than the bike. The LS weapons all allow saves and I can just deep-strike stuff behind it for easy AV 10 shots; the 4++ wil leventually fail.

Meanwhile, the jetbike has a very cool plasma cannon that is rarely going to stray much given his high BS, EW to keep him going even against vindicator blasts, and can hide in a bike unit for wound-shifting.

Thanks for all the responses. Got a chance to really look at all the pros and cons. I think at this point I am leaning toward the Jetbike.

The other thing to keep in mind is CC. On the bike Sammael is a beast in CC.

If anything makes it into the Speeder in CC, it's almost assuredly toast if they've got krak grenades, meaning even a squad of guard vets will almost certainly kill it in CC.

How many players that have responded actually fielded the Land Speeder in a game? These all look like math-hammer responses, which can be useful but it should be joined with actual experience

I'd much rather face the Land speeder version than the bike. The LS weapons all allow saves and I can just deep-strike stuff behind it for easy AV 10 shots; the 4++ wil leventually fail.

Well it is volume of shots with the land speeder, and don't discount the rending, the Master on land speeder is my go to choice for land raider hunting. As for rear armour 10, one of my most frequent opponents is a drop podding grey hunter army and I will run him down a board edge with his rear armour facing off the table. soaking up long fang missile spam all the while. To do some mathammer It will take an average of 36 missile shots to kill him. Where the jetbike can be killed with 9. Oh and for the record a lascannon has a 5% chance of blowing him up with a single shot. 95% chance that he will live

The other thing to keep in mind is CC. On the bike Sammael is a beast in CC.

That has not been my experience at all, and thats precisely why I don't take him. It takes him like three turns just to hack through a guard squad in close combat. Yes it is AP2 now, but still...I am not sending him anywhere near terminators. If they have storm shields (Who doesn't take them?), then the AP2 is of marginal value and he is one of the few units in the game where their thunder hammers' concussive effect will actually be of use.

It takes most characters 3-4 turns to kill 10 models, ideally though you break them on the first turn after killing 3 of them and forcing them to test on Ld5 after they do nothing to you and run them down.

But then, putting a character like Sammael into a guard squad is a waste in the first place when a three tac marines will do the same job just as well. That's just not a task you put a character like Sammael towards.

I'm not saying Sammael is the #1 greatest CC character ever, but between T5, a solid invul, and an AP2 weapon that strikes at I5, and all the speed in the world, he's pretty damn good.

Not everything with a 2+sv is sporting a Storm Shield either. Chaos termi's do not, Oblits do not, most characters do not, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It takes most characters 3-4 turns to kill 10 models, ideally though you break them on the first turn after killing 3 of them and forcing them to test on Ld5 after they do nothing to you and run them down.

But then, putting a character like Sammael into a guard squad is a waste in the first place when a three tac marines will do the same job just as well. That's just not a task you put a character like Sammael towards.

I'm not saying Sammael is the #1 greatest CC character ever, but between T5, a solid invul, and an AP2 weapon that strikes at I5, and all the speed in the world, he's pretty damn good.

Not everything with a 2+sv is sporting a Storm Shield either. Chaos termi's do not, Oblits do not, most characters do not, etc.

Well, Belial and Azrael seem to just annihilate squads. Now granted they wound on 2+. But maybe that is why I am so prejudiced against the jetbike. At 200 points I expect 200 point character destruction, but he is as powerful as a 90 point company master, just on a bike with a plasma cannon. As for sending him against guard. What else can he do? He does have krak grenades but one S6 attack isn't a recipe for much destruction. On top of that I play pure ravenwing, so I don't have tac marines to throw at guardsmen. So i just had him attack guardsmen which he doesn't do very well. You can attach him to a black knight squad, but the destructive output is already so high for them that he wont contribute that much more. A chaplain or libby with divination would do far more. You could put him with normal bikes, but they should be spending most of their time avoiding close combat, so on his own seems the best use of him, but you have to hide him because he can't soak up/be immune to firepower like the speeder can

So in conclusion! The landspeeder fits better with a ravenwing army, because he lends heavy armour to a glass hammer style army. And he lays down very reliable firepower. I realize I did the math wrong. its a 2.5% chance for a lascannon to one shot the Speeder. its a 5% chance for a dark lance.

Man Volkov's points seem pretty strong, I'm starting a DA army and will probably go with the landspeeder myself.

If I want a cc hammer unit of bikes I'll just go with some black knights.

It's all fun and games until a couple Necron Warriors glance poor Sammy out of the sky. I used to run the Speeder up until that lovely little change.

Volkov wrote:Well, Belial and Azrael seem to just annihilate squads.

To be honest, if the best things these guys have to do is kill guardsmen, they're not really being put into optimal targets as you don't need ~200ish point characters for when 60pts of marines will do the same thing.

That said, Azrael isn't T5 with a stupendous amount of mobility or a plasma cannon however. Belial isn't stupendously killy either, even with twin LC's and a charge, he's killing 3 guardsmen on average, and of course unless given a TH/SS, he's not doing much to 2+sv units and if he is then he's not doing much to guardsmen either. Sammael is going to have a much easier time engaging Deathwing type targets than Belial generally will for example.

Now granted they wound on 2+. But maybe that is why I am so prejudiced against the jetbike. At 200 points I expect 200 point character destruction, but he is as powerful as a 90 point company master, just on a bike with a plasma cannon.

That's the kicker, he's got a ton of mobility with extra resilience, and a plasma cannon with very little scatter, and he's immune to Instant Death. Dump the plasma cannon into a unit, and clean up with an assault, between the two phases he's likely to do more than Belial or Azrael given a half decent shot with the plasma cannon.

As for sending him against guard. What else can he do? He does have krak grenades but one S6 attack isn't a recipe for much destruction. On top of that I play pure ravenwing, so I don't have tac marines to throw at guardsmen. So i just had him attack guardsmen which he doesn't do very well.

That's a situation where he just doesn't have an optimal use, not every unit is always at its most useful all the time, just as say, a Leman Russ with a battlecannon is great at engaging MEQ's in the open, but isn't particularly great at engaging AV13 tanks.

You can attach him to a black knight squad, but the destructive output is already so high for them that he wont contribute that much more.

Depends on the range and target really. Against a unit in cover the extra PC to add on top of the PT's would likely be appreciated.

So in conclusion! The landspeeder fits better with a ravenwing army, because he lends heavy armour to a glass hammer style army. And he lays down very reliable firepower. I realize I did the math wrong. its a 2.5% chance for a lascannon to one shot the Speeder. its a 5% chance for a dark lance.

It's not the Lascannons you really need to be worried about killing it with one shot but rather HP loss (especially after that first one goes down, all you need is one glance), as well as still popular cheap melta and the fact that anything with krak grenades will almost assuredly kill it in CC

To be honest, if the best things these guys have to do is kill guardsmen, they're not really being put into optimal targets as you don't need ~200ish point characters for when 60pts of marines will do the same thing.

Well that is one of the strength of guard lists. There is no optimal target alot of the time. Meat shield guardsmen protecting the juicy tank. You have to mow the lawn to get at the weeds so to speak. But that was merely an example of Sammaels lackluster performance against guardsmen.

That's the kicker, he's got a ton of mobility with extra resilience, and a plasma cannon with very little scatter, and he's immune to Instant Death. Dump the plasma cannon into a unit, and clean up with an assault, between the two phases he's likely to do more than Belial or Azrael given a half decent shot with the plasma cannon.

Well, in order to take full use of that mobility he can't be with another squad, because he won't be able to turbo-boost the extra 12" for a jetbike or D6 for his warlord trait. And if you have him in a squad they are only 6" a turn faster than a transport.

That's a situation where he just doesn't have an optimal use, not every unit is always at its most useful all the time, just as say, a Leman Russ with a battlecannon is great at engaging MEQ's in the open, but isn't particularly great at engaging AV13 tanks.

Well thats why the speeder I feel is better. There are very few things the speeder cannot engage with a reasonable chance of success. With the BS5 twin-linked assault cannon you have like a 66% chance of rending something which really opens up your ability to take on any target it the game. Just last night my master immobilized a stormraven. It took two turns of shooting, and I didn't kill it but I effectively removed it from the game. Throw in a BS5 twin linked heavy bolter and you have a very flexible platform.

Depends on the range and target really. Against a unit in cover the extra PC to add on top of the PT's would likely be appreciated.

True, but I run a librarian with auspex, with my knights. I think he is 90 points? But that librarian turns them into death machines. The master in that squad becomes way overkill. But if you did not run a librarian I could see you may need help in certain situations

It's not the Lascannons you really need to be worried about killing it with one shot but rather HP loss (especially after that first one goes down, all you need is one glance), as well as still popular cheap melta and the fact that anything with krak grenades will almost assuredly kill it in CC

Well thats true indeed, all of the 6th edition deaths of my master have been from being glanced to death, but , the jetbike has the same shortcoming with his wounds. The difference being a heck of a lot less weapons are capable of hurting armour 14

Now don't misunderstand I am not saying the Jetbikes sucks, far from it. I am saying that when directly compared the speeder in my opinion is a better choice.

Jetbike all the way.

The speeder is only 2HP and rear armor 10, that means anything in combat will pop it. Or a drop pod assault with 10 bolters rapid firing behind him.

yeah he has a 4++ but, so does his bike, which can join a unit fire a plasma cannon, snap fire a TL storm bolter and fight in combat.

He can only fire one weapon on his jetbike, so how is he snap-firing the Storm Bolter? Unless you're referring to Overwatch.

Easily both versions are winners, either way you go. I think it just boils down to preferance and your local meta.

For me I would go the jetbike. The model is cool, I don't have to convert a model, and I like all the options of strategy that come with it, plus I think it's more durable than the land speeder version.

Garukadon wrote:
Easily both versions are winners, either way you go. I think it just boils down to preferance and your local meta.

For me I would go the jetbike. The model is cool, I don't have to convert a model, and I like all the options of strategy that come with it, plus I think it's more durable than the land speeder version.

The ravenwing battleforce comes with all the parts to make a Master in landspeeder