Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

A few days back I watch Killing Us Softly 3 & 4 (1-3 is for historical reference, they're fairly similar) which is essentially a lecture in how society in western countries (well, I imagine it does apply to just about any society centred around modern consumerism, so just about any non-islamic and non-developing countries) teaches us to view women. The lecture itself is about commercials, but I find it applies to just about everything since the pattern is repeating in oh-so-many places.

Essentially, I can't help but view this whole thread through that lens. I feel inclined to say "no, it's not Warhammer that's touted as a man/boy game". Essentially when we're taught from a very early age and constantly bombarded with the message that aggressive and outspoken is male and timid is female, well Warhammer marketing may just be a victim of what is perceived as the norm.
Women may be a fairly substantial audience for the game if the macho stamp is removed - or conversely if public opinion is shifted so that women are allowed to be macho as part of their femininity.

Regardless, I think the subject of this thread has long since veered off track

 Mahtamori wrote:
A few days back I watch Killing Us Softly 3 & 4 (1-3 is for historical reference, they're fairly similar) which is essentially a lecture in how society in western countries (well, I imagine it does apply to just about any society centred around modern consumerism, so just about any non-islamic and non-developing countries) teaches us to view women. The lecture itself is about commercials, but I find it applies to just about everything since the pattern is repeating in oh-so-many places.

Essentially, I can't help but view this whole thread through that lens. I feel inclined to say "no, it's not Warhammer that's touted as a man/boy game". Essentially when we're taught from a very early age and constantly bombarded with the message that aggressive and outspoken is male and timid is female, well Warhammer marketing may just be a victim of what is perceived as the norm.
Women may be a fairly substantial audience for the game if the macho stamp is removed - or conversely if public opinion is shifted so that women are allowed to be macho as part of their femininity.

Regardless, I think the subject of this thread has long since veered off track

While I certainly agree, I think the mods would like us to stay away from such a discussion.

So here is my thought:

It would seem that there is no male or female agonized decision to play a table top wargame, nor in choosing an army. There probably isn't some underlying "female mystique" that drives them toward one army or another, just as it is doubtful that any male player worries whether or not his army choice will be manly enough, we like what we like for our own reasons and that's all there is to it. It all boils down to two things: 1. That we get over the fear of being perceived as "nerdy", juvenile, or odd for doing what we like to do. 2. That we play fairly with one another according to the rules of the game and the principle of good sportsmanship, regardless of being male, female, or a ten-legged hermaphroditic swamp worm from Titan.

Sometimes I wonder if Gender Studies has unneccessarily complicated our thoughts on things, concentrating so much on the minutiae that we loose sight of the bigger picture that is living with each other on this little planet.

Do you really need to assign why someone likes one brand of peanut butter over another based on sex?

xraytango wrote:

Do you really need to assign why someone likes one brand of peanut butter over another based on sex?

Trying so hard not to make a joke with that last sentence but i might get in trouble with the mods if i do . I think it's actually worse than you probably think.

Well that would probably take us far, too far off topic, and degrade the discussion. Thank you for your self-control.

no special treatment from me ill let ya know if i think ya need to work on painting also i like to paint and im not a girl so >.> its not just a girl thing tho i like to convert things more then paint but both fun to me .

Well nice video my wife of 26 years yes we are older lol. Never gamed then wanted to paint thats what got her in the door. Now she has painted and built over 4000 points of space marines. Has started a chaos army and is considering fantasy army. You are well spoken and it would be cool to see some of your painted models. Have you played many games yet?

@warhammernut: What fantasy armies is your wife considering? There are quite a few armies that look really nice right now like vampire counts. I hear the coven throne/mortis engine model is really nice looking and the coven throne is bedecked with like 3 vampire women so maybe she'd prefer to paint that.

 kwah wrote:
no special treatment from me ill let ya know if i think ya need to work on painting also i like to paint and im not a girl so >.> its not just a girl thing tho i like to convert things more then paint but both fun to me .

Yep. Painting is not a guy thing or a girl thing. It's more of a warhammer thing. Personally I hate to pant, but I like to assemble. I try to get to my friends models before he dose and assemble them that way I play a role in what will end up being a rather impressive model.

My wife is considering lizardmen, Ogeres, or orcs and Goblins. My Army is skaven and I will be doing a Vampire counts army eventually. The mortis engine is a phenominal model. There is an article in the white dwarf on how to paint it in three parts.

Gotta love that "lightbulb" learning has occurred moment when something turns out to be completely different then you thought it was ja? Otherwise I agree with Melissia.

 Melissia wrote:
Also, to discuss the video itself... I like your voice, accent, and general style of speaking; you speak with confidence and clarity that many youtubers seem to be incapable of, making your discussion very nice to listen to, and I didn't once have to rewind to try to figure out what you had just said.

So bravo to you on that I think a video series further discussing what you like about warhammer, your various experiences, etc would be quite nice to have, if you have the time to produce them!

As to picking an army it's always been about fluff and telling a story for me. My first army... sorta when I was into the game as a kid was Necrons. (this is 3E mind you) and while people told me they were bland, the mystery, the souless killing machines, etc really appealed to me for some reason. Maybe I was in a goth phase or something. Then as time went on and I just read the books I came to truly appreciate the Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle, the unsung heroes of humanity, especially the former, the whole line about mere mortals taking on demons and other various creatures that they normally send in super human demigods to handle with nothing but a flashlight, the cardboard armor, and a set of brass ones.

Sisters I admired for flame based weaponry and intense, dedicated faith. Sure they have nicer toys for the basic trooper in the field then the guard, but these too are mortals stepping up against a grimdark universe with faith, a flamer and a little back up. Then Space Marines because I realized I could start a 2000 point army dirt cheap with DV, and let's face it for all the gak they're given... SM are cool, and now I've come full circle back to Necrons, who have seemed to change a little since I was away... they speak now for one.

All told there's something in this hobby for everyone I think!

With me fluff helped but playstyle is a bigger deal. I liked imperial guard because that's what i played in 'dawn of war: winter assault' and the idea of explosions everywhere appealed to me and somewhat the tanks.

With skaven i once again played mark of chaos and other than empire they appealed to me the most (though that game only had like 4 factions and i never got the expansion). With skaven i'm more fond of the way they talk, the dangerous arcane steampunk conquering the world 'pinky and the brain' feel, the betrayal and treachery and a couple other things. Strangely enough i find i only really like skryre (arcane steampunk war machines) and pestilens (plague monks who are basically nurgle rats without nurgle). That said clan moulder's hellpit abominations are cool but that's the only thing they have i enjoy. Then there's clan eshin which is cool but their assassins aren't fantastic and their units aren't the best things the skaven have. I'm still thinking of doing that 40-50 night runner with warp grinder team loadout though. I still think the basic night runners models are way outdated and ugly but then so are plague censers and many of the heroes (but not special characters) if you've had the chance to buy them and see them first hand. Hopefully the other greater clans like eshin (assassins and ninjas) and clan moulder (monsters bred for battle) become more interesting in the future. The odd thing about skaven is their monsters are basically existing monsters and beasts with rat parts added to them and the arcane war machines are often just other races' war machines with warpstone added to them in some way (making them more dangerous). It's not entirely true but those are two big things skaven seem to do.

It's not really the idea that the armies i choose are very horde-like. Oddly enough most of the armies i tend to like just do hordes really well like vampire counts but i like them for the necromancy and vampiric part. I don't entirely know why horde armies seem to be the factions i choose with warhammer since i don't really do that in anything else. The sides i usually choose seem to at least not be that good at melee or at least have crappy WS. At least in 40k if i get back into it i think i'll do dark eldar.

Though this may sound odd i actually hate the battles skaven and imperial guard seem to have in their fluff.

Skaven seem to not lose much ground if any but they haven't done anything big in a long while. The last time they did anything sorta big was when they had a unified attack against nuln and they only took out half the city after a surprise attack from the sewers. I know it's a big city and all but it's still not altdorf and it still ended badly. I mean orcs & goblins have animosity but one of their leaders took out 3 huge imperial provinces and i think also killed the emperor. The skaven have killed plenty of heroes but most of the damage they do seems to be in the way of plagues before some BS plot armor or similar ends up saving some good guys (like the lizardmen and high elf battles they fought). They kill nagash but his hand crawls away, they nearly destroy the empire through plagues during a weak time but mandred rallies them together even if they do get to assassinate him and ruin the empire and they kill sigmar's reincarnated form or something. I suppose i just wish skaven could actually win a battle with their armies. They are basically the nids and orcs of 40k except instead of good melee they have good shooting. Nobody really knows much about skaven (because they use magic to hide themselves) as far as the other factions are concerned but maybe that's because they don't care :(. If they were better known by anything else besides nagash, dwarfs and possibly orcs and goblins the other factions might be harder on them esp. during skaven civil wars. Then again skaven do reproduce about as fast as the orks of 40k and this is without the use of spores from their dead like orks have.

Then there's the imperial guard who have fun tanks but are basically the punching bags of 40k no matter what anybody says. In their codex they lose a lot of battles and never seem to have won against the tau. They also only seem to kill eldar, cultists, traitor guard and orks well whereas everything else tends to own them in the fluff almost all the time. It's kind of depressing really. Then again maybe i just haven't read enough of the fluff.

First, really good video, you speak clearly, you make sense, you're nice to listen to, and you make good points.

Secondly, I think many people are surprised by women being into 40K, because the whole game, being centred around war, violence, and some rather disturbing background material, doesn't fit stereotypical ideals of what women like. I find it very refreshing to see female 40K players, probably because I get on better with females than males, and also because it's such a rare sight.

On the other hand, men can be very patronizing towards female hobbyists, telling them that even their worst models are good, simply to avoid scaring them off (which can have the opposite results).

Anyway, nice to see another girl in our ranks, and may your hobby time be fruitful and enjoyable!

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Basically what I'm asking is, do people over there tend to play in GW stores, at home, independent stores, clubs, etc.?Everywhere seems to be different and I wonder if that has something to do with women joining the hobby. For example, in areas where most playing happens in stores, there will naturally be a higher "barrier" for women to join (for example, when you looked in the window and went "oh boy, I wasn't expecting this") But for areas where people play at home, I could see the "barrier" for women to start playing being much easier. You're with people you know, and there's a much lower chance of running into wierd or awkward moments than if you played in a store. It'd be no different than showing up and playing a game of monopoly essentially.

Secondly, does the game seem to be growing or shrinking in playerbase over there? Over here, we've been seeing a ton of new players with 6th. To keep this one on topic, do you see any chance of more women joining the hobby anytime soon, or do you see yourself as a "rare" occurrence? Guys can sit here and argue whether more women will start playing back and forth all day, but I'm interested to hear a viewpoint from a woman who is in the hobby and knows what it's like.

I don't know the ratio of people playing at a store and not but from my experience: I know for a fact that some of the staff in my local GW store gather up their friends and play after hours but that's essentially the same thing as playing at a club. Also about an hour away there's independent retailer and he has lots of battleboards and there are people playing there all the time. Here in Sweden there aren't that many GW stores and thus I'm gonna guess that most people play the game at a local "clubhouse"(in lack of a better word) or at home. I myself mostly play at home and my friends come here cause for me it's easier since I have the battleboard and all of the terrain and it would be a challenge to carry all that with me.
I don't think it's a higher barrier for girls entering a store and wishing to learn/play the game, at least where I live - they play quite a lot of introduction games and I have seen some girls there from time to time. The staff in my local store are also very nice and utterly professional. Also walking into that store your usually not stared at like a rare collectors item since there's two girls on the staff and it makes for a more neutral gaming experience

I don't go to the store quite so I'm not sure how the playerbase looked from the beginning so I can't really answer that question.
As for increase in women. Yes, I think it might be possible. Today, as compared with like 10years ago it seems to be more okay to be a bit nerdy. For example when I first started playing WoW I never came across another girl playing the game but now I have met tons of girls that play or have played. If the general acceptance towards nerdy hobbies keeps increasing then I think it might be fair to say that in a few years more girls will have entered the hobby. I for one hope so since I'm trying to convince all my friends (girls) that if they'd just try it and stop thinking that it's all nerdy and weird they'd really like it since it's a fun hobby!

Warhammerlady wrote:
I myself mostly play at home and my friends come here cause for me it's easier since I have the battleboard and all of the terrain and it would be a challenge to carry all that with me.

Heh. You're the me of my group.

Edited by Manchu

Thanks for the answers warhammerlady!

I haven't watched it myself, being almost 100 minutes long, but "Gamers on Games" has just released a video of an online-stream-discussion on "Women in Gaming":

Gamers on Games wrote:Gamers on Games has a long discussion with various geek influencials about women in gaming and geekdom.

Panelists include :
Anja Keister (d20 burlesque)
Zoe & Wanda (RetroGamerGirls)
Damian Charpentier (Minmax Games / Warpaint Miniatures)
Kelly & Madalyn (Double Exposure conventions)

This 90 minute discussion covers topics across the geek and gaming spectrum. We hope this really helps the gaming community as a whole.

Well this was interesting. I do have to say that i have never seen Lizardmen as girly(say you 7-8ft tall carnivorous, heavily armed lizards). Maybe wood elves but even then..........

Well good to hear from you warhammer girl and thanks.

PS i will be checking out your gallery images

Well I've seen this thread for a while and wasn't really sure if I should take a peek. But I have, and I've watched the video, so now I ought to comment I suppose.

The video: pretty good all round. I did have a small issue regarding how loud you spoke - for the most part it was audible and then you'd get quieter for a bit... then return to normal level. Also your accent made a few bits of the video slightly hard to understand but that's a language barrier so it's a tad moot

To your points: It was pleasant to here how your perception changed from one experience and how it removed the general image you saw of the hobby. I wish my work colleagues would do that >_>" (My IT Manager, at time of writing, thought you can swap models about like Pokemon cards. The head of Finance thought it was all like Top Trumps. Honestly...) Anyway, I did enjoy your opinion and I fully respect it, as many should. The comment on which armies you took are reasonable - personally I've not heard of the "which armies are more appealing to female gamers" thing so the whole Lizardmen thing went over my head; but I can see what people meant.

On the whole at least you recognize the main issue at hand with the whole female attention in 40k, which TBH I've not had the opportunity to experience. Because female gamers are very rare for the most part, your average male gamer would be in somewhat shock and awe at the mere spectical of a girl walking into the FLGS and asking to buy models. I've read before of dakka member's partner's visiting their local store and getting mixed reactions from the players in-store - from creepy looks to lusty friendly conversations.


... That's a wall of text. OK, TL: DR - nice video, can be improved on for overall sound in minor areas. Points were nicely made and nothing of value was lost. And your painting is pretty good, I'll give you that

I watched the whole Gamers on Games video: It basically comes down to common sense, treat others how you'd like to be treated, women as rare as they may seem are not. We all don't like being judged, and we all belong in the same place no matter who you are.

Welcome them regardless of differences.

Stand up for those who are discriminated against, have zero tolerance for derogatory language and be intelligent enough to know what it is, and when to speak up.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
I watched the whole Gamers on Games video: It basically comes down to common sense, treat others how you'd like to be treated, women as rare as they may seem are not. We all don't like being judged, and we all belong in the same place no matter who you are.

Ask wargamers how they feel about girl gamers: Get "Equality, kindness, no judgement"

Ask wargamers how they feel about fratboys: "D-Bags! Tools! Jerks!"

Interesting.

That is because "girls" are roughly half the population, and they have no real choice in the matter about being girls (for the sake of this convo, let's avoid any discussion of transgender politics and the like, 'k?), while "fratboys" choose to be douchebags.

They can't help but be male, but they can damn sure help how they present themselves to the rest of the world. "Fratboy" is not a term that is used to define any male who happens to be a member of a fraternity, it is a term used to describe a male who may belong to a fraternity and who behaves in a particular manner.

 Psienesis wrote:
"Fratboy" is not a term that is used to define any male who happens to be a member of a fraternity, it is a term used to describe a male who may belong to a fraternity and who behaves in a particular manner.

That's like saying "Oh, chicks are so stupid and annoying. But you're a girl, It's different. You're not a chick." It is the terminology used that is equally inappropriate, whether intentional or not.

The negative connotation and instant judgement is there, and the wording is poor. Lumping in an entire demographic with one's stereotype of "who is douchey usually" is inappropriate.

Personally speaking, I'm a judgmental bastard. I could get to know people as individuals and find reasons to hate them, but I find that lumping them into easily-identified categories based on their observed behaviors is much faster and easier. (I am also a lazy bastard.)

If you walk into my FLGS going like "Chicks, amirite, brahs? Yo, brahs, toss the Robinator a brewski. Amirite, brahs?" and such... then, yeah, I'm going to assume you fit into the "fratboy" stereotype, and not have anything to do with you, I don't care how many plastic toy soldiers you're carrying, because in my estimation (which, in my life, is the only estimation that matters) you're a worthless lump of flesh.

Just wearing a sports jersey or having a high-and-tight (while not being active duty military) is not enough. That's externals... book covers, in other words. But if you comport yourself as a "fratboy" in public spaces, I'll treat you like one, which means I will treat you as if you were beneath my contempt.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 DemetriDominov wrote:
I watched the whole Gamers on Games video: It basically comes down to common sense, treat others how you'd like to be treated, women as rare as they may seem are not. We all don't like being judged, and we all belong in the same place no matter who you are.

Ask wargamers how they feel about girl gamers: Get "Equality, kindness, no judgement"

Ask wargamers how they feel about fratboys: "D-Bags! Tools! Jerks!"

Interesting.

Generalization such as this is the last lesson. Avoid it. I'm a wargamer and I hold all to the standards of women because I hold the same standards for all.

As for you Psienesis, I'm not even going to attempt to broach that belief.

 Psienesis wrote:

If you walk into my FLGS going like "Chicks, amirite, brahs? Yo, brahs, toss the Robinator a brewski. Amirite, brahs?" and such... then, yeah, I'm going to assume you fit into the "fratboy" stereotype, and not have anything to do with you. Because in my estimation you're a worthless lump of flesh.

If you comport yourself as a "fratboy" in public spaces, I'll treat you like one, which means I will treat you as if you were beneath my contempt.

So instead of judging by someone's cover, you judge them by the plot synopsis on the back.

Interesting. Guess it's a bad time to confess that I'm the frattiest bro to ever bro in his frat, then.

Edit: I'd hate to derail this thread though; thank you for your honesty and moving on.

I think its weird what attracts people to this hobby in the first place. I don't think it matters if you are male or female.

For me its more of an escape from what can be a mundane reality, not to say i think my life is boring or hate my life, quite the opposite.
Its more about that release from the everyday, escapism.
We all do it, we just have different forms of achieving it.

Women will always be a minority for our hobby. Your video expressed why, getting through that nerd barrier, peer pressure from friends when you are young, not wanting to be labeled as being different or even picked on/bullied because of it.
I actually think peer pressure in this case is worse for women than it is guys and therefore the willingness to accept or be intrigued by something that isnt the everyday is harder to get over/around.

Great vid, its always interesting to hear other people's perspective on things.

I have had two defining experiences with girls and "nerd-dom" one was when I started 1/87th scale model-railroading (I still laugh at people moaning about hard see tiny details) when my mom purchased 280 little people "for me" and then painted half of them over a month. The best part of this is that Mom is a vastly better painter than me (at super small scales anyway) but only likes doing 1/87th figures and buildings to unbelievably high quality.

The other case was a couple of the girls at my paintball club, they are good - very good - they both can hold down a central position on their own with some of the cheapest guns on the market. Its a bit scary actually...

Though both these cases where off topic, the similarity everyone cites as being defining features of "nerdy" girls are there, excellence, they take time to be good at what they do.