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Can't see why a character being gay or whatever would be an issue, they're just plastic/metal guys and girls on a table, I'm gonna fugde my armour save and get them all killed regardless. Seroiusly tank shells and laser fire don't care which way you take it (or give it )

Now that I think about it I don't think I've ran across a single game that mentions this sort of thing, Hell I own the Anima Tactics rulebook which has tons of pointless tidbits about the characters, even including Morrigans vital statistics, yet nothing about sexual orientation.

P.s. its 110-60-90....

 Rolt wrote:
Now that I think about it I don't think I've ran across a single game that mentions this sort of thing, Hell I own the Anima Tactics rulebook which has tons of pointless tidbits about the characters, even including Morrigans vital statistics, yet nothing about sexual orientation.

Some of the public relations and customer service people - most anyone in any position of authority, really - that I know have big issues with liability. They go out of their way to avoid anything that could be misconstrued as being insensitive or defamatory to homosexuals, minorities, babies, the differently abled, the color red, etc.

It's probably the same thing.

Just don't talk about it. We don't want any problems.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually I could say Space Marines, period, really, given how Space Marines reproduce they're basically a male-only species, much like the Asari in Mass Effect are female-only.

But that does not automatically make them homosexual. Space Marines increase their numbers by grafting, the same way orchard farmers propagate some varieties of fruit tree. This does not mean that a Space Marine is gay, just as a lesbian isn't automatically bisexual if she uses IVF to get pregnant.

A person's sexuality is defined by their romantic or sexual attraction to others, no more and no less.

 Dentry wrote:
Just don't talk about it. We don't want any problems.

Yeah, but even by not talkingabout it, you're causing problems by marginalizing the minority. So it's better to man up, as it were, and face the music-- and just plain learn to write better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlexHolker wrote:
But that does not automatically make them homosexual.

I am not going to be able to respond to this without posting something tasteless.

About Space Marines, I mean.

Suffice it to say, don't think too deeply on the method of Astartes reproduction.

 Melissia wrote:

 Dentry wrote:
Just don't talk about it. We don't want any problems.

Yeah, but even by not talkingabout it, you're causing problems by marginalizing the minority. So it's better to man up, as it were, and face the music-- and just plain learn to write better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlexHolker wrote:
But that does not automatically make them homosexual.

I am not going to be able to respond to this without posting something tasteless.

About Space Marines, I mean.

Suffice it to say, don't think too deeply on the method of Astartes reproduction.

Psssh, nothing gay about having a young man receive the "gift" of a senior Marine's "gene seed" from his "glands".

It's a beautiful thing...

Too much? Probably too much.

Wouldn't have a problem at all. Sexual preference isn't why I read a story, or use a gaming character.
How many of us went "YES!!!! But is he gay?!?!" after Luke blew up the Death Star? It doesn't matter.
One of the stories I caught on a podcast had the main character as Lesbian starship Captain It made 0%
difference to the story. I'm thinking it's time for us to move on over this issue,IMHO. Unless someone is
forcing you to do things you don't want to, I don't see a problem. If it bothers you, don't read it/play that
character.
/

Commander Shepard from Mass Effect. We don't find out till the third game in the series that their gay with zero story impact. ...Or was that just my Shepard?

...Stupid smexy Kaidan.

Is the character or story interesting or at least useful in game. If the answers yes I would read about or use the character. If the answers yes then I will read / play if the answer is no I would not. Sexuality wouldn't really be a factor to me.

I was just taking a friendly jab at the boys in blue (Ultramarines). There is nothing gay about Space Marines imho. If anything they lose any of those tendencies either way.

Emperor’s Children on the other hand...

 Breotan wrote:
Lots of people play Dark Angels.

Awww... I should have known someone would beat me to the punch, though I would have said Blood Angels.

To be honest, I don't generally think a whole lot about the sexuality of my sci-fi characters unless it's specifically part of the story.

To the OP's question:

Yes. Sure.

 Melissia wrote:

 Dentry wrote:
Just don't talk about it. We don't want any problems.

Yeah, but even by not talkingabout it, you're causing problems by marginalizing the minority. So it's better to man up, as it were, and face the music-- and just plain learn to write better.

Agreed. But then we run into the issue that characters are not written (insert x attribute) enough .

I'm not speaking on frequency, rather on levels of -ness (be it blackness, whiteness, gayness, straightness, dinosaurness, etc).

Sadly, you're earlier example of the female Guard trooper who saves her lover will be seen by some as not personifying the culture of homsexuality, and thus being described as 'thin' character wise. The people leveling these complaints will be heterosexual, homosexual, LGBTQ allies, and homophobes.

What you, I, or the gaming community in general see as a well wrtiten character with minimal backstory refering to sexual tendencies will be toted by others as an example of a failure and the result of a publisher/author/public afraid of openly and blatantly gay characters. A similar scenario of the 'Twinkie' Asian character or the 'Oreo' black character railed upon in the blogosphere from time to time.



'Writing them better' is a wonderful notion. But know that many authors would rather avoid it entirely than offend someone.

Which is really just a cop-out. Writing bland, monotonous, homogeneous characters just to avoid offending someone will end up offending everyone.

Would it change their stats on the tabletop? Probably not. What difference does fluff make? None really, I can choose to ignore it and it doesn't change the way my dice roll (poorly BTW).

 Melissia wrote:
Which is really just a cop-out. Writing bland, monotonous, homogeneous characters just to avoid offending someone will end up offending everyone.

Not what I said. At all.

Writing characters that are homosexual only in passing, as per your example, is just as likely to receive those criticisms I stated as the 'bland, monotonous, homogenous' characters you refer to.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
Sadly, you're earlier example of the female Guard trooper who saves her lover will be seen by some as not personifying the culture of homsexuality, and thus being described as 'thin' character wise. The people leveling these complaints will be heterosexual, homosexual, LGBTQ allies, and homophobes.

Then these people are bigots. A person's sexuality is a preference, not a way of life. It's like complaining if an African-American character had a decent home life out in the suburbs, because it doesn't personify the culture of African-Americans.

 gunslingerpro wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Which is really just a cop-out. Writing bland, monotonous, homogeneous characters just to avoid offending someone will end up offending everyone.

Not what I said. At all.

Writing characters that are homosexual only in passing, as per your example, is just as likely to receive those criticisms I stated as the 'bland, monotonous, homogenous' characters you refer to.

I strongly disagree with such defeatist sentiments.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 gunslingerpro wrote:
Sadly, you're earlier example of the female Guard trooper who saves her lover will be seen by some as not personifying the culture of homsexuality, and thus being described as 'thin' character wise. The people leveling these complaints will be heterosexual, homosexual, LGBTQ allies, and homophobes.

Then these people are bigots. A person's sexuality is a preference, not a way of life. It's like complaining if an African-American character had a decent home life out in the suburbs, because it doesn't personify the culture of African-Americans.

Precisely. But can you level that popular African American directors are the ones leveling such claims? Spike Lee was famous for it in his early years.

Hell, Tyler Perry had such claims leveled against him by members of the African American community!


Disagree with them, as both Mellissia, yourself, and I do, doesn't make their voices any less loud to an author or writer.


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 Melissia wrote:
I strongly disagree with such defeatist sentiments.

Like I said, doesn't make them anyless valid for someone trying to earn a paycheck.

Actually it does. If you're going to be criticized anyway, it is better to be inclusive than exclusive.

I don't want to read about anyones sexual orientation. Straight, bi, lesbian, gay, whatever. I fail to see why it is relevent to the type of stories I read. I lately have been reading stories about Space Marines. I've not read one that had any kind of love interest at all. So YES it would bother me if somebody was gay. Not because they were gay... but because I don't give a crap about that, and I don't see why it has anything to do with a story. I don't read straight harlequin books, I wouldn't read gay or bi, or lesbian harlequin books.

The problem is the whole concept of defining people by their sexual orientation. I think people can be defined sufficiently well without their particular orientation even being mentioned.

When I worked at GW I knew at least a few of my customers were gay. But it wasn't how I defined them. I defined them as "he is a guard player" and "he is a Tyranid Player" and "he plays Dark Elves". I did not say "Oh there is the gay guy that plays guard." In the context of our relationship their sexual orientation had no place. I don't care one way or another. I did not want to hear about anyones straight relationships, and I didn't want to hear about anyones gay relationships. I did care a lot about their armies and what they were doing in their hobby.

I mean seriously, if somebody walked up to me and said "Hello I am completely heterosexual". I would think that is the wierdest person in the world. But, if somebody came up to me and said "Hello I am gay!" somehow if I felt the same suddenly I am a bigot?

Certainly I don't think so. I don't care what you do in your bedroom or who you do it with (with in legal and moral boundries, and mostly here I mean minors). I just don't know why some people think that what should be a wonderful, blessed PRIVATE thing has to be front and center all the time. Because at the end of the day while I don't care and am not bothered by it I also just plain do not want to hear about it.

Not when criticism affects your livelihood, i.e. the success of your game/novel.

When you are given free reign of your project and it's your risk, absolutely be inclusive.

 Breotan wrote:
Lots of people play Dark Angels.

This. People are overlooking the fact that Lion El'Johnson is named after a 19th century gay poet, that happened to have a poem called Dark Angel.
I wouldn't care either way. I mean, does it matter if your Spess Mahreens like boys or girls? The only people that would care are those that have not fully developed to the point of showing tolerance in others preferences, beliefs and leanings. Or Christian extremists...

 WaaaaghLord wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Lots of people play Dark Angels.

This. People are overlooking the fact that Lion El'Johnson is named after a 19th century gay poet, that happened to have a poem called Dark Angel.
I wouldn't care either way. I mean, does it matter if your Spess Mahreens like boys or girls? The only people that would care are those that have not fully developed to the point of showing tolerance in others preferences, beliefs and leanings. Or Christian extremists...

The Rock was also a popular gay bar in Nottingham. ...Makes you wonder why the motif was pushed so hard.

i thought all space marines where gay anyway.

Are you talking about making a gay sex space marine romance novel or something? No i would not want to read that at all.

But to be fair. I wouldn't want to read about a strait space marine romance novel either.

I don't care what you do. do what you like to do. As long as you are not hurting anybody.

 draugadan wrote:
The problem is the whole concept of defining people by their sexual orientation.

That's not even really what's being talked about here.


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 gunslingerpro wrote:
Not when criticism affects your livelihood, i.e. the success of your game/novel.

Again, according to you, you're going to be criticized no matter what. Why be exclusive? It just lessens the value of your work.

If you're going to be criticized either way, it won't effect your livelihood to be inclusive.

 Melissia wrote:

 gunslingerpro wrote:
Not when criticism affects your livelihood, i.e. the success of your game/novel.

Again, you're going to be criticized no matter what. Why be exclusive? It just lessens the value of your work.

Without making this a bash on them, one of the things that I find most irritating about the current kickstarter campaign for Beyond the Gates of Antares is that it simply feels... inauthentic*.

If one looks, you can find that an author/creator cannot conform closely enough to some people's desires; criticism is inevitable. A saving grave is if your work is authentic, if it truly comes from a place of integrity, then the criticism can be taken in good grace.

For example, consider towards the end of the KD:M campaign, when Poots started to throw in pin-ups that were references to anime that were... obscure (at least to me). He didn't do it because there was some vast untapped desire for them (or, at least it didn't seem that way), he did it because he liked them.

*That is, it feels like design by committee, where the sharp, wonderful edges are getting ground away into a bland... thing.

 Melissia wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
i am indifferent, except to say that I would love to live in a world where it simply wouldn't occur to anyone to ask this question.

There should be nothing "special" about an individual's sexual orientation, and ideally that would be reflected in popular culture.

I kind of feel the same way... but at the same time, this attitude is often used as an excuse to exclude people based on the same attributes that shouldn't matter.

Comic books, for example, are mostly written and drawn by men-- and for many of them, if they never thought about equality issues, they'd never include women in their comics unless they needed them for what they percieved was "womanly things", which for a long time was associated with little more than being a victim in series that had any action. If they never thought "well gak, I have no female characters, I should include some", we'd not even have TOKEN female characters, never mind ones actually doing anything, thus having the equality in writing set back even further than with our current status.

Same with homosexuality. Many people just don't think about it. And that's fine really, it's not a big impact to many peoples' lives... but it still makes for a culture of exclusion when there is nothing written about the group you belong to. It gives the impression of "you're irrelevant because you're homosexual and not heterosexual" or "you're not allowed to be a badass because you're a woman" or "only white people can be action heroes". And that really isn't the impression we want to give.

So it's much healthier for a person to say "I just realized that I haven't written any [minority] characters in to my story... so I think this character who doesn't die horribly and ends up doing awesome things will be [minority], without changing any other part of them." than to just not think about them and unintentionally exclude them.

tl;dr: Writers should think about what they write MORE, not less.

Now that's a long way of saying pretty much exactly what I said. The OP's question was what ones feelings would be about the inclusion of homosexual characters. Ideally there should be no special feelings at all because LGBT characters should be par for the course, i.e. "normal" to see in popular culture. That, however, is not the way the world is.

I particularly liked the portrayal of homosexuality in the book Metatropolis. If you have not read it, I think you should. Among the stories in Metatropolis, references to homosexuality, bisexuality, etc. appeared in very mundane contexts, much the same way one would expect references to heterosexuality, For example, during conversation a character might mention something like, "His husband isn't happy with his job." Those are the sort of productive pop culture references to the LGBT community that I would prefer to see more of, rather than a stereotype-reinforcing caricature of homosexuality.

There is a difference between going out of ones way to include something and including something quite naturally because it is simply part of everyday life. I would prefer to live in a world where one would not have to make a special effort to include homosexuals, or any other marginalized group, because those groups are not marginalized and therefore included. As I said, we don't live in that world. But to go back to the point I was making above, inclusion as a marginalizing caricature is not, I think, a positive step.

There is a reason why Buffy the Vampire Slayer changed American television, and it was not because Buffy Summers was merely a female lead character. Buffy avoided becoming a sexualized caricature. Buffy was and remains a positive role model. The character's strength and agency was not a mask for an underlying message of weakness, victimization, and emotional frailty, as it certainly could have been. Compare Buffy, for example, to Bella from the Twilight series. In Bella one finds a terrible and insidiously harmful representation of women, insidious all the more so because this message is camouflaged by Bela's position as a main character.

 TheContortionist wrote:
i thought all space marines where gay anyway.

Are you talking about making a gay sex space marine romance novel or something? No i would not want to read that at all.

But to be fair. I wouldn't want to read about a strait space marine romance novel either.

I don't care what you do. do what you like to do. As long as you are not hurting anybody.

Why do you assume that "gay character" means "turn it into a romance novel"? Are you aware that there are countless other ways to include gay (or straight or anything else you can think of) characters without having the story revolve around their romances?

Cogs wrote:
I have been wondering this for a while. Would you be interested in reading fiction about a character and if the character was strong in the game would you add him or her to your lists?

Certainly. If the writing is good (for a story) or the character is useful, the orientation of the character has little bearing on whether I'll read or play them. Maybe a slight encouragement, as we don't see well-written characters as much as I'd like in this genre.

Depends. If the story revolves around the character being gay, then yeah, it would affect my desire to read it. You're welcome to write it and try and get it published, but I'm not going to be inclined to read it. That said I don't really go for stories with a strong romantic element in the first place.

If the story doesn't actually revolve around the homosexuality and the only way you'd know the character was gay was to read some author blog, then it wouldn't affect my desire to read it one way or the other.