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 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Yes, mantic and their vision of how their games should be played (or models used) would benefit more from going to hard plastic, but then again only for their main range, what they did so far beyond KoW are not mass combat games and plastic is not what they should be looking for, the buildings, sure they will go on as terrain for a variety of game systems, that's why they are plastic.

I think this is something that is overlooked. DeadZone is a skirmish game, and intended to be a low model count. Heck, people are talking about struggling to use all the Enforcers that came with the box set in a "normal" sized game. For small production runs like that, I see no issue with not using hard plastic. As has been said, it's not a panacea because the tooling costs are still quite expensive. Sure, many people (including myself) bought in big to transplant the models into WarPath armies, but just because we opted to do that doesn't make Mantic beholden to suddenly alter their plans and convert everything to mass-battle game hard plastic.

I think the fact that the Peacekeepers, Enforcers and Forge Guard are being tooled in hard plastic is exactly how things should proceed. Those are kits that will see massive use in WarPath, as they're much more likely to be used in bulk. That they couldn't do it for the Rebs and Orx is unfortunate, but that would have been pushing their luck. I don't think anyone anywhere wants a repeat of the M@As incident, and that's exactly what happens when you reach too far, too fast.

I'd much rather Mantic confirm, slowly, that they have a plastic supplier capable of executing the designs before they go whole hog. So far, that appears to be the course they're taking, and I'll reserve judgement until we see the Wave 2 plastics. If they're good, Mantic will see a fair bit of coin from me. If they're just passable, I'll stay where I am but keep an eye on their future stuff. If they're M@As v2, I might just take the stuff I'm getting, be happy with that, and then move on to other manufacturers.

I'd be shocked if I'm unique in that regard, as I suspect that's pretty much how the cards read now for most folks. No pressure at all Mantic!

 CptJake wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
I have been a critic of mantic's restic. However, I think that there is room for more than plastic in budget gaming. Restic miniatures can be cast in one or two pieces. Naturally such models can be assembled quickly, and thus appeal to the nonhobbyist. They generally look better than one or two piece plastics, because restic allows undercuts. They are also much less costly to cast, and thus a variety of miniatures can be produced inexpensively. So, for the budget gamer who does not want to fiddle with plastic parts, and or wants a variety of sculpts, restic can fill the role.

And yet many of my Deadzone figures are cast in way more than one or two pieces. And the tiny soft detailed pieces, fitting tabs that don't fit, lack of instructions for which of the tiny parts goes with what figure are not really going to appeal to the 'nonhbbyist'. Your points may be accurate in some cases, but they don't seem to apply to what Mantic delivered for the Dreadball or Deadzone kickstrters.

I was not defending Mantic in this instance. I was just saying that there is room for restic.

I think Mantic needs to carefully consider who is going to buy its products. If they want to market to beginners or the non-hobbyist, then they need to produce simple one or two part models, whether they be plastic or restic. At present, their products are not particularly well suited to many 'classes' of wargamers. The painters do not like the lack of detail in their resin or plastic models. The low budget gamers do not have enough plastic from them. Beginners find models with too many parts, and ones that do not fit well.

 Krinsath wrote:
Peacekeepers, Enforcers and Forge Guard are being tooled in hard plastic is exactly how things should proceed.

And Asterian Cyphers and the real test of hard plastic organics, the Plague zombies.

 Krinsath wrote:
I'd much rather Mantic confirm, slowly, that they have a plastic supplier capable of executing the designs before they go whole hog. So far, that appears to be the course they're taking, and I'll reserve judgement until we see the Wave 2 plastics. If they're good, Mantic will see a fair bit of coin from me. If they're just passable, I'll stay where I am but keep an eye on their future stuff. If they're M@As v2, I might just take the stuff I'm getting, be happy with that, and then move on to other manufacturers.

I'd be shocked if I'm unique in that regard

You're spot on as far as I'm concerned. I like Deadzone a lot, but I can't see backing a hard plastic Warpath kickstarter if they don't prove themselves here.

Warpath *has* to be all about 'hard plastic', or else, what's the point?

Seriously though - no way I'm in on that one if it isn't all hard plastic with 'restic' only showing up for one offs and/or special characters and the like.

 Alpharius wrote:
Warpath *has* to be all about 'hard plastic', or else, what's the point?

Seriously though - no way I'm in on that one if it isn't all hard plastic with 'restic' only showing up for one offs and/or special characters and the like.

Hard Plastic troops and vehicle, Restic elites and bigguns is the plan.

 spaceelf wrote:

I think Mantic needs to carefully consider who is going to buy its products. If they want to market to beginners or the non-hobbyist, then they need to produce simple one or two part models, whether they be plastic or restic. At present, their products are not particularly well suited to many 'classes' of wargamers. The painters do not like the lack of detail in their resin or plastic models. The low budget gamers do not have enough plastic from them. Beginners find models with too many parts, and ones that do not fit well.

Let's not kid ourselves, the entire non-historical segment of the wargaming industry specifically targets ex-GW gamers

Right, but because Dreadball/Deadzone/Mars Attacks are actually being sold/going to be sold as boardgames, sometimes in actual physical shops, I do think they need to be more accessible to put together and get a game going. I was aghast when I saw that the DB Dwarves had to have individual fists glued on to them, for example!

Incidentally, I was undercoating some Necromunda Escher the other day - these are all single-piece metal models, and they look damn good! Perhaps not super dynamic legs sticking out, but a good impression of 3D depth and I had them glued, bases filled and cleaned up in less than 30 mins. Much closer to what I'd expect.

Of course, if Mars Attacks lives up to its promise, that's exactly what we'll be getting - anything multi-part will be pre-assembled.

 sukura636 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Warpath *has* to be all about 'hard plastic', or else, what's the point?

Seriously though - no way I'm in on that one if it isn't all hard plastic with 'restic' only showing up for one offs and/or special characters and the like.

Hard Plastic troops and vehicle, Restic elites and bigguns is the plan.

...and metal figures showing up randomly and without warning for some sculpts. Now just try and guess which ones!

 Azazelx wrote:


...and metal figures showing up randomly and without warning for some sculpts. Now just try and guess which ones!

Actually, if Deadzone is any indication you can guess which ones with reasonable accuracy. Here's the logic:

A. Is the figure an add-on?

B. Is the figure included in any well discounted bundle deals?

If A is true and B is false, the figure will not sell well, so it will be cast in metal.

I give up! These fething enforcers are going to be the death of me. None of the guns fit the arms, the torsos are too big for their waists, most pain in the arse models to put together >_<

 Alfndrate wrote:
I give up! These fething enforcers are going to be the death of me. None of the guns fit the arms, the torsos are too big for their waists, most pain in the arse models to put together >_<

Really? I just shaved down the waist fits to remove flash and made sure each one fit before gluing. Are you prepping them? Maybe you got an odd bunch of arms? I just sorted out which one went with which before starting and that helped a lot.

Now, a couple of the marauders required pressure and bending to fit their arms on. That was a good time.

I think the hot water trick applied to the legs bit allows you to sink the torsos in. Not sure about the arms.

I look forward to the day when "Hot Water Trick" and "Mantic" won't ever show up in the same sentence/post/thread ever again...

I'm not sure that's going to happen. They seem pretty sold on restic for their elite models. Even if they go all-out hard plastic for troops and vehicles, even on some elites... some other elites and characters will almost have to be restic unless they're limited enough to end up metal.

Just like GW ran metal until they switched to finecast, I think the characters and possibly elites will always be a secondary material, and they seem to favor restic for whatever reason.

I don't think that's unreasonable. Having popular/high sellers in hard plastic and elite/low sellers in restic sounds like a pretty good deal.

As GrimDork said, Plastic/metal worked great for GW.

Good points - I know I'll be happy when the majority of stuff is available in 'hard plastic' and 'restic' is for the unlucky few models.

I think I'd rather restic over metal, its not ideal but its easier to cut and has a weight more consistent with hard plastic.

My Enforcers were a breeze to put together, comparatively. Rebs are the real pain with their wavy hair and tiny arms and long tails sticking out every which way.

Protip: a good hairdryer is perfectly adequate to get restic up to "noodly soft" temperatures.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I give up! These fething enforcers are going to be the death of me. None of the guns fit the arms, the torsos are too big for their waists, most pain in the arse models to put together >_<

Alfindrate, let me know what gun arms you need-I have extras. Maybe I can help.

 GrimDork wrote:
I think I'd rather restic over metal, its not ideal but its easier to cut and has a weight more consistent with hard plastic.

Generally I still prefer metal if I'm paying a high price for individual models - well-cast metal has good detail and far less clean-up involved, in my experience. That said, realistically the Kickstarter model means everything that can be produced in plastic/restic will be - 'true' resin is too fragile (for human-sized models anyway) to ship without being very carefully packaged, and metal is just too heavy and costly for the discounts typically expected.

Also, I don't think metal is a good material for a lot of Mantic stuff - their adherence to 'true scale' means that some of their thinner metal minis are extremely fragile, and their love of bigger models can lead to issues like the wings of those angel characters.

EDIT Epic fail on my part lol EDIT

 pretre wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I give up! These fething enforcers are going to be the death of me. None of the guns fit the arms, the torsos are too big for their waists, most pain in the arse models to put together >_<

Really? I just shaved down the waist fits to remove flash and made sure each one fit before gluing. Are you prepping them? Maybe you got an odd bunch of arms? I just sorted out which one went with which before starting and that helped a lot.

Now, a couple of the marauders required pressure and bending to fit their arms on. That was a good time.

The specialist pack (sniper, rocket launcher, etc...) went together without any issue, mold lines just made me go insane for a bit. The regular enforcer 5 pack we got can rot in the lowest circle of hell. Got my torsos together after trimming them down, and one of them still doesn't look quite right. Went to put the arms on, figured. "It'll be easier to attach arms to bodies once I've attached guns to arms." So take the heavy weapon, pick out the arms that not only look right, but also seem to fit the best. I attached some glue and accelerant to my contact points, and let it sit. Then I go to fit it to the body, and lo and behold it's too damn wide. So I say feth it and set it aside, and try to find a set of left arms that will hold the rifles and the right arms that will hold the stock. Nothing seems to want to go into the holes. Most frustrating models ever, and it's a damn shame because the Plague models were a breeze with the exception of the dogs (just a little too thin in the ankles)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I give up! These fething enforcers are going to be the death of me. None of the guns fit the arms, the torsos are too big for their waists, most pain in the arse models to put together >_<

Alfindrate, let me know what gun arms you need-I have extras. Maybe I can help.

I might just use the Nova models I got from Reaper Bones I Kickstarter for these guys...

 Alfndrate wrote:

The specialist pack (sniper, rocket launcher, etc...) went together without any issue, mold lines just made me go insane for a bit. The regular enforcer 5 pack we got can rot in the lowest circle of hell. Got my torsos together after trimming them down, and one of them still doesn't look quite right. Went to put the arms on, figured. "It'll be easier to attach arms to bodies once I've attached guns to arms." So take the heavy weapon, pick out the arms that not only look right, but also seem to fit the best. I attached some glue and accelerant to my contact points, and let it sit. Then I go to fit it to the body, and lo and behold it's too damn wide. So I say feth it and set it aside, and try to find a set of left arms that will hold the rifles and the right arms that will hold the stock. Nothing seems to want to go into the holes.

I used the instructions from the update http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/deadzone-the-sci-fi-miniatures-board-game/posts/691466 that said which arms to use and they went together superquick.

But yeah, I much prefer the style of the Deadzone Enforcers versus the older Warpath ones. Thankfully these were the freebies to hold us over til the real ones come out. I'm personally not too concerned with the assembly or paint jobs of the stop-gap Warpath Enforcers as it won't be too long now til the official Deadzone ones get sent to us.

 Alfndrate wrote:
"It'll be easier to attach arms to bodies once I've attached guns to arms."

That's quite a... novel... approach.

Yeah, I test fit each set to the torso before gluing. Still required a bit of bending during assembly, but it wasn't crazy.

I have had very minimal issues with the enforcers going together, but I could see how they could be an issue with no instructions. Still, if I can help, lemme know.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
"It'll be easier to attach arms to bodies once I've attached guns to arms."

That's quite a... novel... approach.

In practice with everything else that's not a space marine, this has been the best approach I've had. With Space Marine models, the guns are so bulky and fit a wider range of motion, that the gun can be placed on last. With Mantic's pegs and holes, if I attach the arms to the body first, my pegs may not line up with the gun which means that I just glued something in the wrong position. Like I said, once I had the gun attached to the arms (via the pegs and holes provided on the model) the pose was too wide for the body.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:Yeah, I test fit each set to the torso before gluing. Still required a bit of bending during assembly, but it wasn't crazy.

My arms had to bend so much that the left arm snapped off of the gun, so now I have a wrist with a peg stuck in it...

timetowaste85 wrote:I have had very minimal issues with the enforcers going together, but I could see how they could be an issue with no instructions. Still, if I can help, lemme know.

I'll let you know.

judgedoug wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

The specialist pack (sniper, rocket launcher, etc...) went together without any issue, mold lines just made me go insane for a bit. The regular enforcer 5 pack we got can rot in the lowest circle of hell. Got my torsos together after trimming them down, and one of them still doesn't look quite right. Went to put the arms on, figured. "It'll be easier to attach arms to bodies once I've attached guns to arms." So take the heavy weapon, pick out the arms that not only look right, but also seem to fit the best. I attached some glue and accelerant to my contact points, and let it sit. Then I go to fit it to the body, and lo and behold it's too damn wide. So I say feth it and set it aside, and try to find a set of left arms that will hold the rifles and the right arms that will hold the stock. Nothing seems to want to go into the holes.

I used the instructions from the update http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/deadzone-the-sci-fi-miniatures-board-game/posts/691466 that said which arms to use and they went together superquick.

I'll check this link out tonight, but I have a feeling my luck won't be that good... The guns and arms all looked similar and yet none of them felt like going together.

I did one arm (the right/trigger hand) and once it set, did the left (forestock) arm and weapon at the same time. I was using Plastruct Plastic Weld so had a little working time. Once I had the left shoulder attached I worked the pegs of both arms into the weapon, and adjusted the left arm as required to get them all to align correctly. It worked well for me, though I REALLY don't like the figures very much. The soft detail heads are just awful.

Which brings me to my next point, if that soft detail is what I can expect for 'special' characters, while the regular troopers are better detailed in hard plastic, I submit Mantic will be screwing the pooch.

Keep in mind that these are the 'make do' enforcers and are not indicative of deadzone. They're the Warpath old ones that are crappy.

 pretre wrote:
Keep in mind that these are the 'make do' enforcers and are not indicative of deadzone. They're the Warpath old ones that are crappy.

The heads on the restic DZ enforcers they sent were no better than the 'make do' Warpath ones. Soft detailed.