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 Alpharius wrote:
Are you kidding?

Cthulhu is Box Office Gold in every Kickstarter I've seen them involved in!

Yep, I was kidding - I can't understand their avoidance of the Nameless in the slightest. I think a Nameless army would do very well, but they're just not making it into the big 8, are they?

Didn't the Fairytale Battle Royal miniatures include a zombie Cthulhu? Could have sworn it did.

I'll be happy with Warpath if I can have some kind of living, walking tanks, short stubby legs be damned! How high do they need to be off the ground anyway?

I will echo the sentiment that I want all the other stuff cleared out of their pipelines before going whole hog on this.

I do also hope they try to get as much groundwork laid out as possible prior to launching. Have a few sprues tooled up ready to SHOW us from the get go.


I still want my new Dwarf King's Hold first....

Hard plastic is essential but not sufficient for Mantic to stop being gak. If the Warpath Kickstarter is 100% plastic AND the concepts are good AND the sculpts are good AND they have more than the bare minimum number of parts AND the integral bases stay gone, they'll be worth looking at.

Cant really argue with any of that Alex.

 AlexHolker wrote:
Hard plastic is essential but not sufficient for Mantic to stop being gak. If the Warpath Kickstarter is 100% plastic AND the concepts are good AND the sculpts are good AND they have more than the bare minimum number of parts AND the integral bases stay gone, they'll be worth looking at.

Well they already hit those two with Deadzone, I thought all of the concepts were good, and all of the final sculpts we've seen to date. I understand some people don't like the Marauders, some don't like the 3rd Gens, some don't like the Rebs weapon team and some don't like the Cypher renders, but that's just personal opinion rather than definitive fact.

Integral bases, I can see why they did them, but personally I'm cutting them all off. If they don't remove them completely, they need to at least prevent future platform shoe incidents.

Integrated bases need to go for the Scifi game. I realize they *can* make basing models easier, but it seems like I hear more modelers taking the hard route and cutting them off than talking them up. For fantasy? I don't really mind them. But not for scifi games with individually based minis and no movement trays.

I think some of the plague and marauder poses are sort of derpy, though hard plastic kits would give me more leverage to fix such things and so I have to agree that overall I like what I've seen.

Seems like the more digital sculpts they do the more likely we are to get concepts matched.

Durn near ecstatic, and when they tell me my order has finally shipped in a few days (evil glare engaged) I will be properly so

Hope they throw you a few freebies for the wait.

I appreciate the sentiment They have suggested as much. We shall see, I'll just be glad to finally have my stuff. May go on over to the kickstarter page and shoot them one more email just to be the squeaky wheel (in soviet deadzone, the metaphor is you!).

 GrimDork wrote:
Integrated bases need to go for the Scifi game. I realize they *can* make basing models easier, but it seems like I hear more modelers taking the hard route and cutting them off than talking them up. For fantasy? I don't really mind them. But not for scifi games with individually based minis and no movement trays.

For me the big issue with the integral bases was the very poor execution. The platform shoes added to some figures to fit them on those bases were just a bad choice.

Anyway, I'm not going to ever be a War Path player, but hope they do make some cool vehicles and figs I can use with other rule sets. I would love some decent 28mm plastic sci fi vehicles. I'm not a big fan of the styling on a lot of GWs stuff, tending to like a more 'hard sci fi' look. I'm hoping Mantic will come up with some cool stuff I can use. I may participate in the KS for cool terrain or a few other items, but won't be spending nearly as much as some of you guys.

NTRabbit wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:
Hard plastic is essential but not sufficient for Mantic to stop being gak. If the Warpath Kickstarter is 100% plastic AND the concepts are good AND the sculpts are good AND they have more than the bare minimum number of parts AND the integral bases stay gone, they'll be worth looking at.

Well they already hit those two with Deadzone, I thought all of the concepts were good, and all of the final sculpts we've seen to date. I understand some people don't like the Marauders, some don't like the 3rd Gens, some don't like the Rebs weapon team and some don't like the Cypher renders, but that's just personal opinion rather than definitive fact.

Integral bases, I can see why they did them, but personally I'm cutting them all off. If they don't remove them completely, they need to at least prevent future platform shoe incidents.

You're correct that my dislike of the Marauder commando and Ripper suit poses (love the rest of the Marauders, actually) is not a fact, anymore than your statement that the concepts and sculpts for deadzone were good was. (Even though I happen to agree with you for the most part)

Opinions matter a great deal in an industry where purchases are guided largely by personal taste, though. Nor do you need to have a "majority" opinion for it to impact sales. Even if only 20% of their customers agree with my view, that's a hit Mantic would rather not take. It's a hit I'd rather not deliver to them, either, as I like their product a lot.

The "fact" of the matter is that overall Deadzone has been a fantastic deal for me, I love most of the models, and I have no regrets about backing it. It is also "fact" that I would have bought more Marauder and Plague starters if I actually liked the commandos and 3rd gens, but as things are, I will be filling out their ranks with substituted models bought from other companies.

Which is still demanding the sculpts change to suit a minority view.

Nobody is going to like everything, so if only 20% of their customers don't like them, why would they change something the other 80% are buying?

If it was the other way around, and 80% were not buying them, then that would be a majority opinion of them being bad, and give Mantic a hit

NTRabbit wrote:
Which is still demanding the sculpts change to suit a minority view.

I would appreciate it if you didn't put absurd, straw-man words in my mouth. I didn't "demand" anything.

NTRabbit wrote:


Nobody is going to like everything, so if only 20% of their customers don't like them, why would they change something the other 80% are buying?

If it was the other way around, and 80% were not buying them, then that would be a majority opinion of them being bad, and give Mantic a hit

So essentially, all sculpts have their admirers and detractors, so they all sell equally well? It's actually not the case that the Plague 1st gen, the only figure in the game sculpted by Remy, is generally better liked by more people, so it's now being sold individually and at a higher price than any other model in the game? It would sell just as well if another sculptor had been hired to do it, and fewer people liked it, as long as a majority still did? There's no meaningful difference between, say, a 70/30 majority and a 90/10 majority?

Some sculpts appeal to more buyers than others, and some sculptors have a higher hit ratio than others. Talent, training, experience, and artistic vision may be hard to quantify, but to deny they exist or that they play any role in miniature sales would be equally hard to argue. It's not about my taste versus yours, wrong vs. right, my loss is your gain, end of story. Business is not a zero-sum game. Any loss of profit isn't good, and every potential sale matters. The question isn't whether my opinion is in the minority and yours is in the majority. The question is whether the minority opinion is larger than usual and cutting into profits more than it "should" be.

I'm not a Mantic hater - far, far from it - and I'm not "angry" at them about the small percentage of sculpts I don't like. I don't have a personal animosity towards people like yourself who like them, either, and I'm not going out of my way to prove that your taste is "wrong". I'm glad you like those sculpts. But I find "majority rules, like it or lump it" arguments naive. The people who lump it don't change their minds and buy models they don't care for, they take their money elsewhere. If you want to talk percentages, the one that matters is whether that (hopefully) minority percentage of people who leave is larger than it ordinarily would be. If that percentage is higher than normal, it's a good sign you might want to adjust your concept for that line or hire a different sculptor.

And in the case of the Marauder style, which deliberately follows an established legacy in the miniature market, there are other factors. Maybe a GW heroic Ork style will bring in far more customers than it alienates. Maybe a higher percentage of KS customers disliking the product will be more than offset by the higher percentage of 40K fans dipping into Deadzone just to bulk up their Ork armies. In which case, from a business perspective, Mantic are doing the smart thing.

It's possible you're annoyed by the more or less constant, hyperbolic stream of negativity on these forums towards Mantic, and that you see this argument as an extension of that. I admit I don't know your mind and am only guessing here. Whether you do or do not, I don't see it that way. I actually don't think this is a huge issue to get hysterical about; as I said before, I'm very happy with Deadzone overall. I just don't believe that discounting the opinions of others, negative or positive, in blanket terms on the basis of "fact" is necessary or logical.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Vermonter wrote:
Shame the Nameless get left out, but between the Veer-myn and Zz'or I'd probably get my monster itch sufficiently scratched.

Choosing to make Veermyn instead of Nameless would be a huge mistake. So, yeah, I can see it happening.

Veer-myn are awesome. you couldn't be more wrongererrerer!
I bought the one player set and then after I got them I went crazy and now I own *checks google drive* nightcrawlers -50, nightmares - 30, nightspawn - 1, stalkers - 30, scourgers 5
and would buy even more

My mind is split on the Veer-myn. If you had asked me before Mantic did them, I would have said putting Skaven in space would be an incredibly stupid idea. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the sculpts Remy produced for Mantic of the Veer-myn make me love them in all their character and absurdity. I'd definitely buy an army of them in a Warpath KS, provided the sculpts live up to the current standard.

 judgedoug wrote:
Veer-myn are awesome.

The Vermin are bad in every conceivable way. They're an ugly implementation of an insipid concept presented as being implausibly significant by their idiotic flavour text. The setting is literally worse for their very existence, because it draws more attention to Mantic's childish portrayal of the Corporation as equal parts baby-eating evil and paint-licking stupid.

NTRabbit wrote:
Which is still demanding the sculpts change to suit a minority view.

Nobody is going to like everything, so if only 20% of their customers don't like them, why would they change something the other 80% are buying?

If it was the other way around, and 80% were not buying them, then that would be a majority opinion of them being bad, and give Mantic a hit

So 20% of the people who 'bought' them disliked them? That is pretty bad. What about all the people who did not buy them because they were terrible models? There were a large number of uncounted people who did not buy the marauders because they were bad models.

The problem is, Mantic has bad sculpters. other KS can fire off 100 models with every single one being a hit. And there is a difference between not liking the subject matter and a bad sculpt.

Mantic has a serious failure in faithfully translating concept art to models (which most other companies have no problem doing) and has a serious documented failure in actually fixing real, identified flaws... (this is not 100% done! and then we find out it was)

Unlike every single other KS out there, people are buying in bulk, based upon concept art with the expectation they will probably need to throw away a % of the models because they will be crap sculpts, throw away another % because they will be damaged and then roughly get the rest at a decent price. I cannot remember another KS where that expectation happened or was expected to happen. Myth is getting ready to drop with dozens of sculpts and every single one is a home run and a faithful recreation of the art I pledged for. It can be done, mantic has bad artists and weak art direction.

 AlexHolker wrote:
Mantic's childish portrayal of the Corporation as equal parts baby-eating evil and paint-licking stupid.

That's what makes it believable.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Veer-myn are awesome.

The Vermin are bad in every conceivable way. They're an ugly implementation of an insipid concept presented as being implausibly significant by their idiotic flavour text. The setting is literally worse for their very existence, because it draws more attention to Mantic's childish portrayal of the Corporation as equal parts baby-eating evil and paint-licking stupid.

Care to elaborate? I think they are kinda neat.

I think he did elaborate. But if you really want more of that...

 pretre wrote:
I think he did elaborate. But if you really want more of that...

I'm kinda fascinated by his burning hatred of them, so it would be interesting to hear an explanation beyond "they are stupid and ugly!"

Just the same tired old detractors twisting words declaring their personal opinion about the models they dislike the most to be fact.

The proof will be in the sales of each faction (boosters for the Plague and Corporation, since they're in the retail box), and so far none of us have those sales figures yet. Given the wide positive reaction I've seen to the Marauders from places that aren't here, I'm reasonably confident the Marauders have sold well.

And personal attacks. That's nice at least.

So how're people coming with the surveys? I know mine is getting astronomical, but I haven't officially submitted it yet.

I'm still playing with my MA survey.

 ulgurstasta wrote:
Care to elaborate?

The most basic flaw of the race is that the threshold at which humanity wages a war of extermination against the proto-Veer-myn is lower than the threshold at which the proto-Veer-myn can do anything about it. They cannot grow powerful enough to challenge us right under our noses, because in growing individually more powerful they would sacrifice the only attributes that keep them alive. They're the least inspired sort of fantasy race with backstory that makes no sense in the science fiction setting Warpath purports to be.

 pretre wrote:
I think he did elaborate. But if you really want more of that...

3 years ago... they were pimped of being a 'secret race' that was a conspiracy, kept from the civilians of the universe, and a master threat to the corporations foundation. Something so dire and evil, there is an un-ending threat to humanity. It actually sounded cool, unique and as if Mantic was going to make a serious go at having a distinct, real universe onto their own.

And then it was fantasy skaven with goggles who hadn't mastered shoes and had torn leather loincloths. It had a really bad reaction and has probably been ret-conned by now.

The issue is 'meatgrinder hoard' races mean nothing in Sci-Fi because one person can carpetbomb a million aliens to death from orbit. Nids and Orks have a specific reproduction format which makes it at least plausible for them to replenish massive casualties in a reasonable way. Rats in space do not... While they would be more prolific, they would be no where near the level of reproductive and ability to teach offspring to keep themselves alive let alone be the greatest threat to humanity ever. If they had a real government, their own planets and so on, maybe, but not an 'under-race' living in human civilization.

It is skaven in space, which was lazy which made people sad.

Oh I did finally get my dz survey summary back. Had the missing sword spawn issue but it was only a test anyway. MA survey summary still in limbo.

Well.. we may not be seeing James Hewitt back.. according to the newsletter I just got.. he is parting ways with Mantic to go write gaming rules elsewhere...

-P

Personally I thought Veer-myn were awesome. Who doesn't like Space Skaven? If anything the one that I hate is Forge Fathers since people seem to have this hard-on for Squats ever since GW threw them out 20 some years ago, and they were garbage then.

Dang it, I knew I was right about the ork gun track.



I had wondered if the support on the weapon piece was supposed to connect to something.

Looking at this it appears as if it is supposed to:

I've genuinely decided I don't mine the platform shoes thing. - At least as far as Deadzone is concerned anyhow.

Ignoring the infinity model in the pic, and looking at the left one.



The platforms look pretty bad, right?

Yet, once painted and based....



I, for one, can barely see any sign or hint of it.

In saying that, it doesn't help my Dreadball nameless models...