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I am new to Warhammer and this is the current situation; I've acquired the rule book, I've picked an army, not sure exactly how to begin. I like to have some idea of where my current army is going before I start putting models together.
What I want to ask is this; when you start out with a new army, what do *you* look for first? What type of troop do you think is something you absolutely cannot do with out. Regardless of what type of army your building.

Let me give you an example; I have an idea for a themed vampire counts army, but it would frown upon units such as zombies and ghouls. If I excluded them completely in favor of skeletons (and the more costly graveguard) would I be dooming myself completely? OR, lets say I'm skaven. Other sites have given me the impression that they are a hoardy sort of army, what if I focused instead on their, tougher, harder hitting units? Are they so hoardy that if I don't go that route I'm making an army that won't work?

By the way, just to note I don't plan on playing in any tournaments, and I understand that a certain percentage of your army must be core troops, only up to a certain percentage can be heroes, ect.

I don't bother about power levels of units. I simply pick a 'starting' size, and build it around that.

For Fantasy, my advice would be start with 1000pts. Pick 250pts of Core. Don't be too terribly concerned with power levels, just pick a Core unit or two you like and build to 250pts.

Pick a hero or two to lead them, coming to 250pts. Again, don't be too concerned with power levels. Pick some cool looking heroes, figure out some equipment for them, and get them to 250pts.

Then go look at the Special and Rare sections, and look for 250pts of both (or even 500pts of Special). These are generally more fun toys than Core, so it helps keep your interest up.

Once you've found your 1000pts, build it and paint it, then go play some games with it. You'll know where you want to take your army from there.

The bottom line, really, is this: every army cannot do everything. So, if you pick an army and try to force it into a playstyle that the rules of that army do not fit, you will have problems. That does not mean that you will always lose, it just means that winning will be more difficult. Your non-horde Skaven idea is a good example. Choosing an army that you have fun reading about, building, painting, and playing really comes down to finding the army that is most compatible with your list of desires and understanding that it's unlikely that any one army will meet ALL of your wants.

Let's use your skeleton example. No, skeletons in a vacuum aren't horrible, and if you use skeletons and forsake ghouls and zombies you won't be doomed to constant losses. However, skeletons are better if you have a necromancer with the Master of the Dead upgrade. Taking this upgrade might exclude you from being able to take as many vampire heroes as you initially planned, but that's a compromise you might consider making. Do you stick to your theme and take more vampires, which loses you more games? Or do you compromise on that wish to make a more effective list?

Ultimately, it's up to you. But Loki's idea is a good one. If you start small, you'll get a chance to learn the nuances of the army and the game without spending a ton of money, and you'll get a better idea of whether or not your theme will work well within the rules of the game and bring you enough success to keep you happy (and if it DOESN'T work, then at least you haven't invested a bunch of cash in models that you end up not wanting to use).

@Tangent Let me ask you this, in my no zombies/ghouls army, what makes you so sure the necromancer to vampire ratio needs to be so high? Master of the Dead seems to increase the units of Skeletons beyond starting size. Its useful, no doubt, but necromancers and some vamps can raise the broken ones back to life. What if those missing ranks of extra skeletons were compensated by say, more grave guard. Just asking out of curiosity.

From what it looks like, the vampire counts rely strongly on; cheap but easily reprehensible infantry, magic, and fear. They have no missile troops.

I understand what your saying and it is good advice. I can work out a quick 1000pt army, and then play it to see what adjustments I'll have to make. (I do the same thing when playing Magic) What I'm doing is getting a good baseline on what is normal for people when starting an army. This helps a lot.

Let me throw out one of the themed armies I've got rambling around in my head. I affectionately call it 'The Monster of Marienburg'.
The quick rundown of it is this; zombies and ghouls are commoners, and for a vampire of lesser standing.
No in this sort of list you would see a sizable force of common skeleton troops, BUT also more Grave guard than most would see in most generic VC armies.
You would see more of the 'expensive' units being focused on. For example you might there would be a little more blood knights on the field. The Monster of Marienburg has got gold.
An elitiest sort of army. You would see those cheap infantry that make the VC so effective, but some of the focus would be taken off of them and put on the more vicious troops.

I'm rambling now, but this is basically what I'm getting at. Trying to stay true to theme, while keeping the army very effective (which in my inexperienced eyes is the joy of building a themed army)
It is easier to do this when I understand more of what makes a 'basic' army and the process of building it.

 Havlok wrote:
@Tangent Let me ask you this, in my no zombies/ghouls army, what makes you so sure the necromancer to vampire ratio needs to be so high? Master of the Dead seems to increase the units of Skeletons beyond starting size. Its useful, no doubt, but necromancers and some vamps can raise the broken ones back to life. What if those missing ranks of extra skeletons were compensated by say, more grave guard. Just asking out of curiosity.

No no no, you misunderstand. I was using Master of the Dead (MotD) as but an example. What I was trying to say with that example is that, since you don't know a lot about the game, you may end up building a themed list that doesn't consider certain aspects of your army. You'll play with that list and you might lose over and over. Then, you'll go back to your armybook (now that you understand the game better) and you'll notice other details and see other nuance within the strategy that this army is designed for. However, your list PERFECTLY fits your theme idea and there is ZERO room for shifting - you've used all the points that you've been allotted and there's nothing more that you can add. You might find that you really want to use MotD, but don't have points for it... so you'll have to compromise by taking points from other areas. This might HURT your overall theme by forcing you to remove stuff and add in elements that are unrelated to the theme. This is the case because a single army cannot do everything, and certain units within an army will be better from a gameplay perspective at certain things that might NOT fit within whatever theme you have in mind.

To answer your specific question about the necromancer to vampire ratio... Only one necromancer can take MotD, regardless of how many necromancers you have in your army. So, the ratio doesn't need to be high at all. The problem is that your theme might be "no necromancers, only vampires, lots of skeletons" and vampires can't take MotD.

 Tangent wrote:

No no no, you misunderstand. I was using Master of the Dead (MotD) as but an example. What I was trying to say with that example is that, since you don't know a lot about the game, you may end up building a themed list that doesn't consider certain aspects of your army. You'll play with that list and you might lose over and over. Then, you'll go back to your armybook (now that you understand the game better) and you'll notice other details and see other nuance within the strategy that this army is designed for. However, your list PERFECTLY fits your theme idea and there is ZERO room for shifting - you've used all the points that you've been allotted and there's nothing more that you can add. You might find that you really want to use MotD, but don't have points for it... so you'll have to compromise by taking points from other areas. This might HURT your overall theme by forcing you to remove stuff and add in elements that are unrelated to the theme. This is the case because a single army cannot do everything, and certain units within an army will be better from a gameplay perspective at certain things that might NOT fit within whatever theme you have in mind.

To answer your specific question about the necromancer to vampire ratio... Only one necromancer can take MotD, regardless of how many necromancers you have in your army. So, the ratio doesn't need to be high at all. The problem is that your theme might be "no necromancers, only vampires, lots of skeletons" and vampires can't take MotD.

Ok, I see what your saying now. Yes that is true. I also took Loki's advice and picked out a small 1000pt army. Just went with units I liked and fit both rules and synergy. For a themed army it will press me more creatively. I think it might be easier to slowly gather units and come up with a unified theme (paint/scheme) for them, than coming up with a really nice theme and then trying to gather forces to fit into it. At the very least it will uphold the useability of the army.

For me its about the models-if you cant stand the core units that you are going to have to use in every game it doesnt matter how many monsters or characters you have to go at you will never enjoy your army and in many cases probably never bother to paint your basic troops (this is why i paint my core first).

I just want to add that with starting small, it is a good idea to play "proxy" games. If a unit is outside of your theme a shmidge so you don't get it at first, you use your existing models as proxy before forking out for it.
Some people I have known get caught up in the idea that they cannot play a unit without the models at hand, where taking the unit out for a test drive before adding it is not a bad idea.
In regards to VC, my friend who plays that army started with a Lahmain force and thought that the pretty ladies would not want unclean ghouls or zombies on their carpet and he did fine with a skeleton only list. Make the list that you want to start.

In regards to what units to pick, I've began being a fan of concept/theme armies. In WHFB's case, you could do a gunline or monster mash or cavalry list, etc etc for general lists. Or for specific armies you could make a list around certain fluff or a theme unique to that army, such as a Skryre + Eshin theme for Skaven or a skeleton + ghost only list for VC (they used to have Bloodlines, I believe, which would be easier to guide a theme perhaps) or a Wild Hunt list for WE (though I don't think Orion fits in a sub-3000pt game anymore), etc etc. I did a Middenland/Middenheim theme for my Empire - not just color, but also what I thought were fitting units (high on melee, White Wolf cavalry, Hurricanum, etc)

I'm a huge fan of themed armies and I found it really hard to get into that aspect with the current VC book. The removal of Bloodlines really hurt themes, in my opinion.

When you've looked over the Fantasy line, and selected an army you like, grab the Army Book that goes along with it.

Once you have The Army Book, I think reading it, and getting a feel for the armies different backgrounds will help motivate you when you begin painting. Read about the different units, the famous/infamous characters, the land they operate in, and their main opponents. Once your got a vision in your mind of an army, it makes it easier picking a color scheme, and selecting troops for your army.

Since you mentioned your not really considering the tournament scene (for now), I'd try and focus on a balanced list/army. Ive seen a lot of guys focus on one aspect of an army and get really burned when a new army book comes out, and it changes that aspect the person built his entire army around.

I would write up an army list and just post it here and ask people for help. Explain that your new and what models you have. People will steer you in the right direction so you dont waste your money.

A lot of your time is gonna be spent gluing, painting, and modeling your army, so you really wanna get models that appeal to you. Your the guy who has to look at them the most.

 Tangent wrote:
I'm a huge fan of themed armies and I found it really hard to get into that aspect with the current VC book. The removal of Bloodlines really hurt themes, in my opinion.

yeah, I decided if I ever do a VC army, I'd just limit myself to 2 of the 4 main "unbiologies" if you will (at least what I perceive to be the 4 main ones) - skellies, ghoulish, bestial, and spirits (zombies as Core filler if needed!) - to make my "theme".

First off pick a army you like the look of and don't mind investing in. Fantasy armies cost more then 40K armies simply because of the massive block of infantry you need in the current edition. Second off look at what style you want to play. Do you want to smash your enemy with heavy skilled warriors? Do you want to swarm your enemy with hordes of small creatures or creatures with less then normal stat lines, or do you want to out play your opponent with specialized units supported by magic? Answer that question and go form there