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I was checking out the psychic powers section of the rule book the other day and stumbled across something interesting in the beam witchfire rules. It specifically states that each model under the line is hit not unit. Based on that I would say that with a beam you get to snipe the special weapons and characters (barring LOS!) out of a unit. Anyone else notice this?

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Hmmm, I think that is the correct reading, which is good for Doombolt

Of course a character/IC would get the Look Out Sir attempt. But against, say, a Standard of Devastation bearer, that would be very awesome! Makes me wish I had Necrons and Death Rays now.
   
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Death rays aren't a beam attack.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




FKaos wrote:
I was checking out the psychic powers section of the rule book the other day and stumbled across something interesting in the beam witchfire rules. It specifically states that each model under the line is hit not unit. Based on that I would say that with a beam you get to snipe the special weapons and characters (barring LOS!) out of a unit. Anyone else notice this?

Casualty removal and wound allocation would say otherwise
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
FKaos wrote:
I was checking out the psychic powers section of the rule book the other day and stumbled across something interesting in the beam witchfire rules. It specifically states that each model under the line is hit not unit. Based on that I would say that with a beam you get to snipe the special weapons and characters (barring LOS!) out of a unit. Anyone else notice this?

Casualty removal and wound allocation would say otherwise


What are you getting at, Nos? The rules for Beam powers is pretty clear that each model takes a hit, not the unit.
   
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"Next, allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to the firing unit"

Find permission to override the Allocation rules.
   
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closest model to the psyker only focused witchfire allow sniping.
   
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tgf wrote:
closest model to the psyker only focused witchfire allow sniping.


Focused witchfire is it's own thing and has no bearing on whether beams hit what is under them or the unit as a whole.
   
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 Kevin949 wrote:
tgf wrote:
closest model to the psyker only focused witchfire allow sniping.


Focused witchfire is it's own thing and has no bearing on whether beams hit what is under them or the unit as a whole.

Templates and markers only hit the models under them, but casualty removal is the same*.

*For Blast markers that are not Barrage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/25 20:01:24


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 DeathReaper wrote:
 Kevin949 wrote:
tgf wrote:
closest model to the psyker only focused witchfire allow sniping.


Focused witchfire is it's own thing and has no bearing on whether beams hit what is under them or the unit as a whole.

Templates and markers only hit the models under them, but casualty removal is the same*.

*For Blast markers that are not Barrage.


Oh I understand that, but it's not a template or blast.

Also, if you look at template/blast rules, or even the death ray rule, they all says "The unit suffers an amount of hits for each model under the marker" (paraphrased).

To answer Nos's question earlier -

The beam automatically hits all models (friend or foe), other than the
psyker, under the line. The model closest to the Psyker suffers a
hit at the beam's full Strength. The beam then hits the next closest
model under the line, but its Strength is reduced by 1. The next
model in line is then hit, with the Strength reduced by 1 again.

Nowhere in the beam subtype rules does it mention the unit taking hits or anything, it is all model by model. I do get what you're saying about wound allocation, nos, and while I can't specifically refute it I do feel it was an oversight in writing the rule for Beams.
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find permission to override the Allocation rules.
That's easy - the specific rule allocating the hit to a specific model overrides the general rule of normal wound allocation. 6th edition doesn't have anything like 5th edition's rule that wounds suffered by models are applied to the unit, and honestly it never seemed like the 5th edition FAQ writers were ever aware that rule existed, anyway.
   
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the reason why it mentions models under the line and not unit under the line is to prevent the argument that would ensue. If it said units, then if that unit is 20 guardman, does it take 20 hits? If it's 5 marines? 5 hits?

It hits models found under the line, so if 3 models, the unit suffers 3 hits.
You wound those models based on weapon strength and following modifier (each model after the first one makes str go down by one).

Once you move on to wound allocation, no where is it defined that you don't follow normal rules.

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Pyrian wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find permission to override the Allocation rules.
That's easy - the specific rule allocating the hit to a specific model overrides the general rule of normal wound allocation. 6th edition doesn't have anything like 5th edition's rule that wounds suffered by models are applied to the unit, and honestly it never seemed like the 5th edition FAQ writers were ever aware that rule existed, anyway.

The hit is applied to a model, but nothing overrides the rule I mentioned. Models under a blast are hit by the blast as well, but nothing overrides the allocation to the closest model.

Find a rule specifically, as in mentions allocation of wound, and you have a point. Your example is Barrage
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Pyrian wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Find permission to override the Allocation rules.
That's easy - the specific rule allocating the hit to a specific model overrides the general rule of normal wound allocation. 6th edition doesn't have anything like 5th edition's rule that wounds suffered by models are applied to the unit, and honestly it never seemed like the 5th edition FAQ writers were ever aware that rule existed, anyway.

The hit is applied to a model, but nothing overrides the rule I mentioned. Models under a blast are hit by the blast as well, but nothing overrides the allocation to the closest model.

Find a rule specifically, as in mentions allocation of wound, and you have a point. Your example is Barrage


Your example of blast is somewhat incorrect, Pg 6. Bolded - A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template.

Yes I realize it uses the word "template" but in that section for Blast Markers and Templates it uses "Template" to reference all, not just "template weapons".

So no, models are not hit based on being under the template/blast. The unit is, the amount of hits is determined by how many models are under the item.
Very different from how Beam is worded.
   
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Which still does not mention the words "Wound allocation" anywhere. So again, please show where the wound allocation rules are altered.
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which still does not mention the words "Wound allocation" anywhere. So again, please show where the wound allocation rules are altered.


I understand that, I'm just saying that the comparison to blast/template weapons is incorrect and the interpretation that they operate the same (or similar) to beams is also incorrect. That is all.

I've already stated I have no specific method to refute the wound allocation method, but using my personal logic and how it's worded, it appears to me that it's supposed to be model by model and only those in the way, not unit by unit. That's how I would play it anyway, if anyone had beam users.
   
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Which is a houserule, as the actual rules tell you to do otherwise.
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which is a houserule, as the actual rules tell you to do otherwise.


Quick question, is there another instance of a shooting ability referencing a singular model suffering a hit of any kind that doesn't specifically apply to the model for entire process? I was trying to think of other examples but things like JoTWW don't cause wounds and Gets Hot doesn't cause hits.
   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
The hit is applied to a model, but nothing overrides the rule I mentioned.
Applying the hit to a model does, itself, override the rule you mentioned. If you go on to apply the wound caused by the hit to a different model than the one that was hit, then you have broken the rule that the model under the beam is the one that was hit, since that hit (as well as its resulting wound) has now been applied to a different model.
   
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Pyrian wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
The hit is applied to a model, but nothing overrides the rule I mentioned.
Applying the hit to a model does, itself, override the rule you mentioned.
No it doesn't. There's no rule in BRB I can find that supports this position RAW. But you're willing to find one, right?
Pyrian wrote:
If you go on to apply the wound caused by the hit to a different model than the one that was hit, then you have broken the rule that the model under the beam is the one that was hit,
Wrong again. The hit is applied to that specific model. If you have any special rules that state "model hit by this attack ...", they apply to that model.
Pyrian wrote:
since that hit (as well as its resulting wound) has now been applied to a different model.
No. The hit was applied to the original model. After that, you go back to shooting rules to see how to proceed. Next steps are "Roll To Wound, populate Wound Pool, Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties". RAW Beam gives no exception to the "Allocate Wounds" so they're done closest first.
   
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Pyrian wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
The hit is applied to a model, but nothing overrides the rule I mentioned.
Applying the hit to a model does, itself, override the rule you mentioned. If you go on to apply the wound caused by the hit to a different model than the one that was hit, then you have broken the rule that the model under the beam is the one that was hit, since that hit (as well as its resulting wound) has now been applied to a different model.

Please find an actual rule that states that. There isnt one, but please, find it.

I have applied the hit to that model, and then I've followed the actual rules on page 15 and allocated any resulting wound to the closest model in the unit. Find a rule, page and paragraph, which states otherwise
   
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 Kevin949 wrote:
Your example of blast is somewhat incorrect, Pg 6. Bolded - A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template.

Yes I realize it uses the word "template" but in that section for Blast Markers and Templates it uses "Template" to reference all, not just "template weapons".

So no, models are not hit based on being under the template/blast. The unit is, the amount of hits is determined by how many models are under the item.
Very different from how Beam is worded.


I thought you were on to something here, and you had me leaning your way until I checked the wording in the rulebook. While you're correct that the Blast rules use the wording you describe (the unit suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models covered), the Template rules (p52) actually use wording much more like the Beam wording. The Template weapon rules say that the models under the template are hit; not that the unit suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models covered, like Blast says.

So I have to agree with Nos. Given that the Beam wording is quite similar to the Template wording, I have to say that it doesn't overide normal wound allocation. Which is a shame; I really think it would be cool if Tzeentch sorcs had a CHANCE of rolling a sniper beam power, the way Space Wolves are guaranteed to have if they want to. It's not like it would be unbalanced. It'd also make the Telekinisis discipline more attractive, as the Primaris for that is a Beam.

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 Mannahnin wrote:
 Kevin949 wrote:
Your example of blast is somewhat incorrect, Pg 6. Bolded - A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template.

Yes I realize it uses the word "template" but in that section for Blast Markers and Templates it uses "Template" to reference all, not just "template weapons".

So no, models are not hit based on being under the template/blast. The unit is, the amount of hits is determined by how many models are under the item.
Very different from how Beam is worded.


I thought you were on to something here, and you had me leaning your way until I checked the wording in the rulebook. While you're correct that the Blast rules use the wording you describe (the unit suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models covered), the Template rules (p52) actually use wording much more like the Beam wording. The Template weapon rules say that the models under the template are hit; not that the unit suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models covered, like Blast says.

So I have to agree with Nos. Given that the Beam wording is quite similar to the Template wording, I have to say that it doesn't overide normal wound allocation. Which is a shame; I really think it would be cool if Tzeentch sorcs had a CHANCE of rolling a sniper beam power, the way Space Wolves are guaranteed to have if they want to. It's not like it would be unbalanced. It'd also make the Telekinisis discipline more attractive, as the Primaris for that is a Beam.


I did miss that spot, to be honest I didn't look at page 52 because I figured the previous pg 6 reference and the reference to the Blast special rules was enough, however I would like to point that just prior to your sentence you pointed out it does say "to cover as many models from the target unit as possible". This indicates, to me, that the unit is the target and the number of hits inflicted is still based on how many are under the template.

The difference here is that a beam psychic power does not target units or models, it targets a point on the battlefield and those under the line are affected. My issue is more so that, even if the rules for allocation tells us we can (or must) allocate to the closest enemy model to the psyker from the unit of the first model hit, if you are not applying the effects/damage of the power to that model hit then how are you following a "line"? The only reference to unit in the rule description is when it says the first model hit must be from the same unit the rest of his squad fired upon that turn.

Again, I'm not really attempting to refute the allocation rules, as per RAW there is no real way to circumvent it with the current wording; I just feel that the intent (not the right word I want, but can't think of a more appropriate word that doesn't imply I know what GW was thinking) of "beam" types was to create what JotWW currently does.
   
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Deny The Witch means that you are targeting a unit, not individual models - or Beams don't allow DtW (as its a roll for the targeted unit, not the first targeted model).

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I can't quite get behind you on targeting. It does say that to use it, you target a point within the power's range, but I disagree that that means the psyker is actually targeting a point in space. I think they're just describing how you mechanically use it.

Especially since the rule goes on to say that the first model hit must be from the same unit that the rest of the psyker's unit targets that phase. I think the psyker is actually functionally targeting that unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
Deny The Witch means that you are targeting a unit, not individual models - or Beams don't allow DtW (as its a roll for the targeted unit, not the first targeted model).

Good point; page 6 of the FAQ allowing the first unit crossed by a Beam to attempt DtW also is indicative that this unit is being targeted by the power.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/27 02:10:44


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rigeld2 wrote:
Deny The Witch means that you are targeting a unit, not individual models - or Beams don't allow DtW (as its a roll for the targeted unit, not the first targeted model).


Does Jaws not allow Deny the witch? If it does, that is an example of a power that targets models and not units and allows Deny the Witch.

Or is Jaws not a "beam" witchfire? (Sorry, I really don't know the space wolf codex)
   
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 Kevin949 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Deny The Witch means that you are targeting a unit, not individual models - or Beams don't allow DtW (as its a roll for the targeted unit, not the first targeted model).


Does Jaws not allow Deny the witch? If it does, that is an example of a power that targets models and not units and allows Deny the Witch.

Or is Jaws not a "beam" witchfire? (Sorry, I really don't know the space wolf codex)

It's not a beam, and Jaws specifically targets the unit of the first model affected (or used to - check the SW FAQ).

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