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They seem to have an affinity for using slaves and serfs in high levels of responsibility, its very strange and seems kind of counter productive. In the Soul Hunter series Talos probably could have avoided semptemises insubordination and impregnating Octavia if he had freed the man, kept him as part of the crew, paid him a wage, and tossed a couple cultist groupies his way.

The term "Chapter Serf" is somewhat misleading.

As well would be the idea of a "free man" in the Imperium, lol.

"It varies by chapter" is the only true statement to be made.

Serfdom is serfdom - the Space Marines are basically granted the rights of feudal lords over the territories they control. That being said, not all Chapters choose to exert this right to its full extent, and the treatment of their servants will likewise differ depending on Chapter culture. Indeed, I am sure that many if not most Chapters have serfs who would not even regard themselves as what essentially amounts to "slaves", where the honour that goes with the position exceeds any potential lust for freedom. Still, it comes down to a sort of delusion - I would think that Astartes as well as Chapter serfs simply go along with it as if it would be a natural order of things.

I imagine dealing mostly with serfs might even color some of their reactions to the rest of hte Imperium.

Serfdom is serfdom - the Space Marines are basically granted the rights of feudal lords over the territories they control. That being said, not all Chapters choose to exert this right to its full extent, and the treatment of their servants will likewise differ depending on Chapter culture. Indeed, I am sure that many if not most Chapters have serfs who would not even regard themselves as what essentially amounts to "slaves", where the honour that goes with the position exceeds any potential lust for freedom. Still, it comes down to a sort of delusion - I would think that Astartes as well as Chapter serfs simply go along with it as if it would be a natural order of things.

Exactly. I'll bet the "Serfs" of many Chapters enjoy more rights and freedoms than citizens in the rest of the Imperium, and probably see themselves for all of that as "better" than their fellow humans.

And at the same time, the serfs of many other chapters are little more than slaves both in name and in practice. It varies really.

It does indeed vary greatly. However, as to your specific example, I think that Septimus was probably going to end up romantically involved with Octavia regardless of his status as a free man or not. I get the distinct impression that Septimus could have had his pick of women on the Covenant, but Octavia was the only one who was "in his pack." His status as a slave, serf, or free man was incidental, as soon as she joined his social circle (Septimus is unique in that he has two social circles, one consisting of himself, Octavia, Talos, and Nonus, while he also belongs to the 'pack group' of First Claw.) I think romantic interest between them was almost assured.

That being said, I don't think you could get a more loyal servant than Septimus. I think that the 'iinsubordiation' you are seeing in his refusal to stay away from Octavia is not born from resentment at being a slave, but instead comes from his essential human nature, a quality that Talos not only lacks, but has trouble even remembering. It's one of the great moments in that series when Bowden reminds the readers that there is a gulf of difference between 'protagonist' and 'hero.'

Septimus definitively was a slave, hence varial physically threatening him on several occasions in a way he never threatened the members of the Legion or the crew.
Also I think its its a very warped view of not seeing mans innate desire to be free. His attraction to Octavia was part of his desire to regain some level of normalcy and control to his life. If he had been treated better he would have performed better.

I'm using a group of Chaos Marines as an example but all Astarte's with the exception of the Death Guard, Black Legion, and Space Wolves seem to have a need for slaves as opposed to free men.

I'd say that their are free men on both sides of humanity, the Blood Pact, the mortal pirates of the Red Corsairs I would consider free men and elite units of the Imperial Guard could also call themselves free.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Septimus definitively was a slave, hence varial physically threatening him on several occasions in a way he never threatened the members of the Legion or the crew.
Also I think its its a very warped view of not seeing mans innate desire to be free. His attraction to Octavia was part of his desire to regain some level of normalcy and control to his life. If he had been treated better he would have performed better.

I'm using a group of Chaos Marines as an example but all Astarte's with the exception of the Death Guard, Black Legion, and Space Wolves seem to have a need for slaves as opposed to free men.

I'd say that their are free men on both sides of humanity, the Blood Pact, the mortal pirates of the Red Corsairs I would consider free men and elite units of the Imperial Guard could also call themselves free.

Noone in the Imperium of Man or amongst the legions of Chaos can call himself free. The former are slaves to Terra while the later are slaves to the dark gods.
"Man's inate desire to be free" plays no role for either of them. Both desire servants who obey without question or a second thought.

Noone in the Imperium of Man or amongst the legions of Chaos can call himself free. The former are slaves to Terra while the later are slaves to the dark gods.
"Man's inate desire to be free" plays no role for either of them. Both desire servants who obey without question or a second thought.

But that does not change who humanity is, regardless of what one wants. Humans want to be free and will die for it, its in our nature.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Noone in the Imperium of Man or amongst the legions of Chaos can call himself free. The former are slaves to Terra while the later are slaves to the dark gods.
"Man's inate desire to be free" plays no role for either of them. Both desire servants who obey without question or a second thought.

But that does not change who humanity is, regardless of what one wants. Humans want to be free and will die for it, its in our nature.

That's wishful thinking. For thousands of years there have been various societies which thrived by employing unfree labour ( which is not necessarily synonymous with chattel slavery ). Many of them were quite stable. There might be a desire to be free but for many people this desire is, understandably enough, not the primary one.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Noone in the Imperium of Man or amongst the legions of Chaos can call himself free. The former are slaves to Terra while the later are slaves to the dark gods.
"Man's inate desire to be free" plays no role for either of them. Both desire servants who obey without question or a second thought.

But that does not change who humanity is, regardless of what one wants. Humans want to be free and will die for it, its in our nature.

I think real human history is proof against that. Great masses of humanity have willingly submitted to the rule of others, no matter how crazy, because of an overriding desire to live and an unwillingness to take charge of their own lives. Granted some have willingly given up their lives in order to ensure freedom for others. However the vast majority not only wouldn't do that but in numerous cases have actively fought against real freedom.

This is proven every single time a dictator comes into power and begins abusing it's people. Heck there are plenty of people in my country (supposedly the beacon of freedom on the planet) that willingly try to abdicate the responsibilities of their freedom and turn it over to the government so that they don't have to be responsible. Personally, I think that is insane but I certainly recognize that many people simply just want to be told what to do.

In the case of 40k it boils down to the desires of those that are in local power. If they want direct and total control of their population they can certainly enforce it through violence. If they want some semblance of "freedom" they can certainly promote that in a way that still leaves them as part of the Imperium. It is a pretty big galaxy after all.

I'm using a group of Chaos Marines as an example but all Astarte's with the exception of the Death Guard, Black Legion, and Space Wolves seem to have a need for slaves as opposed to free men.

The realm of Ultramar probably has the least "slaves", or their coalition of planets would have fallen apart. Their serfs are also probably some of better off (and proudest) that there are.

Slavery exists in various forms in the Imperium but is quite widespread. Chapter Serfs may be treated will in most chapters, but they're still serfs. It's an inhumane system that they're born into and can never escape, doomed to spend their entire life serving masters who will never truly view them as their equals.

Of course this kind of slavery is better then what you find on Forge Worlds or mining worlds, which is something reminiscent to ancient Rome.

Depends really. I imagine that the space wolves see them as equals, but they're exceptional in that regard, possibly the only exception.

Battle of the Fang indicates that they really don't.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Battle of the Fang indicates that they really don't.

The codex indicates that they are supposed to at any rate.

This is proven every single time a dictator comes into power and begins abusing it's people. Heck there are plenty of people in my country (supposedly the beacon of freedom on the planet) that willingly try to abdicate the responsibilities of their freedom and turn it over to the government so that they don't have to be responsible. Personally, I think that is insane but I certainly recognize that many people simply just want to be told what to do.

Depends on who your talking about, I don't think the fact that I want hurricane victims to taken better care of and wanting banksters corporate predators to have to obey the say laws as everyone else makes me a wanna be slave.

 Melissia wrote:
The codex indicates that they are supposed to at any rate.

Where?

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Serfdom is serfdom - the Space Marines are basically granted the rights of feudal lords over the territories they control. That being said, not all Chapters choose to exert this right to its full extent, and the treatment of their servants will likewise differ depending on Chapter culture. Indeed, I am sure that many if not most Chapters have serfs who would not even regard themselves as what essentially amounts to "slaves", where the honour that goes with the position exceeds any potential lust for freedom. Still, it comes down to a sort of delusion - I would think that Astartes as well as Chapter serfs simply go along with it as if it would be a natural order of things.

Exactly. I'll bet the "Serfs" of many Chapters enjoy more rights and freedoms than citizens in the rest of the Imperium, and probably see themselves for all of that as "better" than their fellow humans.

If you add in indoctranation techniques/mind implants and millenia of society belief systems you will find that serfs would feel very honoured to be in that position. To the serf they are working for what their world's society thinks of as mythical beings that fight for the god emperor in the heavens (imagine how a devote christian would react if a angel asked them to work in heaven)

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
The codex indicates that they are supposed to at any rate.

Where?

They are depicted as viewing humans, especially guardsmen, as equals as long as they are valorous.

 Melissia wrote:
They are depicted as viewing humans, especially guardsmen, as equals as long as they are valorous.

The valor of a slave is great indeed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They are depicted as viewing humans, especially guardsmen, as equals as long as they are valorous.

The valor of a slave is great indeed.

When those serfs are manning the guns on their spaceships and such... or even surviving living with the rambunctious and drunken Space Wolves for long enough... yeah.

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They are depicted as viewing humans, especially guardsmen, as equals as long as they are valorous.

The valor of a slave is great indeed.

When those serfs are manning the guns on their spaceships and such... or even surviving living with the rambunctious and drunken Space Wolves for long enough... yeah.

Void dragon, you seem to not understand the mindset these people have, just like the 12 year old boys that enter the trails to become marines for a human to become a serf for their chapter would be a dream. They would do work for great beings they have idolised all their lives.

If you look out on the IoM in a human empire made up of slaves (no one has a real choice what they do) the life of a serf is alot better than most.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They are depicted as viewing humans, especially guardsmen, as equals as long as they are valorous.

The valor of a slave is great indeed.

One's legal status has little to do with personal valour.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They are depicted as viewing humans, especially guardsmen, as equals as long as they are valorous.

The valor of a slave is great indeed.

When those serfs are manning the guns on their spaceships and such... or even surviving living with the rambunctious and drunken Space Wolves for long enough... yeah.

Void dragon, you seem to not understand the mindset these people have, just like the 12 year old boys that enter the trails to become marines for a human to become a serf for their chapter would be a dream. They would do work for great beings they have idolised all their lives.

If you look out on the IoM in a human empire made up of slaves (no one has a real choice what they do) the life of a serf is alot better than most.

This is important to note.

Everyone in the Imperium is a slave/servant/serf, more or less. Just because the fluff gives them the name "Chapter Serfs" doesn't mean they are automatically subjected to harsher, or worse conditions than anyone else. For the most part, like it's been suggested, and I was implying with my first post, being a "Serf" has wildly different connotations, and "Serf" is the generic term anyway. Not all Chapters may even call them that, and the life of an Ultramarines or Salamanders serf might be significantly different than one working for the Minotaurs or Flesh Tearers or Space Sharks.

But make no mistake. Just like the concept of "Chapter Serf" can be misleading, there are no "free men" in the Imperium.

Some serfs are failed aspirants and the treatment of these can vary hugely - some now serve with honour - others are despised as failures. Despite the Salamanders devotion to protecting humanity its clear from the BL novels they have no mercy on those who think themselves worthy of joining the Chapter - another reason for their slow recovery.

Astartes need humans and servitors to make the Chapter function for manning starships to all the menial jobs and many logistical tasks.

but best answer already given - "it varies.... "

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

This is proven every single time a dictator comes into power and begins abusing it's people. Heck there are plenty of people in my country (supposedly the beacon of freedom on the planet) that willingly try to abdicate the responsibilities of their freedom and turn it over to the government so that they don't have to be responsible. Personally, I think that is insane but I certainly recognize that many people simply just want to be told what to do.

Depends on who your talking about, I don't think the fact that I want hurricane victims to taken better care of and wanting banksters corporate predators to have to obey the say laws as everyone else makes me a wanna be slave.

Yes, but when you start requiring all the serfs to give up about the stubbers they keep in their sleeping cubicle and then funnel them to the bald dudes in purple robes, it might make them rightfully suspicious.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This is important to note.

Everyone in the Imperium is a slave/servant/serf, more or less.
-----snip-----
But make no mistake. Just like the concept of "Chapter Serf" can be misleading, there are no "free men" in the Imperium.

Not that our RW history isn't full of societies where thing we now associate with word "freedom" was very foreign, and bein' "free" in modern meaning of the word meant being outcast. Of course most of these "everybody serves" societies were formed under huge pressure from much more "free" barbarian neighbors....usually with lethal ultimate consequences for barbarians.