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 Homer S wrote:


If you believe that the Apothecary can take an upgrade meant for a Veteran, then look at the entry for Veteran Squads. can a Sergeant swap his Boltgun for a Flamer? He is in a Veteran Squad.

Homer

Same story for me. I know it reads "any model" and "one veteran" but it can be interpreted as "any veteran" and "one model" . It all comes down to the dispute about veteran that is upgraded to sergeant/champion/apothecary is still technically a veteran or he looses this status.

For me, as for now it is now settled any way, too many for and against. Waiting for new leads or official statement.

As an aside, the 4th ed DA codex did allow for the Banner Bearer/Apothecary in a DW/RW squad to take upgrades, however that was FAQ'd to be allowed.

I'll point you all in the direction of the BA FAQ, which has the closest precedent - simply swap Apothecary for Sanguinary Novitiate and Command Squad for Honour Guard and it's exactly the same, so even closer than the examples already given.

Q: Can the Sanguinary Novitiate in the Honour Guard take the
upgrades that are available to the Honour Guard? (p84)
A: No.

As if to REALLY nail this on the head, there are other units within the Codex itself that use both "any (modelnamehere)" and "any model", meaning there's a marked difference between the two. The Deathwing Command Squad and Scout Squad are good examples. So even if you completely ignore precedent, the Codex itself defines a difference between named models and any models in a given unit.

The problem with the so called precidence is that the Painboy is stated as what he gets. He has to replace slugga and choppa for the irty syringe and dok tools.

Now lets look at the apoth. The only thing you have to do is make sure you have a bolt pistol at the time you upgrade him to apoth. Because you have to swap his pistol for a narthecium. So buying anything for him is fine as long as he has that pistol to swap.

Thats my take on it.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
The problem with the so called precidence is that the Painboy is stated as what he gets. He has to replace slugga and choppa for the irty syringe and dok tools.

Now lets look at the apoth. The only thing you have to do is make sure you have a bolt pistol at the time you upgrade him to apoth. Because you have to swap his pistol for a narthecium. So buying anything for him is fine as long as he has that pistol to swap.

Thats my take on it.

What difference does it make that the Nob swaps 2 weapons for 2 things while the apothecary only swaps 1 for 1? That shouldn't be the limiting factor in the Ork FAQ for why they don't allow him to take items that don't require the swapping of weapons.

Basically no, you are wrong, and this is the most ridiculous reasoning anyone has used so far in this thread.

Um excuse me. You don't have to be rude.

The Painboy doesn't swap anything at all. That is the wargear he is given. And if you look the painboy has his own options. He can take grot orderlys and give Cybork to all the members. It is headed by a big bold print that says Painboy.

The apoth has options before he is an apoth. So how is that ridiulous? And from my understanding all the options are legal for all to take as long as they fulfill the requirement of said upgrade. From this codex or any of them.

So thanks for your opinion.

Because your argument is like saying that the Nob who is a painboy bought the stuff before becoming a painboy and thus is allowed the wargear, however, the only time order does not necessarily matter is when any model in the unit can take the option.

No I am not saying the painboy can change. That is why it is FAQ'd. The only way you can take a painboy is if you have slugga and choppa. So you can't have a nob with a PK upgrade to a painboy, as he no longer has the slugga choppa that is needed.

But with the apoth he can take something else like the stormbolter that he wants. Because you can swap a bolt pistol and or/ Chainsword for a stormbolter. If it said to change both bolt pistol and CC weapon for the narthicium then I would be against it but that is not the case.

Ok so the same with the Deathwing terminators options. Can a TH/SS or LC terminator take a CML? Well the answer is yes as all it says is 1 in every 5 can take a CML.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
The problem with the so called precidence is that the Painboy is stated as what he gets. He has to replace slugga and choppa for the irty syringe and dok tools.

Now lets look at the apoth. The only thing you have to do is make sure you have a bolt pistol at the time you upgrade him to apoth. Because you have to swap his pistol for a narthecium. So buying anything for him is fine as long as he has that pistol to swap.

Thats my take on it.

What difference does it make that the Nob swaps 2 weapons for 2 things while the apothecary only swaps 1 for 1? That shouldn't be the limiting factor in the Ork FAQ for why they don't allow him to take items that don't require the swapping of weapons.

Basically no, you are wrong, and this is the most ridiculous reasoning anyone has used so far in this thread.

Are you the principal from 'Billy Madison'?

Jeez...

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
No I am not saying the painboy can change. That is why it is FAQ'd. The only way you can take a painboy is if you have slugga and choppa. So you can't have a nob with a PK upgrade to a painboy, as he no longer has the slugga choppa that is needed.

Which doesn't even begin to address the FAQ about the Painboy where he is said to be unable to take upgrades that don't replace his slugga or choppa even though he is a Nob before he is a Painboy, and even though he will still have a slugga and choppa to replace.

It's the exact same situation, your arbitrary distinction between the two doesn't even exist.

Because the painboy has his own options listed,( In Bold ) that is why he is only limited to those. Seems pretty clear to me.

The new box you buy the Deathwing Command squad in shows storm bolter and Nath for the apoth.




Edit: Actually, NM. You're talking about normal space marine armoured command squads.

 Super Ready wrote:
I'll point you all in the direction of the BA FAQ, which has the closest precedent - simply swap Apothecary for Sanguinary Novitiate and Command Squad for Honour Guard and it's exactly the same, so even closer than the examples already given.

Q: Can the Sanguinary Novitiate in the Honour Guard take the
upgrades that are available to the Honour Guard? (p84)
A: No.

As if to REALLY nail this on the head, there are other units within the Codex itself that use both "any (modelnamehere)" and "any model", meaning there's a marked difference between the two. The Deathwing Command Squad and Scout Squad are good examples. So even if you completely ignore precedent, the Codex itself defines a difference between named models and any models in a given unit.

Yes but the difference between this and the DA is the unit composition. The Honour guard is 4 Honour guard and 1 Sanguinary Novitiate, not 5 Honour guard and one can upgrade to a Sanguinary Novitiate.

The order you take upgrades is irrelevant. Being no way to prove that you took the upgrade before you changed to an apoth aside, you exchange the models "type" when you upgrade leaving the end result an illegal model to upgrade any further.

Also a bullet list (those black dots) are usually read top to bottom like a numbered list... in which case you would upgrade to an apoth before weapon upgrades for veterans. Of course we are assuming that someone writing for GW has any knowledge of punctuation or sentence structure, a rather large assumption. Sometimes i think we are luck they remember to spell their own name correctly.



That being said almost every model ever produced for the apoth has a pistol in the same hand as the narthecium so im guessing this will be FAQ to make more sense eventually.

I submitted a similarly worded question to GW. Naturally I got the standard thanks for asking, it might end up in a FAQ. If we were to use the old 5th edition FAQ regarding DW/RW Apothecaries, it is definitely legal. Furthermore, the same FAQ also specifies that any Scout includes the Scout Sergeant. That being said (including the arguments being made to allow a DW Terminator to take a TH/SS and CML, I'm starting to think it might actually be legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azrell wrote:
Also a bullet list (those black dots) are usually read top to bottom like a numbered list... in which case you would upgrade to an apoth before weapon upgrades for veterans.

Except in the case for Orks, where the Nob is at the end and is allowed to take wargear presented before him in this list. I agree that GW seems to be making a transition to treat the lists in a set order (See Furioso Dreadnought).

Doesn't the Apothecary on the front of the Deathwing Command Squad box have a storm bolter?

 Infreak wrote:
Doesn't the Apothecary on the front of the Deathwing Command Squad box have a storm bolter?

We are talking PA one. DW apothecary swaps PF instead of bolter.

Oops

Here's the thing. Nobs are allowed to purchase power klaws, I believe every nob in the codex. They needed the faq because the wording for swaps in shoota squads.

Apothecaries are not permitted to purchase storm bolters. You're attempting to use a timing loophole to end up with one.

Well until this so called "timing" issue is fixed I don't see a reason why you can't take an apoth with that storm bolter. As there are no rules that prevent this ATM.

Honestly, what is the point of making an upgrade unavailable to the Apothecary if you can just get around it by taking the upgrades in a specific order?

But what upgrades are unavailable to him?

My understanding is he is in all respects a veteran. Its just he has a special role as an apothecary. So why shouldn't he have access to the same stuff they do?

can the banner bearer also take different weapons? or is he only limited to the banner? Its really all the same thing IMHO. Sure it is written a bit different. But no rules are being broke by giving the apothecary different wargear.

So basically if he couldn't have any other wargear, he would have a chainsword and a narthecium. No shooting weapon because he has to replace his bolt pistol with the narthscium. Seems kinda wierd to me.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
But what upgrades are unavailable to him?

My understanding is he is in all respects a veteran. Its just he has a special role as an apothecary. So why shouldn't he have access to the same stuff they do?

A different name and a different stat line means he is no longer a veteran when upgraded.

THE ANSWER IS NO THE APOTH CAN NOT TAKE UPGRADES LIKE A VETERAN UNLESS FAQD.

It might not be the answer you want to hear but that's how the rules are written You are more than welcome to change or modify the rules in your games any way you see fit. But as written in the codex an apoth can not take upgrades as he is not a veteran, just like the libby dread in BAs cant, just like the space marine cant take upgrades that a Sargent can, just like justicar thrawn cant take upgrades like the justicar he replaces. NO.

and just in case you want to drag some codex from 4th ed with an FAQ from the beginning of 5th edition... ill say it one more time NO.

I honestly don't care one way or the other. But I see no rules that explains a timing on how things are purchased nor do you. So as far as I see it it can be done until there is a FAQ that explains it either way.

Just because you say it doesn't work does not tell me anything. Unless you are some kind of employee for GW.

I do agree that a FAQ needs to be made to yeah or nah it, but until then its really a matter of opinion right or wrong.

You didn't answer my question though. Why would an option not be available to a model after you upgrade him to an Apothecary if you could get around it by giving it to the model before you upgrade him? You don't get points for clever army building so why would GW make an option illegal one way yet legal the other way?

What I want to know is why GW decided Nartheciums require you to drop a weapon now

 Ghaz wrote:
You didn't answer my question though. Why would an option not be available to a model after you upgrade him to an Apothecary if you could get around it by giving it to the model before you upgrade him? You don't get points for clever army building so why would GW make an option illegal one way yet legal the other way?

I honestly don't know. But seems to me that they should have written it better if that was there Intention. Especially when they have models equiped ways that "you can't equip them"
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat860007a&prodId=prod1140227 In this example you will see an Apothecary holding a bolt pistol of which you have to drop to get the Narthicium. In the Dark Angels HQ section.

The rule is written just fine. You however have no support for your claims that you can take an illegal option for a model by playing around with the 'timing' of upgrades.

Is this further clearified by the use of 'any model in the unit may swap' text styles used in most situations where even the Sergeant, Exarch(...etc) can take the listed weargear?