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Basic question: Can I give a DA Command Squad veteran a Storm bolter (replacing his Chainsword) then upgrade him to an Apothecary? That only requires giving up the Bolt Pistol for the Narthecium.

No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

But if he purchase's stuff before and then upgrades him to an apoth I don't see the problem. As long as he still has the right wargear to swap for said upgrade. Remember he starts as a veteran now, unlike the space marine dex where he is all ready an apoth.

At least that is my thinking on the matter

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

Wrong-- see the FAQ ruling for Shoota Boy Nobz taking power klaws.

This move is totally fine, OP.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

Wrong-- see the FAQ ruling for Shoota Boy Nobz taking power klaws.

This move is totally fine, OP.

Wrong-- see the FAQ ruling for Painboyz in Nobz units

 Kingsley wrote:
[Wrong-- see the FAQ ruling for Shoota Boy Nobz taking power klaws..

Which was an Ork only FAQ and made total sense for Orks even if it broke the rules.

I don't see the problem. 1 veteran replaces his chainsword with a storm bolter. The same veteran then replaces his bolt pistol with a narthecium. There is nothing in the command squad rules that states a particular order for taking upgrades.

When the wargear is restricted to a specific model (such as a Nob or Furioso Dreadnought) then you cannot take options and then upgrade to a different model type. If the option is for any model you can take the option prior to upgrading.

 balsak_da_mighty wrote:
But if he purchase's stuff before and then upgrades him to an apoth I don't see the problem. As long as he still has the right wargear to swap for said upgrade. Remember he starts as a veteran now, unlike the space marine dex where he is all ready an apoth.

At least that is my thinking on the matter

See, this is how I see it, mostly because there are no hard and fast rules on *when* upgrades are taken.

Obviously, an Apothecary can't take a Storm bolter, because that is an option only available to Vets, but there is nothing stopping a Vet that has a Storm bolter (and the required Bolt pistol) from becoming an Apothecary and keeping his Storm bolter.

As I said, it appears to be GWs stance that if any model may exchange X for Y then you can do it any order. For example see the Ork FAQ regarding Nobz and Boyz. If, however, only a certain model may trade X for Y then if one models is upgraded to a different model (such as upgrading a Furioso Dreadnought to Furioso Librarian), then you cannot take the options.

 Flinty wrote:
I don't see the problem. 1 veteran replaces his chainsword with a storm bolter. The same veteran then replaces his bolt pistol with a narthecium. There is nothing in the command squad rules that states a particular order for taking upgrades.

I think that makes as much sense as buying a Trukk for 10 ork boyz, then upping the unit size to 30. Totally legal with a sequence view, totally illegal if you check requirements last.

-Matt

 Happyjew wrote:
As I said, it appears to be GWs stance that if any model may exchange X for Y then you can do it any order. For example see the Ork FAQ regarding Nobz and Boyz. If, however, only a certain model may trade X for Y then if one models is upgraded to a different model (such as upgrading a Furioso Dreadnought to Furioso Librarian), then you cannot take the options.

So your saying that you don't think that it would work, or is allowed?

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

If he is no longer a Veteran then what is he and what unit does he belong to?

The Unit Composition is 5 veterans, if this model is no longer a Veteran then can he still be part of the unit?


by that token, can the Champion take a plasma pistol?
or a Storm Shield, or Combi Weapon?

40k-noob wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

If he is no longer a Veteran then what is he and what unit does he belong to?

The Unit Composition is 5 veterans, if this model is no longer a Veteran then can he still be part of the unit?


by that token, can the Champion take a plasma pistol?
or a Storm Shield, or Combi Weapon?

The units initial composition is 5 Veterans, when he takes the Narthecium he ceases to be a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, thus why there is a separate stat line listed for an Apothecary, if this wasn't the case then neither the Apothecary or the Champion would be characters and the Champion wouldn't get WS 5, this isn't a new things, tons of codices function this way.

No, Champions also cannot take weapon upgrades, they aren't Veterans, they are Company Champions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think that makes as much sense as buying a Trukk for 10 ork boyz, then upping the unit size to 30. Totally legal with a sequence view, totally illegal if you check requirements last.

-Matt

You check the requirements at all times, there's no set time that the requirements are checked, your list can never become illegal.

You can buy upgrades in any order but it doesn't change this fact, you can never "loophole" your way into equipping models with things they aren't legally allowed to be equipped with.

 Happyjew wrote:
As I said, it appears to be GWs stance that if any model may exchange X for Y then you can do it any order. For example see the Ork FAQ regarding Nobz and Boyz. If, however, only a certain model may trade X for Y then if one models is upgraded to a different model (such as upgrading a Furioso Dreadnought to Furioso Librarian), then you cannot take the options.

I'm gonna have to go with this stance as well.

40k-noob wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
No, he can't take any upgrades that are only granted to Veterans, because once he takes the Narthecium he stops being a Veteran and becomes an Apothecary, and Apothecaries aren't allowed to take those upgrades.

If he is no longer a Veteran then what is he and what unit does he belong to?

The Unit Composition is 5 veterans, if this model is no longer a Veteran then can he still be part of the unit?


by that token, can the Champion take a plasma pistol?
or a Storm Shield, or Combi Weapon?

Technically, if you take the upgrades (and leave the Chainsword) before becoming the Company Champion, then it seems to me that it should work.

This is why, I think that order may matter.

FenixZero wrote:
Technically, if you take the upgrades (and leave the Chainsword) before becoming the Company Champion, then it seems to me that it should work.

This is why, I think that order may matter.

Technically, as soon as he becomes a company champion, any upgrades which were not permitted to be taken by company champions become invalid for him and your list is illegal if he has taken them.

You can take upgrades in any order, you still can't combine them in an illegal way.

There are 2 FAQs which set this precedent, there is no FAQ which sets a precedent of allowing such an upgraded model to take options prior to his upgrade he would not later be allowed to take and retain them.

There is simply no grounds for trying to justify giving veteran only upgrades to a champion or apothecary.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

FenixZero wrote:
Technically, if you take the upgrades (and leave the Chainsword) before becoming the Company Champion, then it seems to me that it should work.

This is why, I think that order may matter.

Technically, as soon as he becomes a company champion, any upgrades which were not permitted to be taken by company champions become invalid for him and your list is illegal if he has taken them.

You can take upgrades in any order, you still can't combine them in an illegal way.

There are 2 FAQs which set this precedent, there is no FAQ which sets a precedent of allowing such an upgraded model to take options prior to his upgrade he would not later be allowed to take and retain them.

There is simply no grounds for trying to justify giving veteran only upgrades to a champion or apothecary.

What FAQ's are you referring to?

Spleen seems to have common sense on his side. "I wait until AFTER I buy the Storm Bolter to make him an Apothecary" seems right up there with "Mephiston's power never says it ends, so it must last all game" and "the Assault Vehicle rule says I can assault in the turn I disembark, so if you wreck my Land Raider I can assault you during YOUR assault phase." I don't think I would allow this in a game I was playing in.

40k-noob wrote:
What FAQ's are you referring to?

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

Q: Can a Furioso Librarian take additional wargear (such as extra armour)? (p29)
A: No.

Oh goodness, this again,

So this is a very similar argument people are using for TH/SS terminators with a CML.

If people are using other factions FAQ's as a means of finding permission... The Ork FAQ allows you to by example of the Nob + powerKlaw and the BA FAQ prevents you based on the Furioso Librarian.

Until GW writes something addressing the DA codex more thoroughly we're not going to have a cut and dry answer.


I don't have my codex in front of me, but unless the upgrade to apothecary mentions something about replacing wargear with a Narthecium I think you can buy X and then upgrade to Y.

you can not take items in any order when building a list, its irreverent what order you write something down! Your end result must be a legal set up.

Azrell wrote:
you can not take items in any order when building a list, its irreverent what order you write something down! Your end result must be a legal set up.

You might want to check the Ork FAQ.
Spoiler - you're wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

Azrell wrote:
you can not take items in any order when building a list, its irreverent what order you write something down! Your end result must be a legal set up.

You might want to check the Ork FAQ.
Spoiler - you're wrong.

You mean this question:

Ork FAQ wrote:Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,
Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

Just kidding. In all seriousness, GW dose appear to have a stance. they just don't outright say it. See my other posts for that stance.

In addition to all the other reasons you can't do this posted by everyone else, this would never fly in a tournament setting. In a friendly game, honestly who cares? But brass tacks, this would be illegal in a current tournament setting. I'm not siding one way or the other, I'm simply telling you what reality is. So you can play it your way with the storm bolter or play it with a tournament standard list.....either way, how you play with your toys is between you and your opponent.

MadmanMSU wrote:
In addition to all the other reasons you can't do this posted by everyone else, this would never fly in a tournament setting. In a friendly game, honestly who cares? But brass tacks, this would be illegal in a current tournament setting. I'm not siding one way or the other, I'm simply telling you what reality is. So you can play it your way with the storm bolter or play it with a tournament standard list.....either way, how you play with your toys is between you and your opponent.

You seem so sure of that. I'm pretty sure you don't speak for every tournament out there.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
What FAQ's are you referring to?

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
A: No.

Q: Can a Furioso Librarian take additional wargear (such as extra armour)? (p29)
A: No.

The problem with those is that is talking about what you can't do after the change to a different type, and I would agree with you.

It seems that I will have to play it on a game by game basis and ask my opponents.

What GW has done is give two different situations. They both point to timing but there is a subtle difference:

1) Painboy in Nobz: Nob cannot take options and then upgrade to Painboy.

2) Nob in Boyz: Nob can take a power klaw, followed by an all models option, for which he no longer has the wargear to be swapped.

In both cases, the option is legal for the new model type. Let's apply this to the DA Apothecary.

Veteran takes Storm Bolter then becomes Apothecary.

Is a Storm Bolter legal for an Apothecary? No, therefore this is not legal.

Homer

 Homer S wrote:


Is a Storm Bolter legal for an Apothecary? No, therefore this is not legal.

Homer

And this is written where...?


Same thing is here with a shield at company champion: would be kinda stupid if regular vets could run around with storm shields and proud company champion choosen for duels blahblahblah with a simple combat shield...

vitalis09 wrote:

 Homer S wrote:


Is a Storm Bolter legal for an Apothecary? No, therefore this is not legal.

Homer

And this is written where...?


Same thing is here with a shield at company champion: would be kinda stupid if regular vets could run around with storm shields and proud company champion choosen for duels blahblahblah with a simple combat shield...

Codex: DA, Command Squad: Apothecary and Company Champion are separate model types within a Command Squad and are not the same as a Veteran. If this is not the case, then a Painboy would be able to take upgrades meant for Nobz and they clearly cannot. As to the Champion, in the absence of a FAQ/errata they are not a Veteran either.

If you believe that the Apothecary can take an upgrade meant for a Veteran, then look at the entry for Veteran Squads. can a Sergeant swap his Boltgun for a Flamer? He is in a Veteran Squad.

Homer