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So, I am in the process of painting/assembling my Wraithseer, and I think he should be good to go for a game next week. Single FOC, 2k points or so.

Now, this is the list I have come up with using what I have at my disposal. I know, I don't have a 10 man wraithguard unit, as I only own 5 WG. I know, it is a less than optimal use of the spiritseer, but I want to get a few games in with this bad boy. Ill get another 5 guard when finances allow(might be a while, things are $$) so I am stuck with that. Thing is, I get a mobile unit as I cant afford warp spiders for the theme I want.

The idea is putting 5 of the toughest MC's on the board, and just wreaking absolute havoc. Bolters bounce off, lascannons need 3's. Wraithseer will be casting FNP on himself(4+ with his ability) so he is not going anywhere fast between T8, 3+/5++, FNP(4+), plus he is going to be fortuned. I know I only have 3 scoring units as well, but I am okay with that. I just have to be careful, and hopefully the wraiths can wreck havoc and let the troops hide.

I could go with any weapon(I magnetized) and the D-cannon is amazing, but I cant find points to spare. Scatter laser is cheap and cheerful(He could also swap a lord for a gun) Eldrad and baron roll with the clowns.

Without further ado.

HQ
Eldrad-210
Wraith seer, Scatter laser-205
Elite
HarlequinsX10: 8x Kisses, Shadowseer w/kiss, Death Jester-256
WraithguardX5: Warlock w/conceal, singing spear. Wave serpent w/TL shuriken cannon,shuriken cannon-328

Troop
GuardiansX10: Scatter laser-95
GuardiansX10: Scatter laser-95

Heavy Support
Wraithlord: EML, Lance, 2xFlamers-155
Wraithlord: EML, Lance, 2xFlamers-155
Wraithlord: EML, Lance, 2xFlamers-155

Allies-Dark Eldar
Baron Saythonyx-105
WytchesX5 with Haywire grenades: Venom w/dual splinter cannons, night shields-135
Talos Pain Engine: TL liquefier gun-105
1999

I will also post my proposed list with a full 10 guard, coming soon to a table near you

HQ
Eldrad-210
Wraith seer, D-Cannon-225

Elite
HarlequinsX6: 5x Kisses, Shadowseer w/kiss-162

Troop
WraithguardX10: Warlock w/conceal-390
GuardiansX10 Scatter laser-95
GuardiansX10: Scatter laser-95

Heavy Support
Wraithlord: EML, Lance, 2xFlamers-155
Wraithlord: EML, Lance, 2xFlamers-155
Wraithlord: EML, Lance, 2xFlamers-155

Allies-Dark Eldar
Baron Saythonyx-105
WytchesX5 with Haywire grenades: Venom w/dual splinter cannons, night shields-135
Talos Pain Engine: TL liquefier gun, TL heat lance-115
1998

Here baron and eldrad go with the wraith, clowns in the rear for counter attacking.

Also, before you point out the lack of AA, I plan on ignoring fliers. They are not spammed in my meta(1-2 usually) so I just ignore them and run the ground game. If I have nothing better to do, guided wraithlords it is.

Let me know what you think.

First of all - the Wraithseer is a boss. Soaks up fire like no ones business. Putting the D-Cannon on it is probably the only improvement as I get a tonne of mileage out of it (Wraithseers D-Cannon in my last game alone took down a Necron Monolith, D-Lord, 2 wraiths, 8 warriors, Cryptek and Quad-Gun).

My standard tactic is to roll the Lords with the Seer as the shambling wall of death.

I like list 2 a bit more personally; mainly the staying power of the WG in a 10 man blob. My 5 man blob tends to get focused pretty hard (probably because my Farseer is there too).

Have you thought about using the Mymeara craftworld FOC? You can't use Eldrad (as it requires you to use Bel-Annath) but you gain a 4th HS slot for another Lord.

Finally; I like the inclusion of guardians. The boys are highly under rated. My last game (I had pretty hot dice) 1 of my squads managed to beat a tomb spider in CC (not sure how). But a 100 point squad took down a lot more than their worth; so glad to see someone who uses them.

But yes - List 2 and rock that wall of wraiths!

Good to hear. I will look into some D-Cannon options, and he will be getting plenty of play test. My main concern is the range, as I am really used to 36" or 48", but the thing is well worth the points(and unlike the heavy support d-cannons, on a very survivable platform). But 50 points for a short ranged gun is a hard pill to swallow.

You and I are like minded on our standard tactics. Both lists feature a fullout wraithcastle with clowns to keep any assaulty chumps away.

I will look into bel-annath. 4 lords and a seer....that is just stupid(I would have to buy a 4th lord, but the sheer lulz is amazing).

My guardians once killed typhus(6th edition typhus) and two of his termiantors single handed. People knock them, but for what you get they are good. No, they are not new dark angel tac squads or grey hunters, but for a 4th ed codex, they can still be used to this day. I am used to having the avatar so I can really castle up and they fight till the last(sometimes throw a conceal lock in front to give the clowns and wraithlords cover). But off on their own they can do fine. They are my bread and butter, and I refuse to buy jetbikes till I see a new codex or get them for a steal of a deal.


List two is the ultimate goal, list one is really to test my Spiritseer. Thanks for the input!

D-cannon is 40 points; not 50. Wraithseer with D-cannon is 225 total. A tad pricey for an Eldar HQ but him plus Bel-Annath (175) is 400 + 400 worth of Wraithguard + 500+ of Lords and you're laughing at your enemies (Tau are the best) when you say they need 5's and 6's to wound you.

The only draw back with Bel-Annath is he doesn't get the tastey double cast of Eldrad. You get 3 set codex powers (Eldritch, Mind War and Fortune) or 3 rolls on what you want out of Telepathy, Div or Pyro. Personally I go pyro and hope for spontaneous combustion (lulz vs Tau pathfinders and the like), Inferno (yet more lulz vs cover whores) and Fire Shield (4+ cover save + 2D6 hammer of wrath hits vs anything that charges you).

I tend to go D-heavy - I like insta killing stuff on 6's and perma wounds on 2's. It really makes MC heavy armies cry (hi nids). I will be running 2-3 Lords + a warp hunter (and a Fire Storm if versus flyer armies) with the 10 guard and seer (and Bel-Annath) at 2000 points. That combined with the slightly high priced but very rude and insanely powerful Shadow Spectres is rather nasty. A full squad with Exarch and upgrades is 247 points, but Ghostlight = 36" S10 AP2 with rerolls on the scatter dice, or versus hoards of gaunts 5 S5 AP4 blasts and 2 S7 AP2 hits, and versus MEQ 5 S6 AP3 shots and 2 S7 AP2 shots. All able to move 12" shoot and move 6" in the assault phase (6" move guaranteed).

Just a thought to add some more mobile shooty power into the army. Spectres although expensive ($ and points) are really nasty units and with their 4++ save from 12"+ away (reverting to 5++ inside 12"), they tend to last (that and all the advancing wraiths are much bigger issues for your opponent).

OH! 40 points, well I can make room for that NO problem. This, this changes everything.

I always liked fire shield(very underrated) but I would be looking for invisibility for 2+ cover saves. Spontaneous is funny, but I question the outright validity of any power that can be denied.

D-Weapons are stupid good, I am a huge fan, but again, I thought the d-cannon was overpriced, but for 40 that is looking pretty slick. I think I will drop a clown or something for the cannon. Yeah, it is happening.

Specters could be fun, but I am a serious fan of warp spiders(one of my favorite units in the game). They are my johnny on the spot S6, and are usually MVP's in any game I use them. Spiders are one of my favorite animals, and as a biologist I really get the fluff of agressive defense and quick lethal strikes. Specters, maybe next codex, but spiders have been my go to fast attack since day 1.

Spontaneous is hilarious. Insta kill 1 pathfinder which blows up and kills the squad. 1 warp charge and 1 squad down, NEXT!

Usually I have a better chance of rolling 666 on my witnessing psychic tests than someone succeeding a deny the witch roll.

I get the infatuation of the warp spiders. I personally just love the look of the spectres models. The Tau player I went up against recently was looking at them adoringly whilst they shot his hammerhead "Oh they're so delicate and adorable and OMFG my hammerhead!" And yoyoing in and out of LOS blocking cover is a dick move but quite effective.

OH 1 other thing : the wraithseers greater spiritseer ability. Remember this at all times (now on a fluro post it note on my army list) any wraith unit including the seer within 12" has their targets cover save lowered by 1. (5+ becomes 6+ etc). This is possibly he most brutal thing about the seer

I just re read spontaneous....WOW, that is a good power for 1 warp charge. Fire shield is also pretty sexy.

I actually rolled triple sixes twice last game(with one wound sneaking through Eldrad's ghosthelm), and had 2 dooms denied, so your luck is better than mine in that regard.

Specters are cool, but again, it is a new codex dust settling thing before I commit the cash. My spiders shoot hammerheads and broadsides in the rear, but JSJ is something I am used to, being that my other army is battlesuit spam tau.

OH, I am well aware of that -1 to cover saves. One of the reasons I want the wraithseer is so I can negate silly gimmicks like stealth and smoke when my wraithlords need it. I can't tell you how many times my wraithlords dropped the ball(I named them the three stooges; larry moe and curly written on their bases) so they need all the help they can get with getting a shot to do something. I really want to wipe the smug off of the guard player behind the ADL who can pass a 4+ left and right. Eat my plasma missiles, and get pinned.

syranas wrote:
My standard tactic is to roll the Lords with the Seer as the shambling wall of death.

+1 for this.
I run similar - the

syranas wrote:
shambling wall of death

is a pain to take down.
The main problem with lists like these is manu...manourv...speed.
If you go up against a fast army, you could end up out manouvered.
The d-cannon is fantastic on the wraith seer - watch how many units don't come near the wraithguard to assault.

I tend to cast 4+FNP on the wraithseer, till a wraithlord takes a couple of wounds. Then stick it on that one and opponants go for a different lord - you can force wounds to go all round the lords before one drops.
I like the 2nd list - 10 wraithguard as troops = you see that objective? That one there? Thats mine.

I play a very similar list though I like to use Scorpions in place of clowns. However I'd recommend against Bel-Annath purely because he doesn't come with Runes of Warding, however if you know you won't be facing psykers then it shouldn't be a problem.

Also as a funny little tactic you could try is fielding a Wriathlord with just a sword and dual flamers and try running him straight towards the enemy in a very "Distraction Carinfex" way. He will die but not before making your oppenent waste a turn (if you are lucky, two) taking him down depending on their level of long range anti-tank.

Another option would be to use that fourth HS slot (if you take Bel) to use a Warp Hunter. It is quite possibly the best thing I have ever added to my army as it draws insane amounts of fire that would be killing your lords as you move up the table (ALWAYS keep it in cover) and will absolutely annihilate any infantry it shoots at. Oddly enough I don't find it to be as good against tanks as it seems but that's mainly because it's a single large blast but if you have Wraithguard then they can take care of the tank

I like list 2 the best. 10 wraithguard beats the snot out of 10 harlequins.

A couple of core questions... what are the allies doing for you? I am perceiving they are there for anti-tank. The Talos is there just to add another MC.

A suggestion would be to remake your list as pure eldar.
5 - Swooping hawks can do the same as your wyches.
Warp spiders give you some speed and firepower.
EJB units would provide you with speed and the ability to take/contest objectives.

The only thing I see you are losing is the Talos.

The Baron is there to give the wraithguard hit and run I assume.

The only way to do that in the eldar 'dex would be to take Baharroth - who would be two thirds of the allies cost on his own.
It would give the wraithguard a 2+ character to tank with, but overall I think it wouldn't be as effective.

@Dr.Serling

Have you thought about running corsair allies?
The corsair prince gets a 2++ (which can go on the front of the wraithguard for tanking purposes)
He also gets to drop a str 9 lance orbital barrage/make your enemies shooting phase night fighting.
Just to think about if you've not already considered it.

No hit and run though.

The baron is an absolute steal, and fairly important.
He gives wraithguard a 2++ in front, stealth, offensive and defensive grenades, hit and run, and more high S attacks on the charge. Factor in +1 to going first, and that he is so freaking cheap.

Haywitches in a venom outperform hawks any day of the week. Hawks have to deep strike in, throw a single nade and hope to survive. The venom is the big win, the wytches are icing on the cake.

Talos is another MC. A T7 MC. Target saturation.

I think warp hunters are incredible, but I am avoiding fielding mech to negate the effectiveness of meltacide and other AT. The venom is an exception because It dies to bolters so I could care less. If I got a 4th slot with bel, I would take another wraithlord. Running a lord with a sword is a parlor trick. They are not all that effective in CC, and can be avoided by faster lists. Good in small games, but In a bigger game I need that Survivabale AT platform.

Corsair prince is an interesting idea.

Corsairs would be an interesting addition. Although you wouldn't get the Talos; the Prince would benefit from Fortune as they are considered Eldar.

Personally the wytches as AT I find are quite out of their element in the list though. Most (if not all) juicy armoured targets will have been ripped open by the lords by the time the girls managed to walk across the board (assuming the venom dies pretty fast).

As for speed issues - the army doesn't need speed. Granted playing on a 6'x8' board will screw you over, but a 6'x4' will be fine. My local GW plays on 4'x4' so I kinda laugh at my army being slow but being able to walk a guardian squad across the table for line breaker.

I get that a lot of people think that speed + eldar = the be all and end all; however the wraith wall strategy sacrifices speed for T6-8 units that just don't die. Yes it is possible to run rings around the army if you are very good. However the shooting of the seer and Lords is 24"-48". Power to you if you think you can run rings around them AND stay out of firing range. The wraiths have the best non-character BS in the eldar army and a plethora of heavy weapons. You need to engage them hard and focus fire them till they're down. Flying circles around them doesn't work; they will win an attrition fight.

The biggest problem I can see for this list is poison. A DE poison spam list will hurt, a lot. Nids will hurt too, and potentially an IG hoard before you get into flaming range.

Yeah, my talos has been doing decently well the last few games. TL liquifier guns and splinter cannons help with horde control, and if the talos dies, so what? If it does anything, I am impressed.

I have been finding the wytches a mixed bag, as I can rarely get them to a heavy tank in the backfield. The venom is fantastic, and I can usually keep it alive a turn or 2. Rushing it up alone gets it killed, and I am still working on the fine points, but I am confident putting them in my list. Fragile as all getup, but in the off chance my wytches get a big nasty tank, they did their job. With plasma grenades being throwable, they can actually fight off infantry in a pinch.

Speed is not the issue so much as mobility. Some things are just hard to reach, so having the ability to be johnny on the spot can shut down a threat. 4X4 is just unfair when you can have the avatar in CC turn 2....

I understand I am not looking for speed, cause I am hard to kill, but having a mobile option is nice. I put the idea of speed out of my head when I put my serpents away once 6th hit.

DE and IG have always been THE worst matchups for footdar. I played a WAAC IG/SW list last weekend, and managed to have 3 lords still standing on turn 7.I was actually winning until turn 5 when I hit double wraithsight(again in turn 7), failed every charge( random charge range) and failed a ton of fortuned saves. Such is the game.

I have only lost to bugs twice in my life, but usually I end up beating them into paste. Just have to make sure the little ones with poison don't get on my lords. My S8 and poison takes out the big nasties, and fearless guardian bubbles, clowns, and wrist flamers on lords seem to keep the worst at bay. The doom is a pain, but short of my opponents hot dice(I once lost almost my entire army when he passed like 20 something 3++ saves against Insta gibbing weapons, one of my 2 losses) I can usually come out alright.

syranas wrote:
I get that a lot of people think that speed + eldar = the be all and end all; however the wraith wall strategy sacrifices speed for T6-8 units that just don't die. Yes it is possible to run rings around the army if you are very good. However the shooting of the seer and Lords is 24"-48". Power to you if you think you can run rings around them AND stay out of firing range. The wraiths have the best non-character BS in the eldar army and a plethora of heavy weapons. You need to engage them hard and focus fire them till they're down. Flying circles around them doesn't work; they will win an attrition fight.

It's possible to hide from wraithlords - I've seen it done.
Using a fast army and careful deployment can mitigate the shooting they put out.
Poor eldar set up can lead to wraithlords having to advance into a lot of heavy fire - on a good turn, a predator annihilator can drop a wraithlord.

During set up, if you get the deployment on a 3-4 where you fight the length of the table with objectives it's an uphill struggle with wraithwall. You need to be on the march first turn, otherwise you can easily end up with less objectives.

I run wraithwall - it's my preferred style of army list. I'm not saying 'don't take this, it's awful and will lose guaranteed against fast armies, the only true eldar army uses speed' , I'm saying 'it's a good list, have you thought about these points which I find I have to address in my lists'
It's why I tend to take GJB's - it offsets the issues wraithwall has.

I really like the use of the allies in this list.
I'd be tempted to reserve the venom and the wyches to use in a similar vein to GJB's, but with the added bonus it can actually kill something as well.

The Baron sounds great with wraithguard - I've been using karandras to add stealth and having people tell me it's waac, whereas the baron adds so much more and has no grey areas where people do that inward whistling thing....

@Dr.Serling - any chance of a bat rep once you're up and running with the wraithseer? I'd really like to see the how effective this is - and it sounds good. I was planning on allied corsairs, but the DE seem to get so much more bang for buck.

Well, your Eldar troop choice is poor. Guardians eventually run away after a few casualties. If you run Guardians, you need an Avatar so that they can walk in their fearlessness bubble.

The HS choices are also poor. Warwalkers have a much higher damage out. I currently run 3 Warwalkers with scatterlasers and 3 Warwalkers with eml's.

I dislike war walkers myself. They require too much psyker support to be useful. They also die very easily. Wraithlords are godly beasts that can destroy vehicles at range & in close combat. They can tie up squads for the entire game and gradually cut through them without dying. WL = amazing.

I don't recommend taking the death jester. It is ten points wasted since you are going to be hiding behind the wraithguard rather than shooting AND you can't take the harlequin's kiss on it/it doesn't have 2 CCW!

I do think wuestenfux is right about your troop choice options. You just don't have enough of them to score objectives in a 2k game. Go with option to. You'll be the anvil for sure and you'll be able to hold the middle with the wraithguard. I still don't think you'll have enough troops to push into the enemy's deployment for linebreaker and their objectives in there tho.

I think the list looks really fun to play, I love me sum monster mashin!

I dont think theres really anything that you'll need to change, as far as the haywyches go that would be pretty tuff trying to get them up by themselves maybe if you just work them up gradually behind cover the opponent will forget about them.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, your Eldar troop choice is poor. Guardians eventually run away after a few casualties. If you run Guardians, you need an Avatar so that they can walk in their fearlessness bubble.

The HS choices are also poor. Warwalkers have a much higher damage out. I currently run 3 Warwalkers with scatterlasers and 3 Warwalkers with eml's.

War walkers are totally slick. I agree, but the theme is about MC spam, not about war walkers. Are 3 war walkers going to do more than a wraithlord? No question, but my lords can survive the whole game, take out a land raider from shooting and CC, plus I have 5 of the toughest MC's around in my list. If I wanted a WW spam list, I would go double FOC and run 18, but I dont want to change the theme, so I wont.

PredaKhaine wrote:

syranas wrote:
I get that a lot of people think that speed + eldar = the be all and end all; however the wraith wall strategy sacrifices speed for T6-8 units that just don't die. Yes it is possible to run rings around the army if you are very good. However the shooting of the seer and Lords is 24"-48". Power to you if you think you can run rings around them AND stay out of firing range. The wraiths have the best non-character BS in the eldar army and a plethora of heavy weapons. You need to engage them hard and focus fire them till they're down. Flying circles around them doesn't work; they will win an attrition fight.

It's possible to hide from wraithlords - I've seen it done.
Using a fast army and careful deployment can mitigate the shooting they put out.
Poor eldar set up can lead to wraithlords having to advance into a lot of heavy fire - on a good turn, a predator annihilator can drop a wraithlord.

During set up, if you get the deployment on a 3-4 where you fight the length of the table with objectives it's an uphill struggle with wraithwall. You need to be on the march first turn, otherwise you can easily end up with less objectives.

I run wraithwall - it's my preferred style of army list. I'm not saying 'don't take this, it's awful and will lose guaranteed against fast armies, the only true eldar army uses speed' , I'm saying 'it's a good list, have you thought about these points which I find I have to address in my lists'
It's why I tend to take GJB's - it offsets the issues wraithwall has.

I really like the use of the allies in this list.
I'd be tempted to reserve the venom and the wyches to use in a similar vein to GJB's, but with the added bonus it can actually kill something as well.

The Baron sounds great with wraithguard - I've been using karandras to add stealth and having people tell me it's waac, whereas the baron adds so much more and has no grey areas where people do that inward whistling thing....

@Dr.Serling - any chance of a bat rep once you're up and running with the wraithseer? I'd really like to see the how effective this is - and it sounds good. I was planning on allied corsairs, but the DE seem to get so much more bang for buck.

Once my wraithseer is up and running, I think I will challenge my friends SW to a fight. He runs a real in your face SW list with lots of TWC, so it should be a good fight. Might be a week or two, school has really cut into my 40k time. It will be my first list, as I still do not have the $$$ for some more wraithguard.

warpspider89 wrote:I dislike war walkers myself. They require too much psyker support to be useful. They also die very easily. Wraithlords are godly beasts that can destroy vehicles at range & in close combat. They can tie up squads for the entire game and gradually cut through them without dying. WL = amazing.

I don't recommend taking the death jester. It is ten points wasted since you are going to be hiding behind the wraithguard rather than shooting AND you can't take the harlequin's kiss on it/it doesn't have 2 CCW!

I do think wuestenfux is right about your troop choice options. You just don't have enough of them to score objectives in a 2k game. Go with option to. You'll be the anvil for sure and you'll be able to hold the middle with the wraithguard. I still don't think you'll have enough troops to push into the enemy's deployment for linebreaker and their objectives in there tho.

The death jester has saved me in many occassions. A challenge chump, hidden pinning shuricannon, and only six points( you save 4 from not buying a kiss) plus they look fantastic(trenchcoat+machine gun is flat out awesome). Not to say I am against dropping him, but he has his merits. I will see what the guardians can do for me sans fearless bubble, cause I am used to having 1-2 units in that range. Something I will be sure to note in the batrep(and something I am eager to test myself) I can usually make it to the enemy deployment zone with something for linebreaker... as the survivability of the wraiths or clowns can get me there.

Thank you all for the advice. Expect a batrep of this in a couple of weeks!

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, your Eldar troop choice is poor. Guardians eventually run away after a few casualties. If you run Guardians, you need an Avatar so that they can walk in their fearlessness bubble.

The HS choices are also poor. Warwalkers have a much higher damage out. I currently run 3 Warwalkers with scatterlasers and 3 Warwalkers with eml's.

First of all - guardians don't drop and run at the first sight of trouble - you just suck at leadership rolls. But aside from that; guardians work well in 3 ways:
1. Avatar fearless bubble
2. Being ignored
3. Cheap ways to fill out troops choices + get scoring units + field a heavy weapon
In a wraithwall list you are looking at using points 2 and 3. I run guardians are the mass of bodies and heavy weapon is cheaper overall than 5 rangers. Also; in my list; my lords, specters, wraithseer and wraithguard are taking the brunt of the fire away from the guardians - so they don't take casualties and don't run.

As for the wraithlords - yes a war walker squadron can pump out more fire. It dies a hell of a lot faster too overall. On top of that; the wraithseer's greater spiritseer aura (12") is a force multiplier for all wraiths. Taking 3 war walker squadrons is wasting the points you are spending on the seer. The seer works best in concert with a farseer and 2-3 (up to 4 as Mymeara) lords + a 5-10 man WG unit. Oh, and wraiths look so much better than walkers, not to mention BS4 and flamers.

If you want the stock standard cookie cutter eldrad + war walker gun line spam; go for it. That's not what Serling's list is about. The mere fact of taking a wraithseer locks you into needing a WG unit, (1 other HQ ideally a farseer/eldrad/bel-annath) and taking a couple of lords to act as buddies/duo/trio wrecking balls.