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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/29/aide-to-egyptian-president-morsi-claims-holocaust-us-hoax/?intcmp=HPBucket

If Obama is sending these guys 16 jets and 200 tanks, he better be sending the Israelis twice as many.

"Let's elect a conservative hyper religious government (or at least that's the media portray's them). That aught to turn out well..."

I think its more a dig at Iran than the western world in general. It is disconcerting to see that a change of government's not done anything to sort out that particular issue though. At least the Israeli's have the tech to outclass whatever the US tosses Egypts way if it comes to it. =P

Relapse wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/29/aide-to-egyptian-president-morsi-claims-holocaust-us-hoax/?intcmp=HPBucket

If Obama is sending these guys 16 jets and 200 tanks, he better be sending the Israelis twice as many.

The tanks and planes send to Egypt are for the sake of the Israelis. Keeping Egypt reliant on US arms and money means they will do what the US tells them to do, and that means Egypt keeps the quarantine on the Western border of Gaza.

So goes the theory, anyway.

 sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/29/aide-to-egyptian-president-morsi-claims-holocaust-us-hoax/?intcmp=HPBucket

If Obama is sending these guys 16 jets and 200 tanks, he better be sending the Israelis twice as many.

The tanks and planes send to Egypt are for the sake of the Israelis. Keeping Egypt reliant on US arms and money means they will do what the US tells them to do, and that means Egypt keeps the quarantine on the Western border of Gaza.

I might disagree with that based on experience with other fanatics we've had dealings with.

 sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/29/aide-to-egyptian-president-morsi-claims-holocaust-us-hoax/?intcmp=HPBucket

If Obama is sending these guys 16 jets and 200 tanks, he better be sending the Israelis twice as many.

The tanks and planes send to Egypt are for the sake of the Israelis. Keeping Egypt reliant on US arms and money means they will do what the US tells them to do, and that means Egypt keeps the quarantine on the Western border of Gaza.

While in essence I agree with you, I think we should recognize the possibility that religious zealots of the worst (and most irrational) kind could still seize power in Egypt. They might not care.

That said, a few pieces of US hardware will hardly make much of a difference. Israel is one of the most militarily powerful states in the world, definitely the most powerful in their region. They've done more in the past with a lot less than they have now.

 LordofHats wrote:
While in essence I agree with you, I think we should recognize the possibility that religious zealots of the worst (and most irrational) kind could still seize power in Egypt. They might not care.

That said, a few pieces of US hardware will hardly make much of a difference. Israel is one of the most militarily powerful states in the world, definitely the most powerful in their region. They've done more in the past with a lot less than they have now.

Agreed entirely. Egypt could go anyway in the future. But if it does, the 200 tanks and 15 planes given here aren't necessarily going to immediately become assets of the government, as the military has a pretty good record of making sure that their own interests are looked after at all times (and that most certainly means not going to war with Israel).

And I agree that it still doesn't change the basic realities of regional power. Israel is the big dog whether Egypt has some new tanks or not. But I'm not so confident about Israel always having a more effective armed force. Years of grinding tours through occupied territory has a way of lowering discipline and morale - it's one of the big reasons I think a two state solution is needed - to ensure the IDF is kept at a top fighting level in the event that other middle eastern countries get organised enough to actually do something.

Relapse wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/29/aide-to-egyptian-president-morsi-claims-holocaust-us-hoax/?intcmp=HPBucket

If Obama is sending these guys 16 jets and 200 tanks, he better be sending the Israelis twice as many.

Do you have a reliable citation for the tanks? I see plenty of sources for the jets, but the tank one; that's a lot iffier; all the sources I've seen are of the unreliable kind. I see a proposal for them to buy 125 in 2011 but nothing indicating a sale actually happened.

In any event, rather then sending Egypt X and then sending Israel X + Y, I'd prefer we not send them anything at all, either party. I don't believe the United States has any actual national security interest in that region, period; and none of these people are really our allies, not that are worth a damn, anyway.

 sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/29/aide-to-egyptian-president-morsi-claims-holocaust-us-hoax/?intcmp=HPBucket

If Obama is sending these guys 16 jets and 200 tanks, he better be sending the Israelis twice as many.

The tanks and planes send to Egypt are for the sake of the Israelis. Keeping Egypt reliant on US arms and money means they will do what the US tells them to do, and that means Egypt keeps the quarantine on the Western border of Gaza.

yes and when they are used on the Israelis your statement will, curiously, still be accurate.

EDIT: Why are we giving this country aid? We have a $1.3TRILLION deficit, and these guys suck. It just keeps us in the ME.
GET OUT GET OUT GET OUT

Each to their own. I've been reading some holocaust denial theories and some of them actually are logical and use good evidence to back them up - it's not just Neo-Nazis complaining that their hero has been given a bad lot (though it's worse if they actually agree with that gak). I still think it happened though, one can't deny that.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
actually are logical and use good evidence to back them up

I assume that by good evidence you mean ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

By its very nature it can't be logical and good evidence can't back them up. What planet are you living on?

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Each to their own. I've been reading some holocaust denial theories and some of them actually are logical and use good evidence to back them up - it's not just Neo-Nazis complaining that their hero has been given a bad lot (though it's worse if they actually agree with that gak). I still think it happened though, one can't deny that.

Please expound on that. What could be logical about such arguments?

One of the major facts is that it takes several hours to burn a corpse in US prisons whilst, somehow, in some camps, they would have had to burn 300 or more in a single day. Without the Jews interred knowing what they have done.

I'm not saying that it didn't happen. I'm not saying that at all. That's terrible. I want to make that very clear. I have Jewish friends who practise their religion. I'm not Anti-Semitic in any way, nor am I racist - I'm mixed raced!

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Each to their own. I've been reading some holocaust denial theories and some of them actually are logical and use good evidence to back them up - it's not just Neo-Nazis complaining that their hero has been given a bad lot (though it's worse if they actually agree with that gak). I still think it happened though, one can't deny that.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the death-toll of the holocaust was anything less than in the millions. There is a huge amount of extremely well-documented evidence that it was probably 10+ and approaching 12 million, and that's not including battlefield and civilian casualties in the war.


That said, a lot of Arab nations have a very distorted view of the holocaust and Hitler. It's not supported by any actual facts, but it's not really an uncommon view over there either. That doesn't make it all fine and dandy, but it's also not particularly surprising so I try not to get too worked up about it.


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 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
One of the major facts is that it takes several hours to burn a corpse in US prisons whilst, somehow, in some camps, they would have had to burn 300 or more in a single day. Without the Jews interred knowing what they have done.

I'm not saying that it didn't happen. I'm not saying that at all. That's terrible. I want to make that very clear. I have Jewish friends who practise their religion. I'm not Anti-Semitic in any way, nor am I racist - I'm mixed raced!

Many of the people who actually cremated the bodies were Jewish kapos or other camp workers. It wasn't a secret to the people living and working in the camps.

Yet somehow the Jews didn't figure out that they were living in death camps?

The official figure given by the Allies is 6 million.

The Egyptian military is a state within the state, built along the tenets of secular nationalism. They respect the choice of the Egyptian people, for now, but one should not forget that the Muslim Brotherhood has been a thorn on the army's side for decades.

Practical considerations aside (upsetting your main weapons provider is never a good idea), there are political strings attached to every weapons deal. One is left to wonder if the escalation that led to the war of 1956 would have been possible if the need to acquire arms hadn't pushed Nasser's Egypt away from Western influence and into the Soviet sphere via the so called "non-aligned movement". I can imagine what may happen in an hypothetical future in which a weapons-starved Egypt turned its eyes to less "considerate" providers such as Russia and/or China... And it certainly looks worse for Israel than the present does.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Yet somehow the Jews didn't figure out that they were living in death camps?

The official figure given by the Allies is 6 million.

They knew they were living in concentration camps and death camps dude. It was not a secret to the Jews who were there. Who is making the claim that the Jews couldn't "figure out that they were living in death camps?"


The official figures are usually 6 million Jews, and then 4-6 million more Sinti, Roma, political dissidents, communists, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, disabled, elderly, Slavic peoples, Polish prisoners of war, Soviet prisoners of war, among others.

According to a lot of survivor accounts they did not know that. When being sent to the camps they believed that they were being sent to work camps. It wasn't until later in the war when they finally figured it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But again, I'll stress this: I do believe that the holocaust happened to the magnitude given by the Allies. I am in no way a holocaust denier. I'm simply fascinated by a lot of ideas that go against mainstream thought, this being one of the most well-known ones, even if I don't agree with them.

Regarding Israel: do you know what the country itself has done?

Ops, my bad, my post above was in response to Frazzled and others.

But seeing we're talking the Holocaust now, I should say that the fact that they were living in extermination camps was painfully obvious for those interned there. The survivors' accounts should be enough to prove it, but if those still seem "unreliable" to some, there are the accounts by their captors and butchers too.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
According to a lot of survivor accounts they did not know that. When being sent to the camps they believed that they were being sent to work camps. It wasn't until later in the war when they finally figured it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But again, I'll stress this: I do believe that the holocaust happened to the magnitude given by the Allies. I am in no way a holocaust denier. I'm simply fascinated by a lot of ideas that go against mainstream thought, this being one of the most well-known ones, even if I don't agree with them.

Regarding Israel: do you know what the country itself has done?

Before they got there, they didn't know, yes. Very few knew. It was a complete and utter suprise to the Allies when they discovered the camps. Once in the camps the Jews knew, but by then it was to late. They were starved to the point they could offer no resistance. Any resistance that might have been offered was solved with a bullet.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
According to a lot of survivor accounts they did not know that. When being sent to the camps they believed that they were being sent to work camps. It wasn't until later in the war when they finally figured it out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But again, I'll stress this: I do believe that the holocaust happened to the magnitude. I'm fascinated by a lot of ideas that go against mainstream thought, this being one of the most well-known ones, even if I don't agree with them.

I think you're confusing the knowledge of Jewish prisoners before entering the camps with their knowledge after the war. It's probably most Jews when told they were going to works camps, honestly thought that's where they were going. There is however no denying that once they actually got to the camps, and saw the piles of bodies, the clothing they were making from the hair of the dead, and the smell of burning flesh (which is an extremely potent smell and very distinct), that they knew exactly what the camps were for and what was going on in them.

Its also probable Jewish prisoners didn't realize the scale of the Holocaust until after the war. They could only be in one place at once after all. They knew what was happening in their camp, but they might not have known what was happening in others.

Because there is a small difference between being send to a camp, and then living in the camp.

There was also a certain element of refusing to believe, "that is so horrific, even Hitler couldn't do that".

A good book I always recommend to anyone interested in the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0465085725

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
According to a lot of survivor accounts they did not know that. When being sent to the camps they believed that they were being sent to work camps. It wasn't until later in the war when they finally figured it out.

Yes, when being sent to the camps they wouldn't know, because often times the Nazis wouldn't even tell them where they were going. Once they were actually in the camps though, they figured it out. It's also worth pointing out that most of the camps were work camps. There were basically six primary death camps, with maybe a few others. That doesn't mean that people weren't killed at the work camps as well, because they were, but the mass killings took place mostly at the death camps. There were also a lot of people who were killed before even being sent to a camp, especially early on.


Another good book on the subject is Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Yet somehow the Jews didn't figure out that they were living in death camps?

The official figure given by the Allies is 6 million.

Only you are assuming they didn't think they were living in death camps.

Whats even better is that has nothing to do with the veracity of the Holocaust. Evidently the people espousing the what "cremation" argument, have never bothered to look at the incinerators at the camps themselves.




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 Hordini wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Yet somehow the Jews didn't figure out that they were living in death camps?

The official figure given by the Allies is 6 million.

They knew they were living in concentration camps and death camps dude. It was not a secret to the Jews who were there. Who is making the claim that the Jews couldn't "figure out that they were living in death camps?"


The official figures are usually 6 million Jews, and then 4-6 million more Sinti, Roma, political dissidents, communists, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, disabled, elderly, Slavic peoples, Polish prisoners of war, Soviet prisoners of war, among others.

And that doesn't even count the millions of people who died in the war and the occupied territories on the Eastern Front.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
The Egyptian military is a state within the state, built along the tenets of secular nationalism. They respect the choice of the Egyptian people, for now, but one should not forget that the Muslim Brotherhood has been a thorn on the army's side for decades.

Practical considerations aside (upsetting your main weapons provider is never a good idea), there are political strings attached to every weapons deal. One is left to wonder if the escalation that led to the war of 1956 would have been possible if the need to acquire arms hadn't pushed Nasser's Egypt away from Western influence and into the Soviet sphere via the so called "non-aligned movement". I can imagine what may happen in an hypothetical future in which a weapons-starved Egypt turned its eyes to less "considerate" providers such as Russia and/or China... And it certainly looks worse for Israel than the present does.

So what? They deserve nothing.

I've been to Dachau, that wasn't a death camp but they still had ovens that could burn 6 bodies at once. Keep in mind that your average holocaust victim had a lot less mass than our average prisoner. Being skin and bones they could be stacked 6 high and burned together. The four ovens could handle 24 bodies at once.

Feel free to browse: http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/marcus_kesler/2743105835/in/set-72157606610841335/

I will never forget that place. It was a very hot and humid day in August, and it was freezing inside that camp. You could feel the evil lingering there. .

I was never at Dachau but I did visit Auschwitz and that place had a vibe. If anyone genuinely doesn't believe that the Holocaust happened....well polite society keeps me from my recommendations.

And I've talked with survivors when I was younger. Naturally there are less and less of them every year, it's actually a miracle there are any left at this age after what they went through, but over the years I've probably been in the same room over time with over 500 of them. The idea that people can even say there are legitimate arguments about the holocaust not happening bothers me greatly.

I agree with Frazzled, why are we giving these feth heads money?

Because we think we can bribe them into doing what we want. Time to play Russian roulette with foreign relations (but foreign relations are always kind of a game of Russian roulette )

Do we know what we want?