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This came up last night, and seems like one for the books.

First off, relevant facts:
Flyers, when they get a crew stunned result, MUST move 18". They cannot turn. (Page 74, BRB)
Zooming Flyers, when forced to move less than 18", are automatically destroyed. (Page 80, BRB)
Flyers cannot end their move within 1" of an enemy base. (Page 80, BRB)

Here's the situation:
A lucky heavy bolter shot crew stunned an Eldar flyer (I think it was the Nightwing).
Almost exactly 18" in front of it was a disembarked CCS standing around.
The flyer couldn't move on it's turn without having models under it's base.

Now, you're probably thinking "great, it's destroyed, why is this hard". The thing is, the rule states that zooming flyers forced to move LESS than 18" are destroyed. You're not forced to move less than 18". You're forced to move precisely 18" The problem* here though is that 18" doesn't put you in valid movement territory, so you can't move there. But you must move also, because you're a flyer, and you don't have hover mode (and probably couldn't go into it at that point anyway).

So what do you do? We ruled it destroyed, because that seemed like the solution that broke the LEAST rules, but trying to break the fewest rules of a game to play the game seems like trying to shoot your foot off to spare your leg. That is: still not great.




*this problem is somewhat dwarfed by the problem of not being able to have a flyer, you know, FLY over units. Make it wobbly model syndrome or something, geez. But that's a conversation for a different thread.

You only have permission to move 18". You would have to stop short of 18" because there were models at 18".

What happens to Flyers that move less than 18"?

You are allowed to turn. This is the problem with vector lock: it allows rotation.

zephoid wrote:
You are allowed to turn. This is the problem with vector lock: it allows rotation.

Page 74 BRB under Crew Stunned wrote:The vehicle cannot move unless it is a Zooming Flyer.If the vehicle is a Zooming Flyer (see page 80) it instead can only move 18"and cannot turn.

Since he mentioned stun rather than locked velocity...

 daedalus wrote:
Now, you're probably thinking "great, it's destroyed, why is this hard". The thing is, the rule states that zooming flyers forced to move LESS than 18" are destroyed. You're not forced to move less than 18". You're forced to move precisely 18".

Unless there are some models in the way, meaning you must stop before you can move the full 18". Which means the flyer is destroyed.

 daedalus wrote:
The problem* here though is that 18" doesn't put you in valid movement territory, so you can't move there. But you must move also, because you're a flyer, and you don't have hover mode (and probably couldn't go into it at that point anyway).

This is no problem. Can't trumps must (except in the rare cases where it is written out that must actually overrides can't).
This exactly same thing as with The Relic really. On page 131, it even says that so don't put it on a Flyer, as the Flyer will automatically crash next time it Zooms.

Luide wrote:
This is no problem. Can't trumps must (except in the rare cases where it is written out that must actually overrides can't).
This exactly same thing as with The Relic really. On page 131, it even says that so don't put it on a Flyer, as the Flyer will automatically crash next time it Zooms.

I agree with your overall outcome. Good find on the relic bit, btw. Is "can't trumps must" actually stated in the rules anywhere? My problem is that I feel like we're just using the "can't trumps must" methodology as a stopgap since there's no better way to resolve these issues.

It's more of a function of how the rules have to work.

In essence there are no clear rules on how to deal with that situation and so you have to make up rules in order to deal with these glaring holes in the rules set. I know of game where they ruled that the flyer flew far enough past the unit to make it legal. I think it was 20". It doesn't make sense that just because a guy with a lasgun is standing in the flight path of a flyer that the pilot does a nose dive into the ground.

Aycee

Actually, I think that the relic bit doesn't work, now that I've considered it. The relic says "the vehicle cannot move more than 6" per phase". This triggers the wrecking result, because you've been given the restriction of only being able to move less than your minimum amount.

The situation we're dealing with here is that you're ONLY given the ability to move your minimum amount. It's just that this area isn't a valid move. You're still not ever given permission to move LESS than 18".

But, daedalus, "can't trumps must". Okay, with "can't trumps must" you are saying that because you can't occupy the 18" mark, you CAN ignore the movement restriction. If you're ignoring the movement restriction, why can you only do it to break another rule? Why couldn't you just move 21" (which is hypothetical clear terrain) and be fine again?

Now, the lightning round:

If a flyer crashes in this manner, where do they bury the survivors?

...Seriously though. Assuming we accept that it must attempt to move less than 18", where does it crash? Does it crash where it was initially, because it can't move in the manner demanded (assuming the ability to move less even exists even though nothing gave it permission to do so), or does it crash 18" forward, because that's where it SHOULD have been, though it was invalid, or does it reduce movement by minimum needed, and then crash there, even though that's not really supported by rules either?

Following "can't beats must," the crash would occur wherever the "cannot go any further" is invoked, rather than where the flier "must" go.

It is an interesting fact to learn, after this venture into flier territory, that the rulebook says a zooming flier must move 12-24" when going flat out, even though it is only allowed to move 18-24." Minor oversight, I suppose.

 daedalus wrote:
Actually, I think that the relic bit doesn't work, now that I've considered it.

Oh, it definitely does. Which means you've interpreted some other rule wrong.

 daedalus wrote:
The relic says "the vehicle cannot move more than 6" per phase". This triggers the wrecking result, because you've been given the restriction of only being able to move less than your minimum amount.

Actually, the destruction triggers because your flier stops after that 6" and theof the special rule that states if Zooming flyer moves less than 18", it is destroyed.

 daedalus wrote:
The situation we're dealing with here is that you're ONLY given the ability to move your minimum amount. It's just that this area isn't a valid move. You're still not ever given permission to move LESS than 18".
But, daedalus, "can't trumps must". Okay, with "can't trumps must" you are saying that because you can't occupy the 18" mark, you CAN ignore the movement restriction.

Yes. Because of this, you're allowed to move less than 18" even though Zooming specifies min movement of 18". Destruction comes from completely separate rule.

 daedalus wrote:
If you're ignoring the movement restriction, why can you only do it to break another rule? Why couldn't you just move 21" (which is hypothetical clear terrain) and be fine again?

Because rule states that you cannot move more than 18". And can't still trumps may/must. And you're not 'ignoring' movement restriction, there just is stronger restriction in play.

 daedalus wrote:
Now, the lightning round:
If a flyer crashes in this manner, where do they bury the survivors?

Flyer moves as far as it can. Then it suffers Crash and Burn because it was unable to move 18". Movement as per rules isn't "I pick up the vehicle from here and place it there, 18 inches away", (even though this is the way you probably play it in practice) it is continuous process.

Unless i misread something for me it is clear:

1 You have to move exacly 18" due to crew stunned.
2 You can't move less than 18" due to zooming
3 There are enemys exacly at 18" from you so you can't move 18".

Am i correct? If so you crash due to condition 2. I dont get the fuzz- you need to move but you can't. Asking after someone it topic: what happens to a flyer that can't move 18?

Luide wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
If you're ignoring the movement restriction, why can you only do it to break another rule? Why couldn't you just move 21" (which is hypothetical clear terrain) and be fine again?

Because rule states that you cannot move more than 18". And can't still trumps may/must. And you're not 'ignoring' movement restriction, there just is stronger restriction in play.

But which rule, specifically, tells me that I cannot move more than 18"? I saw a rule saying I had to move 18". It never left stipulations for moving any less, and you're saying we have to ignore it because it forces you to do something illegal.

I never saw a rule that said I could only move up to 18". I'm not trying to be obtuse here. I genuinely can't seem to find it.

If you can show that, then I think I have to agree with everything else you've said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vitalis09 wrote:
Unless i misread something for me it is clear:

1 You have to move exacly 18" due to crew stunned.
2 You can't move less than 18" due to zooming
3 There are enemys exacly at 18" from you so you can't move 18".

Am i correct? If so you crash due to condition 2. I dont get the fuzz- you need to move but you can't. Asking after someone it topic: what happens to a flyer that can't move 18?

Well, that's the problem. It's not that flyers that can't move 18" crash, it's that flyers that involuntarily move less than 18" crash.

The argument being made here is that you have to attempt to move 18" (like a tank shock) until your movement fails. I have not yet found anything indicating that this is how movement is performed, though I've not found anything refuting it. The only thing I can actually find that explicitly says to move until you can't and evaluate the situation then is tank shocking.

I see your point but the answer is still clear for me:

BRB states:
1. Flyer can't end movement below 1" from enemy.
2. besides saying that flyers can't volutarily move below 18, also states that flyer that is MADE to shorten its movement is wrecked.

Coclusion is simple: ok, you want to move 18 but your flyer is MADE to move shorter so it crashes.

For me its the same as ex ramming: you got such a situation

ramming tank...... target of ramming
[][]..............................[][]
[][]...........................O[][]
[][]..............................[][]

so we got 2 squares symbolising rammer and rammed and one model standing in a way of a rammer. So you declare a ramming but for any reason you can't move around this lonely model. So you want to declare a ramming but you are MADE to shorten your move. Does ramming occurs? Not even if you declared it.

Same thing for me here: ok, you want to move this 18 but rule about 1" inch space prevents you from it. 18 movement never occurs so flyer crashes.

You must move 18". If you CANNOT move 18" and can only move a shorter distance, you crash

Very simple.

Agree with Nos, had someone do it to me in a tourny and had to agree. You should be running extra armour just for this possibilty.

Here is the conundrum...The flyer rules state that if stunned you have to fly 18" straight. It doesn't tell you what you need to do if there is another unit at the 18". Since this is a permissive rules set and RAW it does not tell you what to do when this occurs. You neither have permission to move more or move less then 18".

In regards to RAI, there is not enough information to go by to find the intent here since the only information that it is even locked in a direction and distance is in the back of the BRB. You could play it that the flyer spontaneously combusts and flies in loop da loops and explodes with the force of 10 megatons and it would be just as valid as flying over the unit more then 18" or flying less then 18" and crashing.

I still find it hard to fathom how a guy with a lasgun on the ground causes a flyer to nose dive into the ground but I also find it hard to believe that a guy with a lasgun can't stand underneath a zooming flyer.

Aycee

Aycee71 wrote:
since the only information that it is even locked in a direction and distance is in the back of the BRB.

Page 74 BRB under Crew Stunned wrote:The vehicle cannot move unless it is a Zooming Flyer.If the vehicle is a Zooming Flyer (see page 80) it instead can only move 18"and cannot turn.

Page 74 is in the back of the BRB?

Just out of curiosity (because I'm not seeing this in the rulebook or FAQ), can a Flyer that is stunned switch to Hover mode? I know Locked Velocity does not allow a mode switch.

Nothing preventing it so i guess it can.
Then it just moves 17" and everybodys happy.

vitalis09 wrote:
Nothing preventing it so i guess it can.
Then it just moves 17" and everybodys happy.

Not quite, as it would be a fast skimmer, it would just sit there.

Aycee71 wrote:
Here is the conundrum...The flyer rules state that if stunned you have to fly 18" straight. It doesn't tell you what you need to do if there is another unit at the 18". Since this is a permissive rules set and RAW it does not tell you what to do when this occurs.

I believe you are overthinking this. Damage result says you must move straight 18", no turning. Zooming Flyer rules state you cannot move less than 18" or the zooming flyer is wrecked. Flyer restrictions clearly state you cannot end your movement within 1" of an enemy model. The Damage Table does not give you permission to ignore movement restrictions, it just specifically states the movement abilities that you CAN'T perform (ie, 90 degree turn, increase velocity to cruising speed), so you will end up with a wrecked flyer in the original OPs scenario.

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity (because I'm not seeing this in the rulebook or FAQ), can a Flyer that is stunned switch to Hover mode? I know Locked Velocity does not allow a mode switch.

The real question would be if changing to hover mode changes a "vector locked" result or are you still bound by its limitations regardless of switching to a skimmer because you were not a skimmer when it was suffered.

Azrell wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity (because I'm not seeing this in the rulebook or FAQ), can a Flyer that is stunned switch to Hover mode? I know Locked Velocity does not allow a mode switch.

The real question would be if changing to hover mode changes a "vector locked" result or are you still bound by its limitations regardless of switching to a skimmer because you were not a skimmer when it was suffered.

Q: If a Flyer (Hover) suffers Locked Velocity from an Immobilised
result whilst Zooming, can it opt to switch to Hover mode? (p81)
A: No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm assuming you were talking about Locked Velocity. I don't "Vector locked" anywhere.

 Happyjew wrote:

Azrell wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Just out of curiosity (because I'm not seeing this in the rulebook or FAQ), can a Flyer that is stunned switch to Hover mode? I know Locked Velocity does not allow a mode switch.

The real question would be if changing to hover mode changes a "vector locked" result or are you still bound by its limitations regardless of switching to a skimmer because you were not a skimmer when it was suffered.

Q: If a Flyer (Hover) suffers Locked Velocity from an Immobilised
result whilst Zooming, can it opt to switch to Hover mode? (p81)
A: No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm assuming you were talking about Locked Velocity. I don't "Vector locked" anywhere.

Thing is, you're never actually "Locked Velocity" from the vehicle stunned result. It's an effect similar to Locked Velocity, but they never actually use those terms.