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so, i played against my friends space wolves and thought 'shooty terminators with all the lovely rules = good?'

well, lets just say arjac and logan plus 4 other th/ss terminators totally outperformed me in attacks and durability. despite having these fancy rules for shooting, it doesn't seem to matter versus extreme brute force lol

so i came up with this. looking to improve it to 2000pts

HQ

Belial w/ th/ss = 190

TROOPS

deathwing squad 10x w/ 8x th/ss, 2x PC = 510

deathwing squad 10x w/ 8x th/ss, 2x PC = 510

total = 1210

i've thought about adding a command squad for belial to give that +1 attack bubble and also get a dark talon to drop stasis bombs on annoyingly hard units. but the command squad is too expensive and i have 2 troop choices which is rubbish lol

i understand for a first game i shouldn't get too disheartened but it literally was a complete whitewash and the lack of durability left me feeling like the deathwing are just as fragile as anything that arjac, logan and whoever they are with want to annihilate. i left 2 heavy weapons in the squads so that they still get the chance to split fire or unload into people charging me. i'd prefer assault cannons but PC's are cheaper and save me points.

discuss.....

Don't rush on him, wait him and shoot !!!

Don't take 2 squads of 10, instead take 4 squads of 5.

You could try running a 5 man Squad of Deathwing knights with Belial, With them all in B2B contact they are t5 with 3+ INV saves. Then the turn that you get into combat with Arjac and Logan you use the deathwing knights Smite ability and rock them in the face and leave Belial to finish up any remaining models.

I would also tone down the number of TH/SS termis, yes they are great with their 3+ INV, but the lack of shooting leaves you open to his shooting. Just get a few to put out front so the rest of your squad is safe from AP1 and AP2 weapons. I have run the plasma cannons a few times so far and I am starting to remember how much I loved assault cannons, I have just had more luck with them taking down more guys.

What kind of list does the SW player run? We could give some better sugestions based on what you will be up agianst.

I would look into a squad of 6 black knights with 2 grenade launcher upgrades to weaken the unit you're trying to shred with the Termies.

tetsuo666 wrote:Don't rush on him, wait him and shoot !!!

Don't take 2 squads of 10, instead take 4 squads of 5.

lol thats what i did the first time and he just shrugged everything i had off and charged me. still lost lol. MSU seems like a good idea i'll have to try it out..

Scorpiodragon wrote:You could try running a 5 man Squad of Deathwing knights with Belial, With them all in B2B contact they are t5 with 3+ INV saves. Then the turn that you get into combat with Arjac and Logan you use the deathwing knights Smite ability and rock them in the face and leave Belial to finish up any remaining models.

I would also tone down the number of TH/SS termis, yes they are great with their 3+ INV, but the lack of shooting leaves you open to his shooting. Just get a few to put out front so the rest of your squad is safe from AP1 and AP2 weapons. I have run the plasma cannons a few times so far and I am starting to remember how much I loved assault cannons, I have just had more luck with them taking down more guys.

What kind of list does the SW player run? We could give some better sugestions based on what you will be up agianst.

see i have proxied deathwing knights and aren't too impressed by them tbh. they are good for one turn then they are naff. + 1 toughness is pretty irrelevant against plasma and thunderhammers lol

totally agree on the assault cannons though, i've run 10 deathwing with thunder hammers and 2 asscans and they do pretty well. i haven't tried the other heavy weapons yet though. i think if i can up against other horde armies i wouldn't be too bothered with thunderhammer termies as vengeful strike added to all that shooting would clear out most hordes with ease.

he usually runs a variation of;

2x 9 - 10 grey hunters with 2x melta, p fist, combi weapon (sometimes a rune priest)

2x 9 - 10 grey hunters with 2x plasma, p fist, combi weapon (sometimes a rune priest)

the usual 3x long fangs, 2x 4 - 5 ML's, 1x 2-3x ML's 2x LC's

then arjac, logan and however many termies he can have and sometimes a land raider crusader lol

basically horde marines LMAO

phoenix darkus wrote:I would look into a squad of 6 black knights with 2 grenade launcher upgrades to weaken the unit you're trying to shred with the Termies.

again the black knight are just what the ravenwing used to be minus a few rules and with added plasma flavour. i do like the grenade launcher though, but i think the dark talon's bomb would help more

Just caught myself wondering what you're gonna do without Leman Russ Executioner when I remembered for just over 300 points you can lay down two large plasma blasts.

Then Ezekiel mind worm = S4 AP2 = get a wound through on Logan or Arjac and they stop being a threat. (To your terminators, sort of. A bit) And Ezekiel gives everything in 6" +1 WS.

Bring your deathwing down turn one and try to twin link his transports open to get the plasma storm batteries down on them.

Although if you get turn two, long fangs will do terrible things to your plans

 Davylove21 wrote:
Just caught myself wondering what you're gonna do without Leman Russ Executioner when I remembered for just over 300 points you can lay down two large plasma blasts.

Then Ezekiel mind worm = S4 AP2 = get a wound through on Logan or Arjac and they stop being a threat. (To your terminators, sort of. A bit) And Ezekiel gives everything in 6" +1 WS.

Bring your deathwing down turn one and try to twin link his transports open to get the plasma storm batteries down on them.

Although if you get turn two, long fangs will do terrible things to your plans

problem with ezekial is that he chucks a spanner in the works for my hobby-un/convertun plans lol. might think about getting some dreads in.....

gutting because space wolves just outgun/outfight/outshoot/outeverything you. whatever is in your book, the wolves do it better lol.

except deepstriking, i can do that better lol

I've got to tell you...I played my Dark Angels against that same squad last night. Sammael and a squad of 4 Black nights just wiped them out. All but 1 were gone, just after my shooting. Twin-linked plasma is your friend.

I don't think Deathwing can handle them all that well by themselves. They need some support. Black knights or tactical squads with plasma cannons worked well for me last night....(except for that round where my cannon got hot, failed his save, and then scattered the template back into my own troops....that didn't work out so well).

@ bubbinski - i think you may be right, the book does seem to nod towards using both ravenwing and deathwing to complement each other. i'd mainly use black knight for thier teleport homers if i'm honest. i think at 2000+ pts games i'd consider them. talentless helldrake burning just denies them completely lol - probably why i'm resorting to deathwing

here's my revised list- bearing in mind i've got a plethora of different weapons, just to see which works out best in the next game. LC's are there for... well.. looking cool lmao. if they look cool enough i think losing would be less grating!

Belial w/ TH/SS = 190

Libby w/ mastery lvl 2, TDA, displacer field, combi weapon (not sure which yet) = 161


Deathwing squad w/ 3x TH/SS, SB/CF, HF = 250 (thinking of taking out a thunderhammer in favour of another storm bolter and putting belial in here to maximise the HF's wounds)

Deathwing squad w/ 3x TH/SS, CML (on the TH/SS guy), SB/CF, LC = 265

Deathwing squad w/ 3x TH/SS, SB/CF, AssCan = 260

Deathwing squad w/ 3x TH/SS, LC, PC = 250


Ven Dread w/ drop pod (locator beacon), MM, PF, HF = 175

Ven Dread w/ drop pod (locator beacon), MM, PF, HF = 175

Ven Dread w/ drop pod (locator beacon), 2x TLAC = 190

total 1926

hopefully with splitting down to 5 man squads it'll force my opponent to have to focus on one unit or try shoot all of them with not as much focussed firepower. the dreads can pop vehicles that i don't like, while holding thier own and being an immediate threat, plus the locator beacons give me other options for places to deepstrike without scattering. i have a few points left over to play with and could have more if i take out the mortis dread and replace it with the nephilim which has more dakka at a similar BS (if it's at anything minus flyers)

i could cut the TH/SS down to 2 per squad for more shooting but i fear my poor deployment will mean that i can't put them in hte right place to soak up any ap1 - 2 shots

I have to respect a man that puts his hobbyun before his battlun. Make your own plasma storms for maximum honour.

Slightly unrelated, but I was getting peeved with all the feel no pain rolls being made but realise now that ID wounds = no more FNP.

I'm gonna pop in with a mini-list I would run to give the deathwing the support I think they need.

Ven Dreadnought MM/PF Drop Pod + Locator Beacon
Landspeeder MM/MM
Landspeeder MM/MM
Landspeeder MM/MM
Vindicator
Vindicator
Vindicator

That leaves you with just under 1250 points to spend on Terminators. My thinking with it is Drop Pod Assault down in front of most important transport, pop it and eradicate whatever was inside with vindicators. Turn two, flawless DS your termies and Landspeeders (18" double pen dice radius around drop pod will be hard to avoid). Pop transports, vindicate, shoot.

Playing like this though, I would go for those twin-linking shooty Termies and think of them more as the guys who come in after the carnage and mop up. You're only exchanging 3++ for 5++ and two twin linked shots by not taking TH/SS, you'll still be S8 AP2!

Yah drop your termites on a flank away from the space wolf termies and twin link them to death. While he scrambles to play defense shoot him to death and get them support.