Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK here's what happened. I'm playing Daemons, he's playing Venom-spam Dark Eldar. I had a unit of eight Screamers. He charged them with a unit of Witches (and his HQ) and three small units of Wracks. The Witches were on one side, the Wracks came in from the other. After the smoke had cleared, I had four Screamers left, three of them on one wound and I'd killed about half the Witches.

My turn. The Screamers were probably going to die this turn. He hadn't killed all the Screamers so shooting wouldn't do much good, though I did manage to get a Boon of Mutation off and turn his HQ into a Chaos Spawn, since that can be fired into close combat. So I decided to charge in my other unit of Screamers into the combat (there would have been a lot of Dakka coming their way next turn otherwise). These Screamers came in from the side the Witches were on. With a decent charge roll I could probably have done a multi-assault and hit both the Witches and one or two of the small Wrack units - Witches were ~3" away, the nearest Wrack unit was 6-7" away. The 3-4 Hammer of Wrath attacks I'd miss out on for not getting the Screamers into base-to-base with all the Witches wouldn't make up for loosing the 8 extra charge attacks and reaching the Wracks was far from guaranteed anyway, so I declared a charge into just the Witches. Made it no problems, got 4 Hammer of Wraths attacks (killing a Witch) and every Screamer from the new unit was engaged with the Witches. So we had one big multiple combat with 6-7 surviving Witches, 3 units of 3 Wracks, 1 unit of 4 Screamers and 1 unit of 8 Screamers. There's also Chaos Spawn standing 1" away from the Witches and out of combat not doing much.

Initiative 6 and the Witches do five unsaved wounds and kill off the remaining models from the original Screamer unit. Initiative 5 and the Wracks should have piled in 3" towards the second unit of Screamers. This wouldn't have got them into base-to-base, but the final 3" pile-in at the end of combat would have, particularly since my Screamers managed to kill all but ~3 Witches with their attacks. But he refuses to do this. Despite it clearing being a single multiple combat, because I didn't do a disorganized charge into the Wracks and the Witches, in his opinion, none of the Wracks were now in the combat and could consolidate out! This would make a big difference because on his turn he could then charge them into my Pink Horror units. Big argument and to get things moving the GW staff insist we roll-off for the decision and I loose out.

As predicted, my opponent manages to kill off the rest of my troops with assaults from the Wracks and shooting from the surviving Venoms and he obviously thinks he's now won the game. However the Screamers finally kill of the Witches and I'm able to kill some more of his stuff with Fateweaver (including making a second Spawn) and Flamers. Towards the end of turn four he's got some troops on my objective, and line breaker. I've got first blood, slay the warlord and line breaker, so 4-3 to him. He says he wants to call it there since the game has gone too long, and implies he's won anyway. However it's fairly obvious that at the start of turn 5 I would have a very good chance of killing all his troops with shooting and combat, plus getting a denial unit back on my objective just in case some of them survived . We had time to play on, but he walked off in a sulk anyway.

Not the most enjoyable game and he didn't play very nicely - complaining I moved too far, but only after I measured and had moved all the models and there was no way to tell exactly where they had come from, never as I'm actually making the move - not true, I'm always fairly exact in my measurement and I would say he was quite imprecise in his instead (but couldn't be bothered to call him on it until he started making a fuss). He was also one of those annoying players who take away the successful rather than the unsuccessful rolls, often before I had time to see them. Needless to say he will be the my last choice of opponents in the future. Quite surprising because in the last-but-one Game of Thrones, he claimed to have got 3+ best game votes in the comp scoring. He could have being having a bad day, but yesterday he came across as being a bit of a t*!@sser.

Anyway, can someone give me page references on how the multiple combat should have gone. In my mind, there's no way he should have been able to consolidate out of that combat, but I need proof. And if I'm wrong, I need to apologise.

Thanks.

It was all one multiple combat, meaning they have to try to pile in to make base contact. Only if they couldnt reach base would they be free to move off.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It was all one multiple combat, meaning they have to try to pile in to make base contact. Only if they couldnt reach base would they be free to move off.

Yes that's pretty much what I told him, he just couldn't accept it. He said: where exactly does it say that in the rules. He was convinced that a it wasn't a single multiple combat, but two separate combats. Which make no sense to in my mind because we were working down the initiative steps for the whole combat and at the start his Witches were clearly engaged with both Screamer units and the three Wrack units engaged with one of the Screamer units - single multiple combats, not multiple single combats. However unless I find something quotable in the rules, he's the sort of person that's too stubborn to accept it. Nearest I've been able to find so far is in the rules FAQ where two units are fighting a single character that's in a challenge. The FAQ say quite clearly that the other units can't consolidate. So if my Screamers were a single character I'd be OK, but because they're not that somehow magically gives him permission to ignore rules that he disagrees with.

I've seen him argue daft stuff before - deny the witch roll against Tzeentch daemon powers, a weapon destroyed on his Soul Grinder mawcannon just taking away one of the firing modes not all. Even that my old metal screamers that came on shorter bases than the new Screamers were now somehow illegal, otherwise I'd have too much of an advantage avoiding the downward flying arc of flyers!

If you are having this much difficulty playing a game against that opponent it is sometimes best to simply not start.

Either way, it doesn't matter how many units are involved in the combat, it was just one big melee. He should have piled in.

clively wrote:
If you are having this much difficulty playing a game against that opponent it is sometimes best to simply not start.

Agreed. However, some people have to insist on complicating a scenario like this in order to prove a point or confuse the opponent into doing something wrong.

It is written in the rules where it defines what a multiple combat is.

Once again nos has it, it uses a similar situation in the multiple combat rules aswell

Thanks for the support everyone. There's also a couple of other things that concerned me about this particular combat.

Firstly, was I right in not declaring a disorganized charge? I explained my reasoning in the original post, but that was based on me wanting to optimise my attacks, not on what the rules say. I was charging into a big multiple combat against the four enemy units that were in combat with my one unit. I was easily able to place my models so that they just engaged the one enemy unit so as to get the bonus attacks. However even though I was only physically engaged with the one unit I still ended up in a combat with four units. Can't find a rule either way on this.

Other thing was that my opponent was hitting with his Wracks at I5. I don't have the Dark Eldar codex, but I do have the Dark Eldar Quartermaster template and that shows the Wracks having I4. So was I cheated here as well? This would have made a difference for the initial assault on the first unit of Screamers because I would have got an extra 6 return attacks in before the Screamers killed by the Wracks died.

Thanks.

Good ol' WAAC scumbag Steves.

There's a guy at the FLGS that does the whole "Let's just call it now since I'm winning," crap all the time. Big surprise, he can't find games any more.

Yeah Wracks are I4 and I cant think of anything off-hand that could have bolstered it. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, most of the DE codex is I5, maybe he didnt look too close and assumed... weak excuse but it happens (played Fire Dragons as having a 3+ sv for ages til someone pulled me up cos they did have when I first played them so I know it happens). From your description tho sounds like he was trying it on...

Do they have furious charge?
Maybe he was remembering the 5th edition rule that added 1 init with furious charge.

Wracks start with a pain token so if they'd picked up a second somewhere prior to the assault then yep they'd have furious charge.

I'm a little confused. But maybe I'm not understanding the situation right.

Wyches were in btb with original unit.
Wracks were in btb with original unit.
2nd screamer unit charges wyches, not touching any wracks.
Original unit dies, wracks are touching nothing.

If this is right then the wracks were never in multiple unit assault. They were simply in assault with the original screamers. So once the screamers were dead then they should be free to do their own thing. The wyches would be considered in a multiple unit assault because they're touching 2 enemy units. Just like the charging screamers could not do damage to the wracks because at no point were they in assault with them...

Also, how did you manage to have 4 screamers and 3 with 1 wound each in a unit with no LOS capability?

IamCaboose wrote:
I'm a little confused. But maybe I'm not understanding the situation right.

Wyches were in btb with original unit.
Wracks were in btb with original unit.
2nd screamer unit charges wyches, not touching any wracks.
Original unit dies, wracks are touching nothing.

If this is right then the wracks were never in multiple unit assault. They were simply in assault with the original screamers. So once the screamers were dead then they should be free to do their own thing. The wyches would be considered in a multiple unit assault because they're touching 2 enemy units. Just like the charging screamers could not do damage to the wracks because at no point were they in assault with them...

Also, how did you manage to have 4 screamers and 3 with 1 wound each in a unit with no LOS capability?

You can often be in a situation where you can't hit an opponent, doesn't mean you're not in suddenly in combat, only if at the end of the turn after all the pile-ins, your still not engaged can you consolidate out of the combat. For example one unit engaged with two enemy units. That unit looses some models and because the surviving models are all engaged with the other unit, it can't pile-in and engage with the other unit. It needs to wait to the next turn after the unengaged unit has piled-in before it can choose to make attacks against it again. Similar thing here.

3 models with 1 wound is easy. The unit of Screamer was surrounded by 4 different units, so wounds are coming from 4 different directions when it comes to allocate them. Model closest to 1 unit of Wracks takes wounds from that unit. But another model might be closer to another enemy unit in the same combat, so gets allocated wounds from that unit instead. You only have to keep alocating wounds to a given model for attacks from the same unit at the same initiative level.

ChaosDog wrote:

You can often be in a situation where you can't hit an opponent, doesn't mean you're not in suddenly in combat, only if at the end of the turn after all the pile-ins, your still not engaged can you consolidate out of the combat. For example one unit engaged with two enemy units. That unit looses some models and because the surviving models are all engaged with the other unit, it can't pile-in and engage with the other unit. It needs to wait to the next turn after the unengaged unit has piled-in before it can choose to make attacks against it again. Similar thing here.

No. If the wracks were only ever touching the orignal unit then they were never engaged with the charging screamers. The wyches would be subject to multiple assaults. Once the original unit dies the wyches are stuck but the wracks are free to go. Simply because the wyches were also touching the orginal unit doesn't mean the wracks are engaged with the charging unit. If you had sent even a single charging screamer to touch the wracks, then you'd be correct.

3 models with 1 wound is easy. The unit of Screamer was surrounded by 4 different units, so wounds are coming from 4 different directions when it comes to allocate them. Model closest to 1 unit of Wracks takes wounds from that unit. But another model might be closer to another enemy unit in the same combat, so gets allocated wounds from that unit instead. You only have to keep alocating wounds to a given model for attacks from the same unit at the same initiative level.

Ok I understand the wound part, I was picturing something else in my head for some reason. Guess it's hard for me imagine 4 units only managing 3 wounds against screamers without Fateweaver around

Actually yes it does; the combat is now one multiple combat, and the rules are very explicit and clear on this matter - if you are in a multiple combat you attempt to pile in to ANY enemy unit in the multiple combat. Totally unambiguous.

No, you cannot be locked in combat with something you were never engaged with.

IamCaboose wrote:
No, you cannot be locked in combat with something you were never engaged with.

Except that you can. Pg 28 tells us that "a model that is in base contact, or engaged, with just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit." and further tells us that "After determining assault results, all units involved in that multiple combat must make Pile In moves towards enemies that fought in that combat."

Even if you have a unit that is only fighting one of the enemy units, the entire combat is counted as one multiple combat, and as such it must Pile In to any unit that fought during that multiple combat.

IamCaboose wrote:
No, you cannot be locked in combat with something you were never engaged with.

Incorrect. Please actually read the multiple assault rules, specifically the requirements on piling in. IT is entirely unambiguous.

Thanks, I've read the rules. Everything in the multiple combats section refers to one unit engaged with 2 or more units.

The wracks were never engaged by the charging screamers. Even the example given is one unit charging 2 and actually being engaged(pg.23 Who Can Fight) with both.

IamCaboose wrote:Everything in the multiple combats section refers to one unit engaged with 2 or more units.

Avatar 720 wrote:Pg 28 tells us that "a model that is in base contact, or engaged, with just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit." and further tells us that "After determining assault results, all units involved in that multiple combat must make Pile In moves towards enemies that fought in that combat."

Even if you have a unit that is only fighting one of the enemy units, the entire combat is counted as one multiple combat, and as such it must Pile In to any unit that fought during that multiple combat.

That quote is taken from the multiple combat section, and only mentions a model being in base contact or engaged with a single enemy unit.

IamCaboose wrote:
If this is right then the wracks were never in multiple unit assault. They were simply in assault with the original screamers. So once the screamers were dead then they should be free to do their own thing. The wyches would be considered in a multiple unit assault because they're touching 2 enemy units.

Whoa, there. I think this is the root of the misunderstanding. You can't have a one-on-one combat and a multiple combat both in the same combat. That's a single, multiple assault. It's not two (or more) combats. It all has to be done in a single initiative ladder, with a single combat result. "All units involved" must then pile-in (if they haven't fled or been destroyed).

I'll concede since it seems I'm the only one reading that way.

I just find it strange that if unit C is in contact with unit A and B and unit D charges only touching unit B. Then unit C is wiped out and now A, who was never engaged (2" or btb" with D is stuck. See crude diagram below if this was a terrible explanation lol.

Starts as:
AAABBB
CCC

Becomes:
AAABBB<---D
CCC

Ends as:
AAABBBD

Again, I concede the point.

Well, why wouldn't they pile-in to help their buddies who are still fighting right next to them? I don't even see what's so strange about that.

In that scenario (assuming A and B are the same side, and C and D are opponents) A cannot reach base to base with a pile in and they are free to consolidate out of combat.

But A has to try to pile into D.

Because at no point were they engaged(2" or btb") with a model from unit D. Just like unit D couldn't allocate any attacks to unit A.

IamCaboose wrote:
Because at no point were they engaged(2" or btb") with a model from unit D.

You keep saying that. It has no relevance to your question; pile-in distance can be longer, even much longer, than engagement distance (it can even be shorter in some cases). It's possible to pile-in to units you couldn't attack (as long as you were both in the same combat), and it's possible to fail to pile-in to units you did attack!

IamCaboose wrote:
Just like unit D couldn't allocate any attacks to unit A.

Doesn't matter. They're in the same combat. They must pile-in if possible (if it's not possible, units that can't reach contact fall out of combat and instead consolidate, as rigeld2 points out).

IamCaboose wrote:
Because at no point were they engaged(2" or btb") with a model from unit D. Just like unit D couldn't allocate any attacks to unit A.

Except they were in a multiple combat, and therefore have to try to pile in to any unit in the multiple combat, as the multiple combat rules require


As soon as you have 3 + units involved in a single combat, it is a "multiple combat", with all that entails