Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

[quote=Your chosen were to inexpensive beforehand anyways.

I'll use black orcs as an example, seeing as they are both special elite infantry units, seeing as orcs are generally one of the more balanced books.

Black orcs 12

Chosen: 18

For six more points, you gain:

+2WS, +3I, +1A, Free roll on the EOTG table. +1 armor save (so 4+), ability to take mark.

You don't gain: Choppa rule (+1S at beginning of combat), Immune to psych, ability to use three weapon types (Sword + shield, AHW, Great weapon)

I'm not seeing how that made chosen inexpensive. Black Orcs (at 13 points) have the choice between using 3 different weapon options with the choppa rule. Compare that to the barebone Chosen and you're paying an extra 5 points for stats that are no better than your core Chaos Warrior (barring +1 WS).
You cant simply compare one armies unit to another's while disregarding other options.

What made the Chosen seem undercosted, was the two Warshrines that went with them. Now we're paying an extra 4 points for Chosen over Chaos Warriors for that WS, and the extra roll on EoTG. Compared to the last book, that's ridiculous. Compared to the contents of the rest of the new book (where Chosen are the only unit capable of benefiting from EoTG as a whole) it's not as bad.

I'm not saying that Chosen are a complete waste now, even if there points are a bit ridiculous for infantry units, but compared to other elites, I don't think they were undercosted before.

I did mention that in my post on what the chosen doesn't have at the bottom, should I have included the halberd option for them? Which is generally one of the better choices they used. Generally I remember its the multiple stacking EoTG powers on them that helped them immensly, but 5 points for a roll on that table wasn't to bad, considering what was on it in 7th and you rerolled the bad choices. Not sure whats on there now though.

Is it me or has GW turned the Warriors of Chaos into the Monsters of Chaos? I know the majority of the core units are mostly 'regular' chaos warriors and marauders, but it seems too easy and even more tempting than before to make the Trolls your core and or minimize the traditional WoC core's use and proportion of your army. Instead of going the 'monster' route for your WoC army as a quirky alternative, it seems to be the focus now. Just my initial observation. The army is called the WARRIORS of Chaos, right?

 bigyounk wrote:
WoC got a big time nerf.
--Lore of Tzeentch is useless. Over half of their spells will end up giving your target opponent Regen. Infernal Gateway does not work the same.

Just cast the round template one on your own units...

 bigyounk wrote:

--The new Slaughterbrutes are Meh.
--Most of the Special Characters got cheaper but stayed pretty much the same, Galrauch is no longer a Loremaster.
--Forsaken and Chariots are now Core.

those aren't nerfs.


I really like the book. Fits perfectly in GW's vision of a balanced 8th Ed, imo.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I doubt 9th edition is closer than 2 years away.

ditto. In fact, I hope 8th Ed lasts at least another 3 years. My guess is we'll see the rumored DoC, HE and Lizardmen books, then probably Skaven, DE, Beastmen, and one of the 3 ancient books in any order. If they can somehow squeeze in all remaining Army Books that are needed for 8th, I'd be quite happy.

 bigyounk wrote:
So lets be honest:

Yes. Lets. I think you're overreacting on a whole lot of this.

-MoT for rank and file is still solid, for a caster it took a huge hit. Sorry but rerolling "1's" for channel vs +1 to cast is crap.
-MoN took a hit to, traded -1 BS & -1 WS when targeting to -1 to hit in Combat. Again it is a hit as the bane of WoC is shooty stuff not beat stick stuff.
-MoS still sucks

I don't know if I'd qualify MoT downgrade as a "huge" hit to casters. I strongly disagree with you on MoN- I'd far rather have a -1 to be hit in close combat. BS based shooting is relatively few and far between, and doesn't seem to me to make up a large amount of the real ranged threat out there (with a handful of notable exceptions). The -1 to hit in combat, however- that's huge, particularly when stacked with anything that reduces WS, like... say... the Lore of Nurgle. MoS didn't suck before, and doesn't suck now. It's cheap, and without Will of Chaos, its become arguably *more* important. It is hugely valuable on chaff- allowing flee paths through your own units, without worrying about cascading panics.

Also whoever put the "3" result in there needs to be pistol whipped, plain and simple.

Realize this is hyperbole, but really? Why not just consider it a The Eye is Closed from the old chart (which happened, by the way, on a 7, not a 3).

Much like every other edition there are 2 or 3 that are useful and the others are Meh.

I count one terrible one- Acid Ichor, a few so-so ones, some that look like they'd be handy for plugging a gap, and some really great ones (Nurgle's Rot, Soul Feeder, Chaos Familiar, Flaming Breath, maybe Unholy Strike)

Core:

Marauders and Warriors took nerfs with the Marauders really getting the shaft. Warriors are more expensive due to the pay per model for a mark. Not terrible, but the end result is it makes a small army smaller. Marauders are just not worth it.

At first blush, I agree on marauders, don't see much of a change to warriors- price per mark might strip unit size down by one or two in a typical unit.

Chosen are unplayable, entirely to expensive.

I think unplayable is an awfully strong word, and while they're not clearly a great choice, I think a number of players will in fact find them to be quite "playable".

Notice I left out Ogres and trolls. They are good solid choices but this is a Warriors of Chaos book, it is not OK or O&G, they should be a side note in this book, but they will probably take center stage.

Maybe- but I think Ogres and Trolls have been a part of Chaos longer than Ogre Kingdoms has existed, and at least as long as O&G have been around.

Again, as stated by me before, this is the WORST WoC book ever produced. It is a solid "D" compared to what is being played right now. Maybe 10 years from now when GW finally updates all the other books it might claw it's way back up to an "A", until then it is straight garbage.

Really think you've jumped to conclusions way too fast to be calling this a D. The old book may have been an A, but it had some really boring choices that I'm happy to see gone (Chosenstar, looking at you). My first instinct is that there's some room for flexibility with builds here that didn't exist before, and I'm excited to see where it goes.

Why has no one commented.on the fact that you can take warshrines as mounts now?

Because they don't serve any real purpose as mounts. There's no bonus for having it as a mount: You don't get wounds or other stats from it because it's a chariot, and even then it's basically a downgraded chariot.

If you really wanted one in a list, very few people will max out there 50% for special, and be forced to take a shrine as a mount rather than as a stand alone choice.

I think if having it as a mount allowed for a Sorcerer's wizard level to be counted towards the bound spell, it would be worth it. There are any number of things it could have gained as a mount: Loremaster, extra channels, etc.. There are endless possibilities and they kind of ignored it, making it a very lack-luster mount compared to all the cheaper, better alternatives.

Or the fact that the Gorebeast chariot is T6, killing blow a 3+ save with the option for Mark. With a mark this things is as expensive as a lion chariot.

WoC as whole got stronger and weaker in some areas (see every single army book released with 8th edition)

Daemon Princes went from utter to trash to absolutely terrifying gods of CC and magic.

Chosen and Marauders needed a point hike. Sorry you can't run your super cheap death stars anymore.



Calling this book unplayable is probably the most ignorant and misinformed comment i've seen posted in awhile. Get out play some games, write some lists. I think you'll be pleased with the results.

Spartan67 wrote:
Is it me or has GW turned the Warriors of Chaos into the Monsters of Chaos? I know the majority of the core units are mostly 'regular' chaos warriors and marauders, but it seems too easy and even more tempting than before to make the Trolls your core and or minimize the traditional WoC core's use and proportion of your army. Instead of going the 'monster' route for your WoC army as a quirky alternative, it seems to be the focus now. Just my initial observation. The army is called the WARRIORS of Chaos, right?

I preferred the old name Hordes of Chaos. Made much more sense

But then they got the bright idea of splitting the daemons and warriors, forcing the warriors to get more units to fill in the book. Which they promptly took off from the Beasts of Chaos

Really hope the next beastmen book will do them wonders. Like give them friggin marks again!

I think they wanted Marauders to cost 3...

I'm excited about 8th though. I wish they could release books faster. I'd buy em. DoC and Lizardmen would be AMAZING.

Oh, a few fluff things I noticed in the book I thought were cool:

-Chaos Armor is made by the gods themselves. Please look up the thread where I said this. I knew there was no way Chaos Dwarves could be making that much armor. It didn't make sense.
-The Gods value the souls (and attention) of mortals much more than Daemons/monsters/whatever. I assume that means Beastmen too. Because the gods literally exist because of mortals worshiping them and generally behaving badly. They have choices. But Daemons and Monsters (Beastmen?) really don't have any choice. A Cygor isn't going to become a vegetarian and dance on street corners for money. Therefore, a Daemon Prince can be more highly-valued than a Greater Daemon, even though he's less powerful.
-The Realm of Chaos can be entered if you go far enough north. I was a bit iffy on this. I knew the "winds blew" but I didn't know there was an actual hole in the north pole that you could walk into and knock on Khorne's front door. (One guy did this.) I'm not sure I like that as much. I mean one of the moons is made out of warpstone. And they talk about this big event or that big event happening when the moon is full, but that's a small consideration compared to an actual open DOORWAY to RoC.
-They hinted all the gods are just the split personalities of one god. They also say, quite cleverly, that no one knows and can talk about it because it's beyond mortals. Though they can't pull that trick in the DoC book.
-DP, when they become Daemons, can hang out in RoC or go to other dimensions on behalf of their god. So they get around.
-WoC are still humans. They eat, live, sleep, have babies so they can make new generations of WoC. They talk about them raiding the deep south and stealing the treasure from the Tomb Kings. And, like Pirates of the Carribean, the TK come back and return every last coin.

DukeRustfield wrote:

-The Realm of Chaos can be entered if you go far enough north. I was a bit iffy on this. I knew the "winds blew" but I didn't know there was an actual hole in the north pole that you could walk into and knock on Khorne's front door. (One guy did this.) I'm not sure I like that as much. I mean one of the moons is made out of warpstone. And they talk about this big event or that big event happening when the moon is full, but that's a small consideration compared to an actual open DOORWAY to RoC.

I thought it was always a portal up there

Yeah, its been like that for a while now.

same thing w/ the Warriors being "still humans". I think Duke was just saying fluff he liked, regardless if it was changed or not(?).

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
same thing w/ the Warriors being "still humans". I think Duke was just saying fluff he liked, regardless if it was changed or not(?).

Hmm I think the 7th book though does make Warriors feel less human than compared to marauders, almost like space marines.

And actually the 8th book's description is near identical to the 7th book. Warriors of Chaos dont need the comforts of human life.

You sure you're not confusing them marauders? (who are normal humans)

 kenshin620 wrote:

 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
same thing w/ the Warriors being "still humans". I think Duke was just saying fluff he liked, regardless if it was changed or not(?).

Hmm I think the 7th book though does make Warriors feel less human than compared to marauders, almost like space marines.

And actually the 8th book's description is near identical to the 7th book. Warriors of Chaos dont need the comforts of human life.

You sure you're not confusing them marauders? (who are normal humans)

I wasn't really thinking of the specific Warriors entry in the 7th Ed book, but really the lore pages before the unit entries. They make all North (even Lords) people seem like conscientious beings. I don't think it goes into them having kids and familes and whathaveyou, but it definitely gives them a civilized impression. To me at least.

edit:
Yeah I see now that Duke was referring more to physiological humanity and not psychological humanity (what I was referring to!). But even then, the 8th Ed Warrior entry says they still don't need food, sleep, etc...just like the 7th... so... I guess Duke just liked them being more human in their specific entry(?). *brain explodes*

 kenshin620 wrote:
I thought it was always a portal up there

I had got that there was something. But they made it clear it's literally a hole. You can't go to the North Pole of the world because you would bodily enter the Realm of Chaos before then. And any old person can do it (though damn hard). So you can have mortals walking around RoC because they made a wrong turn for gas and ended up there. I.e., it's bi-directional as opposed to just winds blowing out.

As for WoC being humans, you never get much of a sense of life in many books. You know exactly what happens with Lizardmen, where they come from, how they die, their social structure. Same with Empire. Same with Ogres (mostly). Same with TK (pretty simple). You got no clue about O&G. And WoC is still fairly nebulous. I mean, they talk about countless thousands and thousands of people dying but for that to happen countless thousands and thousands have to be born. So they have to have settlements. They have to have normal people who fish and farm and herd. They have to have school dances where little marauders fall in love, settle down and make babies. I get that it's not as sexy as demigods, but if you're going to make fluff, their society is part of it. It just felt weird to me they always talk about gazillions of people dying but not where they come from. If the Chaos incursions are getting worse it would have to be because the population is growing. And it doesn't seem to lend itself to a population on the rise what with constantly fighting, monsters eating you, and gods turning you into slime turds.

 Formosa wrote:
Why has no one commented.on the fact that you can take warshrines as mounts now?

The only reason for this, to me, is parking it behind a huge piece of terrain, trying to roll the Dameon Prince.

DukeRustfield wrote:

As for WoC being humans, you never get much of a sense of life in many books. You know exactly what happens with Lizardmen, where they come from, how they die, their social structure. Same with Empire. Same with Ogres (mostly). Same with TK (pretty simple). You got no clue about O&G. And WoC is still fairly nebulous. I mean, they talk about countless thousands and thousands of people dying but for that to happen countless thousands and thousands have to be born. So they have to have settlements. They have to have normal people who fish and farm and herd. They have to have school dances where little marauders fall in love, settle down and make babies. I get that it's not as sexy as demigods, but if you're going to make fluff, their society is part of it. It just felt weird to me they always talk about gazillions of people dying but not where they come from. If the Chaos incursions are getting worse it would have to be because the population is growing. And it doesn't seem to lend itself to a population on the rise what with constantly fighting, monsters eating you, and gods turning you into slime turds.

yeah I definitely like that too.

Before I ever got into Warhammer, my first impression of Chaos Northmen were that they were all soul-less, mind-less warriors serving the Chaos gods. After reading their 7th Ed book, I was pleasantly surprised of the human element added to their fluff. But aye, the 8th Ed does indulge a bit more into it.

-Chaos Armor is made by the gods themselves. Please look up the thread where I said this. I knew there was no way Chaos Dwarves could be making that much armor. It didn't make sense.

Chaos armor can be made by both, it's just usually granted to strong warriors, but sometimes the gods aren't kind enough to gift them.

-The Gods value the souls (and attention) of mortals much more than Daemons/monsters/whatever. I assume that means Beastmen too. Because the gods literally exist because of mortals worshiping them and generally behaving badly. They have choices. But Daemons and Monsters (Beastmen?) really don't have any choice. A Cygor isn't going to become a vegetarian and dance on street corners for money. Therefore, a Daemon Prince can be more highly-valued than a Greater Daemon, even though he's less powerful.

Always been true, however that does not mean the Greater Daemons are going to bow down before the DP, and more treat them like lesser beings. (Except by Nurgle, they are all great guys)

-The Realm of Chaos can be entered if you go far enough north. I was a bit iffy on this. I knew the "winds blew" but I didn't know there was an actual hole in the north pole that you could walk into and knock on Khorne's front door. (One guy did this.) I'm not sure I like that as much. I mean one of the moons is made out of warpstone. And they talk about this big event or that big event happening when the moon is full, but that's a small consideration compared to an actual open DOORWAY to RoC.

They had that, used to have a name too for it but I can't remember it right now. There's also one in the south but it's not "Activated" right now.

-They hinted all the gods are just the split personalities of one god. They also say, quite cleverly, that no one knows and can talk about it because it's beyond mortals. Though they can't pull that trick in the DoC book.

Gods are fickle things, like the fact that one of the aspects of the Skaven God is nurgle potentially. Things abound in the playgrounds of the gods.

-DP, when they become Daemons, can hang out in RoC or go to other dimensions on behalf of their god. So they get around.

Always been possible, especially back when they used to be able to clash with space marines. When they die they go to the RoC anyways due to their immortality.

-WoC are still humans. They eat, live, sleep, have babies so they can make new generations of WoC. They talk about them raiding the deep south and stealing the treasure from the Tomb Kings. And, like Pirates of the Carribean, the TK come back and return every last coin.

Always been true, though before it was said only the higher beings (Like chosen) Could live without food or hunger. An effect of their god.

I hope someone sees this question in the midst of all this madness, but...

What does the big tentacle monster do? I love Cthulhu stuff.

This book is blatently designed to make you buy more models. They made everything people play crappy and made other stuff more viable. You call it "balance" I call it marketing. GW has you all snowballed, they don't care about "balance" they care about profits. If they cared about balance their book release would be faster or they would FAQ clearly. WoC was on par with what was out there, now it is not. As stated maybe 7 years from now it will be in the top tiers but for now it isn't. I have a tourney this weekend and I fully expect to go 0-3 with this book (barring some insane dice god interference).

 bigyounk wrote:
GW has you all snowballed, they don't care about "balance" they care about profits. If they cared about balance their book release would be faster or they would FAQ clearly.

Everyone else already knows this. Why do you consider it to be such a monumental point to make?

Because people are ignoring this fact, they are stating that the book is balanced (like GW gives a crap about balance).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note I love how GW put out the shiny new Warshrine model months before the army book, to all those who bought it I say hahaha suckers. Also the new packaging of army books will prevent customers from realizing the suck value of new releases. Now I will have to wait for other suckers to buy it and open it. If I could have perused this book prior to the purchase I probably would have saved $50 and just shelved WHFB for 8 or 9 years.

 Tangent wrote:
I hope someone sees this question in the midst of all this madness, but...

What does the big tentacle monster do? I love Cthulhu stuff.

The Vortex beast targets units with an innate bound spell that causes D6 toughness tests, failed tests makes wounds. Then roll a D6 and see what happens to the unit

Edit: @bigyounk- (Posts went up while I was typing)

Sounds like your FLGS needs to step up a little. Our store in Austin always has a display copy that everyone is welcome to flip through.

I prefer the packaging like this- now when I get a new book, I don't have to inspect it to see if its been pre-handled by a bunch of gamers.

Personally, I don't buy the "GW doesn't care about balance" argument. I think they're not very adept at making it happen, but I think they're trying. If the units in the book were all equally balanced, I think it sells *more* models as people try out various builds.

Example: Cranking the points up on marauders doesn't make sense if you think about it on a real money per point basis. Now someone who wants to include Khorne GW marauders is buying half as many. If buying them at all. There's no point in making a unit intentionally useless, then paying to produce, package, ship it, and have it take up wall space/storage space, all of which cost time and labor.

I know GW's is a self-described miniatures company first. But I think they sell more from a balanced book than they do from one that is intentionally unbalanced. I think the conspiracy theorists are letting emotion cloud their judgement a bit here.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 Tangent wrote:
I hope someone sees this question in the midst of all this madness, but...

What does the big tentacle monster do? I love Cthulhu stuff.

The Vortex beast targets units with an innate bound spell that causes D6 toughness tests, failed tests makes wounds. Then roll a D6 and see what happens to the unit

Cool, thanks. It definitely sounds appropriately weird. I'm assuming the "D6 to see what happens" occurs regardless of whether or not wounds are caused by the toughness tests?

Did anyone notice the disc is now three strength four attacks?

 Red_Zeke wrote:
Did anyone notice the disc is now three strength four attacks?

And no longer flaming But pretty sure the Hordes disc was a little more beastly on the attak as well, it was the last book that made it merely a Flight upgrade

Other mounts seemed to be fairly unchanged? Though palanquin was clarified as Monstrous Beast, not weird pseudo-Infantry, so that solves some old conundrums. And juggers providing slightly less awesome of a save makes another change.

- Salvage