Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys, here with a question. What were the Smurfs up to during the Age of Apostasy, most importantly did any chapters back Vandire?

The only fluff I've found on it is a white wash, claiming the chapters were isolated by warp storms (all of them!?) and had just been itching at the bit to kick Space Hitler's ****, same with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Now this may be canonically true but it sounds to me like an official story put out after the fact. Once the Thorians were gaining momentum, weary power blocs moved against a weakening Vandire who they had at least offered tacit support to prior. After all Vandire's reign lasted a century and considering his personal armies had enough freedom of movement to dominate swathes of the galaxy, I find the warp storm excuse partially true at best.

Despite being a nutter, Vandire was head of the Imperium and in terms of his actions' results was effectively just (just!) a genocidal zealot. That doesn't sound like something the Smurfs would find all too horrifying considering, save a few exceptions, they aren't very nice people themselves.

Does anyone have any more detail on individual chapters or the Smurfs in general during the period?

I ask out of curiousity as I'm planning to get back into the game with a simple vanilla SM army but a bit of interesting fluff always helps IMO. Taking the forgiveness towards chapters like the Lamenters who fought the Imperium under false assumptions, as long as they went on crusade, I thought a chapter that defended Vandire under the pretext he was the legitimate ruler of Terra might get a similar fate. After all the Sisters of Battles were his praetorian and they remain.

My idea was a band of 'pauper knights' dubbed the Marines Penitent*, forever crusading in ancient, rusting gear in the name of forgiveness for their fanatical support of Vandire. However this is the secret of the chapter, not too mention their records being (supposedly) the only left from the period that show other chapters, both great and small, backed the madman before turning. As such they are shunned and feared by a select few who know their significance. Unlike the issue of the Fallen, I see this as a more political problem than 'moral' as plenty of institutions switched sides during the Age of Apostasy, but the Smurfs obviously are invested in their role as the best of the best. As such the Marines Penitent are looked down as reminders of a black episode in the history of the Astartes the rest have tried to forget.

In my mind I imagine the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Black Templars would have been pro-Vandire ( ) at least to start off, being so either by the book or zealous his insanity is no bother. Indeed I imagine a lot of Smurfs would have only turned once he disrespected their autonomy.

*Either as a single chapter who renamed themselves after or possibly as a new 'exile chapter' for Loyalists who stuck it out and went against their own rebellious comrades.

Any comments are appreciated.

I believe most of the Chapters either ignored Vandire entirely, or found themselves "busy" doing other Space Marine things, like fighting Xenos and defending their own Home-Worlds and Chapter-controlled territories. Just because the Imperium is busy turning on itself does not mean that the Xeno or the Arch-Enemy stop.

The Ecclesiarchal forces were more than enough to prosecute whatever wars Vandire pointed them at and, seeing as he was a sort of despotic zealot horn-dog, he might have been reluctant to use the Space Marines, as they are both considered other-than-human by the Ecclesiarchy (in both good and bad ways) and, also, because they might have made Vandire feel.... inadequate.

Fair enough but what Vandire was fighting was often Chaos influenced cults and countless heresies, some that only had passing connections to the Imperial Creed. Both seem legitimate threats the Astartes would have battled without central command. Combine with the increasing viciousness of Vandire's rule I can see quite a grey backdrop emerging.

They hate Vandire but he is their chosen Lord who as far as they know does indeed speak to the Emperor in-trance. Meanwhile the Thorians are rebellious upstarts (one of hundreds if not thousands) spreading a Reformation. This is a lot less clear cut than the Horus Heresy. Plus I'm sure all Imperial institutions are very weary of such uprising against Terra due to the Horus Heresy's legacy.

In my mind the fall of Vandire was less a true civil war than a coup triggered by the Thorians, an excuse for groups (Mars, Astartes) uneasy with his megalomania finally pulling the rug out.

Considering events like the Badab War, is it unbelievable some leaders would have, in the chaos of the Confederation of Light's rise, deem it 'better the devil you know', fearful Thor might have ulterior motives or lead to the destruction of the Imperium.

Astartes aren't usually going to show up to fight a bunch of human cultists, not when there's Traitor Marines or face-eating space-horrors to combat. Human cults are generally easily handled by IG/Arbiter forces, up until actual Daemons start showing up, though this is actually a rare event. You have to remember that most Space Marine Chapters pick and choose their battles, deciding when and where they will fight, and how. If, collectively, the SM decide that Vandire is a douchenozzle, they can, conveniently, have "other enemies requiring the Chapter's full attention" elsewhere. It's not like Vandire has a space-telescope to show him that there isn't really a Dark Eldar city being built on Rogue Planetoid 448-Theta Kappa-421 in the Segmentum Obscurus, or that the Halo Stars are seeing an upswing in incidences of the Color Out of Space infecting Agri-Worlds.

I concede that point, I hadn't thought of that. Due to their dominance of GW media and armies played on the tabletop, its easy to forget they are a tiny elite force. Also nice Lovecraft reference.

I'd say go for it.

There's nothing on this in the fluff from any source, but the possibility presents itself as a mere matter of deduction. Arguably, no Space Marine Chapter would have just turned away from Terra as a central authority the moment Vandire rose to power, especially since the institution of the Senatorum was kept intact until shortly before the end. Just like dissent amongst Vandire's men arose only in time rather than immediately, I'd deem it safe to assume that the Chapters would have just ceased to respond to requests and orders one by one as the years go by, and the Marines grow more and more sceptical as to whether they're doing the right thing. So, just have your Chapter be one of the last who stood by Vandire's side, at first out of their strong sense of loyalty, then later backed into a corner as Vandire's enemies oppose them and they find themselves with few political friends outside the mad High Lord's own cronies. You could even have an old feud with another Chapter come into play here!

However, I'd recommend that your Chapter would back out of the conflict before the palace siege begins. How about they got posted right in the path of the attacking armada? Perhaps said armada's identity was still unknown as the force entered the Sol system, but upon seeing that it consists of four Chapters of brother Space Marines, your guys' ships power down their guns and let them pass unmolested, realising their error in the very last moment?
Alternatively, they could have been ordered to purge one of the "rogue" Marine Chapters who dared to voice support for Thor, and refused to carry out this fratricidal order?

Either way, it'd be perfectly okay for them to have a record of being responsible for the subjugation of a number of revolts against Vandire's rule. There is actually a lot of Codex fluff about Space Marines fighting secessionists, so it's not like they would just move on, deeming such an enemy below their standards:
The Ultramarines put down the Trenor Uprising by assassinating key leaders with nothing but a bunch of Scouts. Marneus Calgar led his Space Marines against a rebel army led by some General Dornal on the industrial world of Knarts Landing. Sergeant Lysander of the Imperial Fists was awarded the Imperial Laurel for holding a bridge against rebels on the world Iduno for fourteen hours. The 3E Codex even contains an entire page of complaints by an Inquisitor Grim who bitches about how the White Panthers caused too much unnecessary damage as they put down a rebellion on Kethra.

If a region of space is otherwise "quiet", a Chapter is not engaged in an ongoing campaign or currently recovering from losses, few Chapter Masters would refuse to act against an act of open secession from the Imperium based on nothing but a whim. There's always a reason for their response (or lack thereof), even if it's as insignificant as being hurt in pride or not liking the guy/institution who issued the order due to past experiences (Space Wolves), or following some secret agenda (Dark Angels). If they have no cause to "be lazy", they may well move out and respond, just like Inquisitor Grim describes it in his report. After all, in spite of the special concessions granted in matters of faith and hierarchy, they remain warriors of the Imperium - in the minds of others as well as in their own.

 Lynata wrote:
snip

*
That's some interesting background and some good suggestions, I appreciate it.

I like the rivalry idea, say a particularly 'maverick' chapter offends the *Marines Penitent's sense of duty during a campaign, and when these rivals side with Thor it blinds them to the bigger picture. A combination of orthodox religious faith and sense of duty keeps them loyal to Vandire even as they lose confidence in his judgement. Perhaps the slow detachment of many chapters from central authority is seen as self-serving against unswerving loyalty to the Throne which only helps to alienate them from many Astartes?

Perhaps not "orthodox religious faith" - that would be rather unusual for Astartes - but Holy Terra is Holy Terra, and the Senate is the Senate. Your last sentence already uses just the right wording.

Also, I think the "maverick" Chapter is a good idea! Delicate political situations often have more than one side of a story to tell, and the old rule of "it takes two" holds true more often than not.

Sounds like a cool idea for a Chapter.
Having said that, a few notes to your original premise:
Not all SM Chapters were cut off due to warp storms, as you noted. Most decided to simply wait by the sidelines while the Imperium sorted itself out.
Also, the increased warp storms throughout the Galaxy meant that a greater than usual amount of rebellions, chaos uprisings and xenos invasions needed to be stopped. With the rest of the Imperium beset by civil war and the Ecclesiarchy's ever-more demanding tithes, they were basically the only ones available and indepent enough to take care of this.

Cheers Lynata and Bran for the help. I think I'm getting a rough idea of what I want.

I might post a fleshed out fluff piece in the near future.

 Jape wrote:
Hi guys, here with a question. What were the Smurfs up to during the Age of Apostasy

Doing what they do best, trying to avoid conflict, much like they did during the heresy .. BOOM