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K, a Menoth player is giving me (Everblight) a headace, he always throw Enliven on the Avatar of Menoth. Of course I try to hunt that little Vassal bastard down, but he is a very good player. So I've been pondering this:

Proteus drag weapon (read tentacles):

A drag weapon states "If this weapon damages an enemy model with an equal or smaller base, immediatly after the attack is resolved the damaged model can be pushed any distance towards this model."

And Enliven says:
"Inext time it suffers damage from an enemy attack while it's not advancing, immediately after the attack is resolved, the warjack can make a full advance,"

So.. what happens? Im my logic is goes like this:
1.
Avatar gets damaged -> He is moved -> then the drag can drag him back towards Proteus (or any other drag weapon)

Or:

2: Avatar gets damaged -> he is dragged -> then moves away

For my own use, either these are fine, the Avatar is still closer then he were. the first option being the most profitable one of course.

What are you take on it?

Since both have the same timing it will be the active players choice on which to resolve first. Because you (everblight) are the active player you will have the choice. But there is another complication with this. If you tell him to move he could move so that there is a model between it and the Proteus and would block the drag because it doesn't drag through models. The other option is to drag first then let him move. I don't think that Enliven ignores free strikes so if he tried to move out of your melee range you would get a free strike with the melee tentacle and drag him back to you. Then you could make the normal free attack from drag after his movement.

pretty ambigious, but i'm going with 2, because of the following:, I dont see it in the faq either.

i'dd say:

1. you roll damage, see he is damaged, then you mark off boxes to suffer the damage, so in theory, order of operations, drag happens first
2. whenever this stuff comes up for my little group whoevers turn it is's effect happens first.
3. I thought enliven was next time he is hit, not suffers damage, but this is off the top of my head

remember he doesn't get to enliven until damaged, so something as simple as headbutting, a lock which prevents movement, throwing a pleb at him, or running legionaires around him pretty much nixes its benefit.

Ah, active player! Thank you, and yes, Enliven ignores free strikes.

If you tell him to move he could move so that there is a model between it and the Proteus and would block the drag because it doesn't drag through models.

Excellent point! I will keep that in mind.

 Grundz wrote:
pretty ambigious, but i'm going with 2, because of the following:, I dont see it in the faq either.

i'dd say:

1. you roll damage, see he is damaged, then you mark off boxes to suffer the damage, so in theory, order of operations, drag happens first
2. whenever this stuff comes up for my little group whoevers turn it is's effect happens first.
3. I thought enliven was next time he is hit, not suffers damage, but this is off the top of my head

remember he doesn't get to enliven until damaged, so something as simple as headbutting, a lock which prevents movement, throwing a pleb at him, or running legionaires around him pretty much nixes its benefit.

Yeah, I quoted the rules that, thanks for the insight, special on the headbutting!

page 76 says that in the event of simultanious actions, the active player chooses

So you pick option 1.


And the Menoth player needs to step up his game. The Avatar should have been given Passage so you can't target him with your silly tenticles in the first place.

Yeah, I quoted the rules that, thanks for the insight, special on the headbutting!

If you want to be a real jerk, when he engages with enliven up (assuming you have more than one beast or he survives), slam the model (your own) he is engaging into him, knocking them both down, then you can spend 1 fury to shake the knockdown and still get your initial attacks, I do the same thing chucking my own spawning vat members at targets both to feed the vat and knock dudes down

I always bring a Naga Nightlurker against Menoth (gives magical and blessed weapons with it's animus)
And he has learned this ;D

 Grundz wrote:

Yeah, I quoted the rules that, thanks for the insight, special on the headbutting!

If you want to be a real jerk, when he engages with enliven up (assuming you have more than one beast or he survives), slam the model (your own) he is engaging into him, knocking them both down, then you can spend 1 fury to shake the knockdown and still get your initial attacks, I do the same thing chucking my own spawning vat members at targets both to feed the vat and knock dudes down

So... evil!

He usaly goes with eSeverus, I am thinking of using Saeryn with this, and it would be aawesome to get her Breath stealer spell (-2spd & def) on him


Though if he moves behind cover, I can drag him still right?

 Thorheim wrote:

So... evil!

I'm all about the movement shananagins, (reznik is my other caster/army) I admit i'm not the greatest player by a long shot, but I've gotten caster kills on people I consider good with outrageous sillyness, but I play like chess, I guarantee that pretty much every turn if you don't counter my turn, i'll have an incubi, beast, or something biting your casters face off after being slam/thrown/feated/whatever past your stuff, lol.

slamming/throwing your own dudes is your friend!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
as for dragging through cover, I don't see why not, unseeing eyes lets you target him and the wording on the ability just lets you drag however far you want

 Grundz wrote:

Yeah, I quoted the rules that, thanks for the insight, special on the headbutting!

If you want to be a real jerk, when he engages with enliven up (assuming you have more than one beast or he survives), slam the model (your own) he is engaging into him, knocking them both down, then you can spend 1 fury to shake the knockdown and still get your initial attacks, I do the same thing chucking my own spawning vat members at targets both to feed the vat and knock dudes down

If a model is knocked down on its own player's turn it cannot stand up, even if it has not activated yet.

Not quite right. It can get up. The model just has to forfiet either its move or attack actions. If the model can't be knocked down then it still must forfiet either of its actions.
Some of the abilities that allow a model to stand up state that they do not effect a model that is knocked down that turn but that doesn't mean that they can't get up on their own.

Page 44.

"A knocked down model can stand up at the start of its next activation unless it was knocked down during its controllers turn; in that case it cannot stand up until its controller's next turn even if it has not yet activated this turn."

yeah thats news to me, I was under the impression it could sac its movement

See page 245 of Warmachine prime:

Note that both effects trigger "Immediately after the attack is resolved" rather than triggering at the time of damage.For effects like these they're taking place in step 12 of the attack main sequence.

b"Resolve active player effects that do not involve making do not involve making an attack"
c Resolve inactive player effects
d Resolve active player effects that involve making an attack.

Drag involves making an attack, so it resolves in step d after enliven has happened in step c.


Note that there is no choice involved here, there is some confusion up thread. When effects would trigger the same time typically due to being at same point in steps in the Attack Roll, Damage Roll or Damage application the active player resolves effects on *THEIR* models first in an order they choose, then the inactive player applies affects on their models in an order they choose. At no point do you ever have influence when your opponent resolves their effects regardless of if you're the active or inactive player, you only get to choose what order your effects resolve in and the active player goes first.

yeah thats news to me, I was under the impression it could sac its movement

Sort of. If a model would be knocked down during a turn but can't be due a to a rule like Steady, Gravus' "Brother's Keeper", No Sleeping on the Job etc... if it activates that turn it must still sac either it's movement or action despite the fact it's still standing.

EDIT (Again)

Though if he moves behind cover, I can drag him still right?

Drag is a push. So anything that would stop a push stops drag: Another model, obstruction or obstacle. Many of these might constitute what you call "Cover". Note that walls are linear obstacles, I can't find anything on quick search about if linear obstacles fall within some general "obstacle" class that prevents pushing. My gut is that they stop it just because for typing purposes PP tends to put what they mean in the name. Still you might want to post over at the PP forums to get a clarification from an infernal. At any rate there is much cover you can't push something over, and thus can't drag over.

Chongara has all the right quotes and rules references. About the wall. Agree with your opponent what all the terrain is on the table is but a linear obstacle will stop a push in my opinion.

Chongara has it all right there. The cliff notes:

Enliven activates, then the drag happens, due to timing sequence on P245.

If you get knocked down in your turn you can't activate, unless you have some way of standing up like the Gator Wraster's 'Rise' Animus.

You shake effects during your control phase, not during your activation.

If you get slammed or thrown during your turn and you can't be knocked down, you must still forfeit either movement or action.

Chongara wrote:
See page 245 of Warmachine prime:
Sort of. If a model would be knocked down during a turn but can't be due a to a rule like Steady, Gravus' "Brother's Keeper", No Sleeping on the Job etc... if it activates that turn it must still sac either it's movement or action despite the fact it's still standing.

what if I slam/throw/whatever a model that is immune to knockdown (like say, via menoth book man) does he still have to sac something? (I'm guessing no)

 Grundz wrote:

Chongara wrote:
See page 245 of Warmachine prime:
Sort of. If a model would be knocked down during a turn but can't be due a to a rule like Steady, Gravus' "Brother's Keeper", No Sleeping on the Job etc... if it activates that turn it must still sac either it's movement or action despite the fact it's still standing.

what if I slam/throw/whatever a model that is immune to knockdown (like say, via menoth book man) does he still have to sac something? (I'm guessing no)

Yes, this is exactly the sort of effect I was referring to.

But that model could still use Enliven.