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 More Dakka wrote:

That said, people seem to tout Biovores in the Nids dex at 45 points for a S4 large blast barrage, why is 75 points for a TL S6 large blast barrage not a decent choice? Competition for the HS slot or just redundancy as far as S6-7 goes for IG with the rest of the army list?

It's that they're competing in HS slot (guards most powerful slot) with stuff that does a lot more, and is a lot more effective at more things that guard need.

Yeah I basically abandoned the idea of using them to snipe after I posted it. I hate units that try to do 2 things less than optimally.

Ever since Hydras ate the nerfbat I have this 150 point hole to fill. Not really into taking a turret only russ, so I'm considering dual Gryphons.

My HS is usually 2 Manticores, I'm feeling like Gryphons are one of those nondescript units that largely gets ignored in favor of bigger fish.

I generally use my Manticores to open the heavier duty tin cans and 2 accurate S6 large blasts seem like a good way to pulp whatever falls out of them.

I just feel there is some parallel between them and Biovores that warrants investigation.

Back to artillery batteries. 2 units of 2 Basilisks and maybe a pair of Colossi? Comes in at 780 points, wrap them in blobs, and warp the blobs in an ADL, then just use residual PIS to grab objectives? I'd also consider Vendettas with cheap scoring in them too. Doesn't matter how face-smashing your list is in 6th, if you don't get on those objectives you're screwed in most missions in my experience to date.

Its really the manticore to blame. 2 griffins are 150 while a manticore is 160 and averages the same number of pie plates a turn with longer range, higher strength and is closed topped. Heck, thats why you usually don't see too many basilisk batteries. Plus its easier to deploy a manitcore rather then 3 squadroned artillery tanks, let alone 9!

It's true, part of my thinking is that I have these 2 chimera chassis converted up to take some kind of gun on the top of them now, kinda feels like a waste to not use them and buy a 3rd Manticore instead, though I have had those games where the damned things both keep rolling 1's and 2's all day and I'd give anything for a guaranteed 2 shots.

 More Dakka wrote:
Yeah I basically abandoned the idea of using them to snipe after I posted it. I hate units that try to do 2 things less than optimally.

Ever since Hydras ate the nerfbat I have this 150 point hole to fill. Not really into taking a turret only russ, so I'm considering dual Gryphons.

My HS is usually 2 Manticores, I'm feeling like Gryphons are one of those nondescript units that largely gets ignored in favor of bigger fish.

I generally use my Manticores to open the heavier duty tin cans and 2 accurate S6 large blasts seem like a good way to pulp whatever falls out of them.

I just feel there is some parallel between them and Biovores that warrants investigation.

Back to artillery batteries. 2 units of 2 Basilisks and maybe a pair of Colossi? Comes in at 780 points, wrap them in blobs, and warp the blobs in an ADL, then just use residual PIS to grab objectives? I'd also consider Vendettas with cheap scoring in them too. Doesn't matter how face-smashing your list is in 6th, if you don't get on those objectives you're screwed in most missions in my experience to date.

As I said, just try them. I was surprised how effective they can be in my games, ands are a huge pain in my opponents sides. Where it really shines is taking out grot squad objective holders. They cant hide, you are more accurate and you rally dont want to be firing expensive ordinance like manticores at such squads. Their small foot print makes them hard to hit and you are using a hammer to swat flies. Griffins all the way for clean up duty.

Plus as you said, they are great for filling that 150 pt hole a lot of us gained. My hydras are paper weights now lol I am going to magnetize canons to slide on top so they can be artillery or hydras should they become decent again.

 More Dakka wrote:
Yeah I basically abandoned the idea of using them to snipe after I posted it. I hate units that try to do 2 things less than optimally.

Ever since Hydras ate the nerfbat I have this 150 point hole to fill. Not really into taking a turret only russ, so I'm considering dual Gryphons.

My HS is usually 2 Manticores, I'm feeling like Gryphons are one of those nondescript units that largely gets ignored in favor of bigger fish.

I generally use my Manticores to open the heavier duty tin cans and 2 accurate S6 large blasts seem like a good way to pulp whatever falls out of them.

I just feel there is some parallel between them and Biovores that warrants investigation.

Back to artillery batteries. 2 units of 2 Basilisks and maybe a pair of Colossi? Comes in at 780 points, wrap them in blobs, and warp the blobs in an ADL, then just use residual PIS to grab objectives? I'd also consider Vendettas with cheap scoring in them too. Doesn't matter how face-smashing your list is in 6th, if you don't get on those objectives you're screwed in most missions in my experience to date.

Why not take a Bastion Breacher Medusa to open up said tin cans, and then use Manticores to pulp the squishy inside bits?

BB Medusa will kill much better than wasting manticores on vehicles. Those guys are fantastic anti-horde. Their ability to damage vehicles should be considered as naught more than icing on on the cake.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Griffins rock, and in 6th with less armor and barrage sniping they are even more useful. Generally people who have the biggest problem with the griffin are the biggest theory hammer players around. Field a few and you will see just how useful they are.

Don't get me wrong, I like the griffon. 2 of them in one unit can really help pick off a marine SW trooper, or cut up hordes. I just do not like them for spotting. It's a silly way to use them.
I had been using a couple for a while, and they really are a work horse, but unfortunately they're out shined by the Manticore.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Its really the manticore to blame. 2 griffins are 150 while a manticore is 160 and averages the same number of pie plates a turn with longer range, higher strength and is closed topped. Heck, thats why you usually don't see too many basilisk batteries. Plus its easier to deploy a manitcore rather then 3 squadroned artillery tanks, let alone 9!

But the Manticore lacks one very important thing: accuracy. The Griffon's "accurate bombardment" rule is extremely useful, it gives you a much higher chance of getting direct hits or very low scatter, and it almost entirely eliminates the problem of getting a bad first shot that guarantees your second shot will miss. Add in the fact that the Griffon always gets its two shots instead of having to roll a D3 for them and it's a much more consistent unit.

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Those guys are fantastic anti-horde. Their ability to damage vehicles should be considered as naught more than icing on on the cake.

Honestly this is why you take Griffons. The Manticore is primarily an anti-horde unit, and the Griffon is a much better anti-horde unit (both wound on a 2+ with AP 4, the Griffon is more accurate). If you're going to bring specialized anti-tank units that can do more than strip HP (especially if your metagame no longer has parking lots everywhere) off Rhinos then you might as well trade that secondary anti-tank role for better anti-horde performance.

 Peregrine wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Those guys are fantastic anti-horde. Their ability to damage vehicles should be considered as naught more than icing on on the cake.

Honestly this is why you take Griffons. The Manticore is primarily an anti-horde unit, and the Griffon is a much better anti-horde unit (both wound on a 2+ with AP 4, the Griffon is more accurate). If you're going to bring specialized anti-tank units that can do more than strip HP (especially if your metagame no longer has parking lots everywhere) off Rhinos then you might as well trade that secondary anti-tank role for better anti-horde performance.

My biggest problem with Griffons is that they are overspecialized.

They can't pop T4/T5 fnp deathstars as well as the Manticore, nor can they be used against vehicles reliably against an enemy lacking in horde elements. Many armies simply render them useless by a matter of army-type.

They're very good at their role, I just find their role too specific.

I could see running something like this.

HQ Squad, 2 Inf Platoons. 7 Chimeras
3 Basilisks
3 Colossus
3 Medusas
ADL with Quad Gun ( for intercepting deep strikes or flyers)

The ADL and Chimeras could provide a decent wall to protect the Artillery and you will get several turns to lay waste to the opponent. If they try to sit back and shoot, then you'll crush them. Advancing to try and get into CC will just see them getting blown apart as well. An all reserve force like Drop Pods would be tough. But, I'd hate to play against this list with most of my own.

@ Peregin- Well that was basically my point. I was simply outlining why you don't see the griffin more often, and the answer still is the manticore. I personally prefer the reliability of the griffin and also I like that it is specialized, with manticores I have all to often wasted a turn trying to crack a tank when I should have dispatched infantry. In my armies my infantry and vendettas provide more then enough AT. So it's easy for me to grab the consistent griffins over the other options but for others they like the gamble of the manticore. I have got the 3 pie plates and rolled all hits with my manticore, but that is to few and far between for my taste.

@Griddlelol- I don't disagree with your point either, just stating that until I have personally seen, read or used it as a spotter I won't disregard it entirely. I will apply salt however.

 CaptainGrey wrote:
They can't pop T4/T5 fnp deathstars as well as the Manticore, nor can they be used against vehicles reliably against an enemy lacking in horde elements.

But the point is that the Manticore can't really do these things either. Against death stars it ignores FNP, but it doesn't ignore armor saves and therefore doesn't do all that much better than a Griffon. Against vehicles it's clearly better, but nowhere near the effectiveness of true anti-vehicle units in 6th. The Griffon, on the other hand, gives up these secondary roles in exchange for being much better at the thing you take either unit to do: killing hordes.

 Peregrine wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
They can't pop T4/T5 fnp deathstars as well as the Manticore, nor can they be used against vehicles reliably against an enemy lacking in horde elements.

But the point is that the Manticore can't really do these things either. Against death stars it ignores FNP, but it doesn't ignore armor saves and therefore doesn't do all that much better than a Griffon. Against vehicles it's clearly better, but nowhere near the effectiveness of true anti-vehicle units in 6th. The Griffon, on the other hand, gives up these secondary roles in exchange for being much better at the thing you take either unit to do: killing hordes.

If by better, you mean "more accurate", then yes. But the Manticore averages twice the shots of a Griffon per salvo. With the capacity to fire 3x the shots.

In a list being tailored against a Horde army, by all means take the Griffon. But the Manticore is far more TAC.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
They can't pop T4/T5 fnp deathstars as well as the Manticore, nor can they be used against vehicles reliably against an enemy lacking in horde elements.

But the point is that the Manticore can't really do these things either. Against death stars it ignores FNP, but it doesn't ignore armor saves and therefore doesn't do all that much better than a Griffon. Against vehicles it's clearly better, but nowhere near the effectiveness of true anti-vehicle units in 6th. The Griffon, on the other hand, gives up these secondary roles in exchange for being much better at the thing you take either unit to do: killing hordes.

If by better, you mean "more accurate", then yes. But the Manticore averages twice the shots of a Griffon per salvo. With the capacity to fire 3x the shots.

In a list being tailored against a Horde army, by all means take the Griffon. But the Manticore is far more TAC.

False, you get a battery of 2 griffins for cheaper then one manticore so you actually get the same number of shots on average with no fluctuation and twice the accuracy not only on the initial shot but also on the second pie flip. Manitcores can have three but can also have just one, and three shots do not help very much if you scatter on the first. Which is most probable. I don't see why taking two griffins in a TAC list seems impossible for you.

I'm sold. Going to have to try running Griffons now in 6th.

I love that GW made a whole new rule 'Accurate Bombardment' instead of just saying twin-linked..

ers126 wrote:
I'm sold. Going to have to try running Griffons now in 6th.

I love that GW made a whole new rule 'Accurate Bombardment' instead of just saying twin-linked..

I find it rather silly to be honest. If I told my opponent that my Griffon had the twin linked special rule, he'd know what it means. If I say "it's got the accurate bombardment special rule" I then have to explain that it's essentially the same as twin linked.

I dunno, I find it silly that there's special rules that aren't just written as a USR. I guess it's just a relic from old rule books and codex writing as it seems to be less common in the new codices.

It's simple: twin-linked = two weapons mounted side by side. The Griffon only has one mortar, so it isn't a twin-linked weapon.

Well yes, but instead of confusing new players they could have had something like "accurate bombardment: the griffon counts as twin-linked"
Retains flavour and doesn't add a whole extra rule for new players to remember. Similarly the wording is different from twin linked as it states roll the scatter dice. To a new player that could be ambiguous considering dice can be both singular and plural in common speech. Yes it's incorrect, but that doesn't stop people from using it that way.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
Yeah I basically abandoned the idea of using them to snipe after I posted it. I hate units that try to do 2 things less than optimally.

Ever since Hydras ate the nerfbat I have this 150 point hole to fill. Not really into taking a turret only russ, so I'm considering dual Gryphons.

My HS is usually 2 Manticores, I'm feeling like Gryphons are one of those nondescript units that largely gets ignored in favor of bigger fish.

I generally use my Manticores to open the heavier duty tin cans and 2 accurate S6 large blasts seem like a good way to pulp whatever falls out of them.

I just feel there is some parallel between them and Biovores that warrants investigation.

Back to artillery batteries. 2 units of 2 Basilisks and maybe a pair of Colossi? Comes in at 780 points, wrap them in blobs, and warp the blobs in an ADL, then just use residual PIS to grab objectives? I'd also consider Vendettas with cheap scoring in them too. Doesn't matter how face-smashing your list is in 6th, if you don't get on those objectives you're screwed in most missions in my experience to date.

As I said, just try them. I was surprised how effective they can be in my games, ands are a huge pain in my opponents sides. Where it really shines is taking out grot squad objective holders. They cant hide, you are more accurate and you rally dont want to be firing expensive ordinance like manticores at such squads. Their small foot print makes them hard to hit and you are using a hammer to swat flies. Griffins all the way for clean up duty.

Plus as you said, they are great for filling that 150 pt hole a lot of us gained. My hydras are paper weights now lol I am going to magnetize canons to slide on top so they can be artillery or hydras should they become decent again.

Hey, teacher!

Leave my grots alone!

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, you can make artillery work.

The chief thing you've got to stay away from is manticores, though, as you can't squad them, and three manticores does not an artillery company make. Take a mix of colossuses and medusas, or just spam the hell out of basilisks and, with good infantry support, you can still do some pretty decent damage with your alpha strike.

The important point, though, is to keep things cheap so you can bring as many as you can. Because they're in squads, those artillery pieces are going to have to more or less kill something dead every turn, which means you're going to need a lot of them (given that they can't take good hull weapons).

What about 6x manticores behind a gunline and aegis? 2000 points, double FoC

CCS
4x plasma
120

inf platoon
-pcs, 4xgl/flamer
50

-commissar
35

-inf squad, gl
55

-inf squad, gl
55

vets
3x plasma
115

manticore 160

manticore 160

manticore 160

adl, quadgun
100

CCS
4x plasma
120

inf platoon
-pcs, 4xgl/flamer
50

-commissar
35

-inf squad, gl
55


-inf squad, gl
55

vets
3x plasma
115

manticore 160

manticore 160

manticore 160

adl, quadgun
100

I periodically run a large contingent of artillery units with my apoc guard list. I really enjoy doing the "king and queen of battle" list, basically a lot of infantry and a lot or artillery, self propelled or otherwise. We had a large scale game on June 6 that was normandy themed, with the space marines assaulting the guard, and let me tell you, on the right mission and in a well defended board, arty can reap a terrible toll on attackers. I had a trio of basilisks, a trio of griffons, 2 hydras, 2 manticores, 1 deathstrike, 2 collossus, and around 5 full size platoons of infantry (this was a large game). Each of the infantry platoons had at least 1 unit of mortars in it, and with some of the standard squads, the mortar was their designated heavy weapon.

While pinning will not be much of an issue with ATSKNF space marines, against almost any other army, that much pinning fire power will cause them to languish on the target zone.

In the game I referred to, my bassies alone took out around 56-60 marines, 2 landraiders, and a great many rhinos. The trouble with army is that you get the most use the longer you keep your opponent away, and with the advent of derp striking termies, etc., you want to have that arty well protected by bodies and spread yourself throughout your deployment to avoid a drop pod in the mouth.

That's my three cents any.

 Red Corsair wrote:

False, you get a battery of 2 griffins for cheaper then one manticore so you actually get the same number of shots on average with no fluctuation and twice the accuracy not only on the initial shot but also on the second pie flip. Manitcores can have three but can also have just one, and three shots do not help very much if you scatter on the first. Which is most probable. I don't see why taking two griffins in a TAC list seems impossible for you.

Except we were doing a side by side comparison, not a point for point. So no, not false.

Second, three shots will still be quite good even if you scatter the first, unless you scatter a mile.

Third; Because Griffons are anti-horde, and there are better TAC options that deal with horde and other stuff. Until I see a tourney that is nothing but gaunts, footguard, and green tide, I don't consider the Griffon TAC.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Well, you're sort of missing his point. Griffons don't handle anything but hordes in the open and slowly stripping hull points off light vehicles. Lots and lots of weapons can do that. You don't need to take dedicated weapons to handle JUST those targets and nothing else.

I'd much rather have a weapon that is less efficient at handling hordes in the open if it was also actually effective against a wider group of targets than just hordes out in the open. That is, unless, the only things I was coming up against was just horde army after horde army. But I don't, so the griffon has about as much of a place in my army as a hellhound (the shelf).

 Che-Vito wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:
Third; Because Griffons are anti-horde, and there are better TAC options that deal with horde and other stuff. Until I see a tourney that is nothing but gaunts, footguard, and green tide, I don't consider the Griffon TAC.

What options can do it as effectively, point for point, as the Griffon?
- Massed Heavy Bolters/Multilasers from Chimeras
- Artillery
- Some Leman Russ variants.
- Valk with MRP
- Hellhounds

Some of those options aren't terribly competitive. I think 150 points spent on Griffons in a list of 1000 points or higher, adds both flavor and TAC anti-horde.
Chimera spam gets very boring to play as, and play against.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying the Griffon is a bad Anti-horde option.

I'm saying it does nothing else. That is not TAC. That is an option for a tailored list.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:
You're missing my point. I'm not saying the Griffon is a bad Anti-horde option.

I'm saying it does nothing else. That is not TAC. That is an option for a tailored list.

Errrr...wat? The same could be said for almost any unit. Many have a specific purpose, and outside of that, there are only things they are mediocre at or cannot do.
Personally, I'd rather load up on Basilisks for anti-horde, but I can see the TAC use of 2 Griffons at a low 150 points.

Not entirely true.

As I made clear; the Manticore isn't superior due to effectiveness at anti-horde. It is clearly beaten by a margin by a battery of Griffons.

It is superior because it is Str10, which denies FNP from most everything, instant deaths most deathstars, autopens AV10, and is overall effective at medium-armor vehicles, as well as receiving potentially an extra shot.

The whole point of TAC options is that they are not rendered useless against certain builds. Against Mechvets, Battlewagonspam, Arkspam, Plague Marines, Draigowing, Deathwing (i could go on) the Griffon is next to useless.

The only thing that really invalidates the Manticore is flyerspam.

Plenty of units do multiple things. I'm wondering what units you are referring to that do just one.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Vendettas are good against terminators, monstrous creatures, and vehicles of every kind. And last I checked, lascannons still hurt regular space marines. Add on a pair of criminally cheap heavy bolter sponsons, and they're not even bad against hordes either.

Also, both the vendetta and the chimera should be primarily judged by their ability to transport troops, not necessarily by their firepower alone.

You are right, though, that there are certainly some things in the guard codex that have niche roles. Hellhounds, hydras, autocannon HWSs, ratlings, ministorum priests, etc. You will also notice that units that have niche roles are unpopular, and for good reason.

Guard do have access to cheap stuff, and to specialists, and I will certainly agree that that used to be the way to go with guard, but times have changed. I have literally no use for a unit that can't present a serious threat to vehicles. My entire list has to be built around being able to handle fliers in one of the few reasonable strategies to handle them. Every unit in my army needs to be able to handle terminators now.

Put another way, spam, especially spam of tough units, is better now than it once was. This means that units that you have that only really handle things that aren't tough units are very likely going to be doing very little. This means that you're either specializing in stuff that handles hard targets (and not specializing in anything else) and/or making units versatile, so that they can handle both weaker infantry and hard targets simultaneously.

If you take the former route, then you expose yourself to being undone by somebody who brings a list against which you're not specialized. Go the latter route, and you're bringing versatile units, like platoon squads with lascannons and meltaguns, or like exterminators with lascannons and multimeltas.

Plainly put, a unit that can be rendered useless by a pretty big swath of spam-based armies has little to no use in a take all comer's list. The Captain gave several examples, but, as he says, it's not the complete picture. Without being able to handle spam armies, which will ultimately require versatility, any unit thus incapable is going to be sidelined.

Like the griffon.

 Che-Vito wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:
Plenty of units do multiple things. I'm wondering what units you are referring to that do just one.

Vendettas: can transport Troops, and hunt MC/vehicles. They're pretty awful in any other use, with even their transportation abilities being marginal.
Chimera: Exist to protect/transport troops, are mediocre at everything else
Hydras: good against flyers/bikes/transports. Worthless against hordes, jetbikes, and heavier armor.
Leman Russ variants: range from TAC variants like the Eradicator, to very specific uses like the Punisher, LR vanilla, Vanquisher, Executioner, Exterminator.

You listed the Vendetta, which does two things, the Chimera, which is a dedicated transport, which usually do squat for their price, and two sub-par codex choices.

I'm not sure your point is as proven as you believe.