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< Taken by the void dragon. >

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Except we were doing a side by side comparison, not a point for point. So no, not false.

Sorry, but that's a terrible argument, and you should know better. Comparing a squadronable 75 point unit to a 160 point unit and "proving" that the 160 point unit is better is just ridiculous. You have to consider point efficiency, otherwise the winner of pretty much any comparison is going to be the unit that costs more.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, you're sort of missing his point. Griffons don't handle anything but hordes in the open and slowly stripping hull points off light vehicles. Lots and lots of weapons can do that. You don't need to take dedicated weapons to handle JUST those targets and nothing else.

The point was that over and over again you see "the Manticore is horrible at killing vehicles". You've certainly dismissed it as doing little more than stripping off hull points here and there. So if you think it's such a bad vehicle killer then the obvious choice is the Griffon. It's a better anti-horde unit, and the Manticore's poor anti-vehicle capabilities do not make up for its failure in the primary role. It shouldn't get credit for being "versatile" when it isn't good at those secondary roles, it should have to do more than be theoretically capable of rolling dice to get that credit.

 Ailaros wrote:
Add on a pair of criminally cheap heavy bolter sponsons, and they're not even bad against hordes either.

Just have to address this: the HB sponsons are "criminally cheap" because they have terrible firing arcs. It's hard to fire even one of them, and you almost never get to fire both of them. I wouldn't even consider wasting 10 points on them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, you're sort of missing his point. Griffons don't handle anything but hordes in the open and slowly stripping hull points off light vehicles. Lots and lots of weapons can do that. You don't need to take dedicated weapons to handle JUST those targets and nothing else.

The point was that over and over again you see "the Manticore is horrible at killing vehicles". You've certainly dismissed it as doing little more than stripping off hull points here and there. So if you think it's such a bad vehicle killer then the obvious choice is the Griffon. It's a better anti-horde unit, and the Manticore's poor anti-vehicle capabilities do not make up for its failure in the primary role. It shouldn't get credit for being "versatile" when it isn't good at those secondary roles, it should have to do more than be theoretically capable of rolling dice to get that credit.

The Manticore is good at anti-horde. The Griffon is better.

The manticore is fantastic against AV10, the griffon is not.

The Manticore strips a hull point off a Land raider on a roll of 4+, the Griffon strips a hull point off a Land Raider on a roll of 8+ (note the impossibility)

Again, the argument was never that the Griffon is a bad anti-horde. The argument is that it does nothing else, and has no place in a TAC list that may or may not play against a horde army. It is rendered next to useless against so many things, that it's ability to excel against a niche is almost irrelevant.

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Again, the argument was never that the Griffon is a bad anti-horde. The argument is that it does nothing else, and has no place in a TAC list that may or may not play against a horde army. It is rendered next to useless against so many things, that it's ability to excel against a niche is almost irrelevant.

Right. But then outside of the Griffon vs. Manticore debate the Manticore is considered an anti-horde unit and not a proper anti-tank unit. As an anti-tank unit it gets dismissed in favor of Medusas/Vendettas/blob LC spam/etc. Its supposed "effectiveness" against vehicles only seems to come up as a reason to avoid taking a Griffon, which is just silly. If a Manticore's anti-tank effectiveness is so low then why should a minor secondary role be a factor in choosing your anti-horde unit?

 Peregrine wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Again, the argument was never that the Griffon is a bad anti-horde. The argument is that it does nothing else, and has no place in a TAC list that may or may not play against a horde army. It is rendered next to useless against so many things, that it's ability to excel against a niche is almost irrelevant.

Right. But then outside of the Griffon vs. Manticore debate the Manticore is considered an anti-horde unit and not a proper anti-tank unit. As an anti-tank unit it gets dismissed in favor of Medusas/Vendettas/blob LC spam/etc. Its supposed "effectiveness" against vehicles only seems to come up as a reason to avoid taking a Griffon, which is just silly. If a Manticore's anti-tank effectiveness is so low then why should a minor secondary role be a factor in choosing your anti-horde unit?

Because versatility.

Versatility makes a TAC list. It is why Medusae are better than BB Medusae, the Punisher Vulture is better than the 4x MRP Vulture, the Plasma gun is better than the melta gun, LasPlas Razorbacks are better than Twinlas, Sabres are better than Hydras, The Vendetta is better than the MRP Valkyrie, etc etc.

Usually, it is better to be good at many things, than to be great at one.

Versatility of targets. That is the meaning of TAC.

Edit; not to mention, no one ever disputes the effectiveness of a Manticore at breaking up parking lots. It's anti-tank effectiveness is admirable for a non-AP2/1 weapon.

Peregrine wrote:HB sponsons are "criminally cheap" because they have terrible firing arcs.

On a unit with near perfect mobility. Shooting against big, spread out targets.

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Edit; not to mention, no one ever disputes the effectiveness of a Manticore at breaking up parking lots. It's anti-tank effectiveness is admirable for a non-AP2/1 weapon.

Nobody? How about you? Your own words, just a few posts ago:

"Why not take a Bastion Breacher Medusa to open up said tin cans, and then use Manticores to pulp the squishy inside bits?

BB Medusa will kill much better than wasting manticores on vehicles. Those guys are fantastic anti-horde. Their ability to damage vehicles should be considered as naught more than icing on on the cake. "

Sounds like you don't have a very high opinion of the Manticore as an anti-tank unit and consider it little more than an infantry killer.

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:HB sponsons are "criminally cheap" because they have terrible firing arcs.

On a unit with near perfect mobility. Shooting against big, spread out targets.

Which is a pretty small range of targets. Yes, of course it will happen occasionally, but the HB sponsons are so cheap because they are a weapon that is mediocre at best. All I'm saying is don't get fooled by the cheap point cost and think they're an amazing deal when in reality they're fairly priced, or even overpriced.

 Peregrine wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
Edit; not to mention, no one ever disputes the effectiveness of a Manticore at breaking up parking lots. It's anti-tank effectiveness is admirable for a non-AP2/1 weapon.

Nobody? How about you? Your own words, just a few posts ago:

"Why not take a Bastion Breacher Medusa to open up said tin cans, and then use Manticores to pulp the squishy inside bits?

BB Medusa will kill much better than wasting manticores on vehicles. Those guys are fantastic anti-horde. Their ability to damage vehicles should be considered as naught more than icing on on the cake. "

Sounds like you don't have a very high opinion of the Manticore as an anti-tank unit and consider it little more than an infantry killer.

You're twisting my words.

I Insinuate that the primary role of a manticore is not to pop vehicles. It is merely secondary trait (a-la icing to said cake).

Not to mention, this statement says nothing to my assertation that Manticores are good against parking lots, for wealth of targets.

Manticores are decent against single vehicles, good against clusters. (Parking lots, as they say).

 CaptainGrey wrote:
It is merely secondary trait (a-la icing to said cake).

A secondary trait that you describe as "wasting" the Manticore. The point here is that if you think it's a waste of a Manticore to shoot it at a vehicle then why do you value its anti-tank ability so highly when talking about Manticore vs. Griffon?

Not to mention, this statement says nothing to my assertation that Manticores are good against parking lots, for wealth of targets.

But how relevant is that in 6th? How many people are bringing Razorback hordes where you can hit 2-3 vehicles with a single Manticore shot?

I'd argue that the primary benefit the Manticore provides over a pair of Griffons is its ability to deal with multiwound and FNP targets, not its (admittedly marginal) *antivehicular capabilities.

*Exception: Vehicles with quantum shielding, where getting a penetrating hit is valuable even if it's only AP4

So you'd be taking a Manticore for:

1) Nobs, esp. Nob Bikers
2) Slaanesh Bikers w/ Icon of Excess
3) Thunderwolf Cavalry
4) Ogryn (rare, but they do exist)
5) Grotesques
6) Chaos Spawn (even Nurgle, since wound on 2+ instead of 4+)
7) Wraiths
8) Admittedly unpopular Tyranid models (Warriors)
9) Ghost Arks & Annihilation Barges

 CaptainGrey wrote:

hellpato wrote:
What about FW thudd gun and heavy mortar? are they good or just a waste pts in an army?

They're just unimpressive compared to what else you could take in the same slots.

They're in the elite slot tho, at least for Krieg, and as far as I know, elite is the lacking slot of the IG.

 Peregrine wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:
It is merely secondary trait (a-la icing to said cake).

A secondary trait that you describe as "wasting" the Manticore. The point here is that if you think it's a waste of a Manticore to shoot it at a vehicle then why do you value its anti-tank ability so highly when talking about Manticore vs. Griffon?

Still twisting words.

Never said the Manticore is wasted shooting at vehicles. What I said was "BB Medusa will kill much better than wasting manticores on vehicles."

Alongside a BB Medusa, the Manticore should not be shooting at vehicles. Fact.

However the capability to damage them is still apparent, and quite reliable. Is this not true?

The Griffon's ability wanes when handling anything other than Hordes. Is this not also true?

The Griffon is largely useless compared to other options when dealing with armies lacking a Horde element, is this not true?

A TAC list wants to include units that will be useful regardless of opposing army composition. This is true, is it not?

Facing these four truths, I hope it is evident why the Griffon should be eschewed for better options unless you are guaranteed to be facing a Horde army.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They're in the elite slot tho, at least for Krieg, and as far as I know, elite is the lacking slot of the IG.

IG have an Elite slot? Are you sure?

1-2 HQ,
0-1 Marbo
2-6 Troops
0-3 Fast Attack
0-3 Heavy Support

...I don't see it.

 Peregrine wrote:


But how relevant is that in 6th? How many people are bringing Razorback hordes where you can hit 2-3 vehicles with a single Manticore shot?

That's pretty meta-specific.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

hellpato wrote:
What about FW thudd gun and heavy mortar? are they good or just a waste pts in an army?

They're just unimpressive compared to what else you could take in the same slots.

They're in the elite slot tho, at least for Krieg, and as far as I know, elite is the lacking slot of the IG.

I don't believe they are elite for C:IG, though I could be wrong.