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Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Ok going to a GT tournament soon with an army that will be vunerable to baleflamers. I was looking at the template weapons rules and want Dakota's opinion on what levels a flying turkey can target with its death spit. Ok RAW is you can only target a level or a ruin at the same level or 1 level above or below. Flyer rules are silent on wha level the Turkey counts as being on. Thus I think there are 3 ways to play it:

1) the flying turkey is on ground level so can only target ground level and level 2 and cannot target level 3.

2) the flying Turkey counts as being at level 3 (or highest level) and can target highest level and one level down.

3) the flying turkey can target any level.

I think 1 is most RAW, 2 is second closest to RAW and makes some logical sense. 3 is probably close to RAI.

What does Dakka think? How would you argue it should be played at a GT level tournament?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/07 18:50:20


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Well, if hovering or swooping then they can target any level.

Also you need to redo your post, man. I have no idea what "Turkey" and "Trudie" are referring to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/07 18:40:59


 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Kevin949 wrote:
Well, if hovering or swooping then they can target any level.

Citation needed.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

rigeld2 wrote:
 Kevin949 wrote:
Well, if hovering or swooping then they can target any level.

Citation needed.

Page 101

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
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Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






 liturgies of blood wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Kevin949 wrote:
Well, if hovering or swooping then they can target any level.

Citation needed.

Page 101


Indeed. In addition, the flyer and FMC rules to add, since they act as skimmers or jump MC when Hovering or Swooping (respectively).

So, Pages 49 and 80.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be a jerk and disagree (just FYI) but since the question was asked, any answers should include citations... especially since the way he asked it looks like he'd already investigated.

I'm away from my books or I'd have looked it up myself.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






rigeld2 wrote:
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be a jerk and disagree (just FYI) but since the question was asked, any answers should include citations... especially since the way he asked it looks like he'd already investigated.

I'm away from my books or I'd have looked it up myself.


You're right, I should have cited. And I know you weren't being those things, I just wanted to round out the citations for my claim(s).

However, I really can't find how you would determine flamers from a zoomer/glider. I haven't checked the FAQ's though, so maybe there's something there.
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

I'm not sure it matters a damn what is shooting a flamer or what mode the model shooting it is in. It hits whatever lvl it targets.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 liturgies of blood wrote:
I'm not sure it matters a damn what is shooting a flamer or what mode the model shooting it is in. It hits whatever lvl it targets.

It does matter because you explicitly can only target one level above or below where you're standing. If you're an infantry model standing on the ground you cannot target a level 2 floors up.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

I meant of FMC or flyer. You are right of course about infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/07 19:04:49


It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Kevin949 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be a jerk and disagree (just FYI) but since the question was asked, any answers should include citations... especially since the way he asked it looks like he'd already investigated.

I'm away from my books or I'd have looked it up myself.


You're right, I should have cited. And I know you weren't being those things, I just wanted to round out the citations for my claim(s).

However, I really can't find how you would determine flamers from a zoomer/glider. I haven't checked the FAQ's though, so maybe there's something there.

So lemme sum up.

Gliding FMC - Page 100 allows you to target any level
Swooping FMC - page 49 says that they move like a Jump Monstrous Creature which at least implies that they are not limited to targeting a specific level
Hovering Flyer - Page 100 allows you to target any level
Zooming Flyer - page 80 says that they move like a Skimmer which at least implies that they are not limited to targeting a specific level

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Normal template firing: place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon.

Template into ruin firing, normal infantry: Place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon, then optionally move it up or down one level.

Template into ruin firing, jump infantry, etc.: Place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon, then optionally move it up or down any number of levels.

Torrent: place end of template within 12" of firing model

How torrent interacts with the rules for firing templates into ruins is not entirely clear, but HIWP is definitely that the torrent rule flat-out overrides the template-ruin rule. The template-into-ruins rules are extra capabilities not normally possessed by template weapons, so reading them as restrictions overriding another extra ability leads to strange and counter-intuitive results.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/07 19:14:11


 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





I'm ignoring Torrent for now - I agree that it should be able to place the template on any specific level.

Just sorting out non-torrent usage.

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Made in au
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Making Stuff






Under the couch

Pyrian wrote:
Normal template firing: place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon.

Template into ruin firing, normal infantry: Place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon, then optionally move it up or down one level.

Template into ruin firing, jump infantry, etc.: Place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon, then optionally move it up or down any number of levels.

This is incorrect. Templates are placed in contact with the model's base, not the barrel of the weapon. You only use the barrel of the weapon when it is mounted on a vehicle.

 
   
Made in us
Furious Raptor




Fort Worth, TX

 insaniak wrote:
Pyrian wrote:
Normal template firing: place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon.

Template into ruin firing, normal infantry: Place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon, then optionally move it up or down one level.

Template into ruin firing, jump infantry, etc.: Place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon, then optionally move it up or down any number of levels.

This is incorrect. Templates are placed in contact with the model's base, not the barrel of the weapon. You only use the barrel of the weapon when it is mounted on a vehicle.


Interestingly enough, the book only states to use the barrel of the weapon for determining line of sight, but there are no set rules for measuring from the barrel of the weapon. It's the general accepted method, and it's what I've always done. This was point out by one of the hosts of our podcast mid-episode. Another host said he'd find it, starting reading the LOS part, and stopped mid-sentence. HIWPI is that you measure from the barrel, but there's no rule that specifically says to.

As for the topic at hand, I'd play it that the flyer could hit any level. If GW gave the heldrake a 360 firing arc, it's not like they are going to impose a limit on it. To quote the 11th Company, "Heldrake does what Heldrake wants".

I out with in both 40k and WHFB.
Co-host of the HittingOn3s Podcast
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

 kcwm wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
Pyrian wrote:
Normal template firing: place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon.

Template into ruin firing, normal infantry: Place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon, then optionally move it up or down one level.

Template into ruin firing, jump infantry, etc.: Place end of template in contact with barrel of weapon, then optionally move it up or down any number of levels.

This is incorrect. Templates are placed in contact with the model's base, not the barrel of the weapon. You only use the barrel of the weapon when it is mounted on a vehicle.


Interestingly enough, the book only states to use the barrel of the weapon for determining line of sight, but there are no set rules for measuring from the barrel of the weapon. It's the general accepted method, and it's what I've always done. This was point out by one of the hosts of our podcast mid-episode. Another host said he'd find it, starting reading the LOS part, and stopped mid-sentence. HIWPI is that you measure from the barrel, but there's no rule that specifically says to.

As for the topic at hand, I'd play it that the flyer could hit any level. If GW gave the heldrake a 360 firing arc, it's not like they are going to impose a limit on it. To quote the 11th Company, "Heldrake does what Heldrake wants".


The barrel is used for LoS. The muzzle is used for range (page 71, Vehicles & Measuring Distances).

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 kcwm wrote:

Interestingly enough, the book only states to use the barrel of the weapon for determining line of sight, but there are no set rules for measuring from the barrel of the weapon.

That is not quite correct. Muzzle = End of the barrel.

Page 71 - Vehicles and Measuring Distances, second paragraph.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/09 00:19:56


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Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 kcwm wrote:
Interestingly enough, the book only states to use the barrel of the weapon for determining line of sight, but there are no set rules for measuring from the barrel of the weapon.

Page 71 - Vehicles and Measuring Distances, second paragraph.

 
   
Made in au
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





Perth

helldrake was FAQ'd to measure from the base was it not?

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Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver



Oklahoma

yes firing the baleflamer is measured from anywhere on the edge of the base as a turret weapon
   
Made in us
Furious Raptor




Fort Worth, TX

Well, eff me. How we overlooked that and had a discussion over it is beyond me. I believe the person arguing for measuring from the hull pointed out the section on page 72 instead of looking at the bold print on page 71.

It's funny how often I'm wrong about rules where I let someone else tell me, confidently at times, that it's one way instead of simply looking at it myself.

Thanks for straightening me out, fellas.

I out with in both 40k and WHFB.
Co-host of the HittingOn3s Podcast
 
   
 
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