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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 20:38:12
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Lurking Gaunt
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Tyranids. A very strong and unique army in 4th edition, but given a sick joke of a "codex" halfway through 5th. In 5th, they were truly terrible: the lack of cover for monstrous creatures combined with their inflated points costs, the lack of EW on the T4 medium bugs, and the lack of grenades on the little bugs, as well as lack of ranged anti-vehicle in the 40k: Mech Edition, caused a lot of pain.
I started playing Tyranids in the last half year of 5th. 6th took away the charge after outflank from genestealers, and made melee hordes basically just overwatch bait. But it buffed Fearless, Deep Strike and Monstrous Creatures.
So what is the place of Tyranids in the current metagame, now that 6th has been out for over half a year? How can Tyranids be carried to victory?
Tyranids currently have godly Monstrous Creatures(Dakka Flyrants and Dakkafexes), horde support(Tervigon + Termagants), as well as a lot of useful Elites and cool Fast Attack. 2 Flyrants and a Tervigons with a brood of gaunts unlocking it is the core of most Tyranid armies in this edition.
Tyranids seem to be effective at killing Space Marines right now: Monstrous Creatures ignoring power armor, Devourers wounding on 2's and cracking rhinos, Zoanthropes cracking land raiders or reducing toughness.
Tyranids will always have a challenging matchup against Grey Knights because of mass Force Weapon, Eldar because of Runes of Warding, and Dark Eldar because of massed poison shooting. However, Guard is the top of the metagame right now: they are also strong against Tyranids, but not in a broken sort of way. Tyranids can still be catered to beat them, and Flyrants with Iron Arm and FNP will beat Vendettas with a bit of luck.
So what will the optimal build become? Tyranids are starting to do well in tournaments, what is it that they are countering besides generic marine lists? What kinds of lists that are popular in the meta are still problematic for them? Why are Tyranids running strong, when they can be easily wrecked by vendetta spam, assault cannon razorback/long fang spam, purifier spam, venom/raider spam, and countless others? I've been reading up on Tyranids winning lately, and although I haven't played much competitively this year, I'm wondering what is hosing out last year's early 6th lists that Tyranids are so strong against.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 21:01:18
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet
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You forget psychic powers, psychic choir Nids can be absolutely brutal.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 21:24:36
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Psychic powers are nids best boost in 6th IMO. Nids had a few decent codex powers but with biomancy now available MC can become very strong to the point unstoppable vs some armies. The optimal build includes a pair of flyrants and 2 tervigons. Elite choices usually vary but you see lots of hive guard still. The DoM is also a force. His leech spirit can cripple units. Now that he can move 6" from his pod he is that much more effective. He can also use psychic shriek for additional wound generation. Sure he can be instagibbed but there have been a few games I rolled iron arm for fun and made him uber tough. Zoanthropes are still great but you have to roll lots of dice to get their codex powers off. Test, roll to hit, roll to pen, deny the witch, cover saves, damage chart. Lots can go wrong. That being said give them biomancy and they buff your army big time potentially. Stealers are pretty much dead right now and any optimal list has termigaunts to unlock tervigons as troops. Tervigons should go 3 psychic powers for additional toughness and buffing. Gargoyles are cheap and very effective killing machines. With TS and AG you have a serious threat. Heavies. Some like dakkafex but I am more inclined to go with trygons. Primes are a nice bonus if you have the points and TS make him reroll wounds. A very effective killing machine that can be buffed with endurance.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/07 21:24:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 21:40:52
Subject: Re:The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Sinewy Scourge
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One of the best armies in the game. Perhaps the best stand alone force (though Nids have no allies choices, so they have to be).
People who say otherwise haven't run into a good Nid player in 6th. The army is completely brutal. It is very, very hard to beat Nids if they get the right psy power rolls and you don't have psychic defense.
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2nd Place 2015 ATC--Team 48
6th Place 2014 ATC--team Ziggy Wardust and the Hammers from Mars
3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 21:45:42
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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So if you're not Eldar, another nids or Space Wolves? Because the psychic hood is a joke now. Or can GK do something too?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 21:52:18
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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for me the bread and butter in the nids codex is unfortunetly tervigons, hormogaunts and gargoyles. Good think I like all 3 models fluff vice and the actual model. 6th edition was a BIG boost. Landraiders disapear with smash attacks, thank you god.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 21:56:15
Subject: Re:The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Sinewy Scourge
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So if you're not Eldar, another nids or Space Wolves? Because the psychic hood is a joke now. Or can GK do something too?
Pretty much. It is a crazy match-up when you can't stop the multiple Iron Arms along with buffs and de-buff that they put out.
for me the bread and butter in the nids codex is unfortunetly tervigons, hormogaunts and gargoyles. Good think I like all 3 models fluff vice and the actual model. 6th edition was a BIG boost. Landraiders disapear with smash attacks, thank you god.
I'm assuming you mean Termagants and not Hormagants? I don't really think that there are any "must takes" besides 2-3 Tervigons and Termagant units. Flyrants, Swarmlord, Doom, Hive Guard, Zoeys, Gargoyles, Biovores, Trygons, Carnifexes, and Mawlocks are all useful as well.
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2nd Place 2015 ATC--Team 48
6th Place 2014 ATC--team Ziggy Wardust and the Hammers from Mars
3rd Place 2013 ATC--team Quality Control
7-1 at 2013 Nova Open (winner of bracket 4)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/07 21:59:26
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
DC Metro
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I must admit, I was amazed not to be seeing a lot more trygons. I guess it's because mawlocs are so cheap.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 00:26:48
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Larmsword wrote:
I started playing Tyranids in the last half year of 5th. 6th took away the charge after outflank from genestealers, and made melee hordes basically just overwatch bait. But it buffed Fearless, Deep Strike and Monstrous Creatures.
LOL who loses models to overwatch? More like overratedwatch if you ask me
That last part of your quote is basically your answer.
Big Bugs are both the hammer and the anvil of Nids in 6th.
Hammerwise you have Tyrants, Trygons, Mawlocs and to a lesser extent fexes.
Anvilwise you have Tervigons.
Tyrants and the swarmlord are awesome HQ's that can dish out the pain whichever way you prefer, and can go slogging or flying.
Trygons and Mawlocs add much needed disruption. New changes to reserves means that Hive Commander and Swarmy will be giving you a 2+ roll to bring them in.
Tervigons give you scoring, scoring, scoring, and oh yeah scoring. for 250-ish points (incl cost of 10 gants to make him a troop) you get a combat beast that can score and will poop out an average 10 gants a turn. Even if he poops out in T1 that's 3 scoring units on the board, better still if you can keep them going you'll end up with an average of 50 more gants, on the table. I had awesome luck rolling biomancy on him the first time and terrible luck afterwards, so I just leave them with the FNP power since you get it automatically and it's the one you NEED to get.
So it's Tyrant, Trygon/Mawloc and Tervis FTW in general, in my experience. YMMV
2 of each is a stout 1500 point army, for 1850 you have a buttload of options.
I'm going to try running a couple of Zoanthrope broods since their blast is now even more ridiculous with the buff to AP1, also running them with random biomancy can make a killer support unit, getting multiple Endurance rolls, or multiple Enfeebles on the enemy (think of casting it twice on a unit of marines then hitting them with Hemorrhage). Units of 2 benefit from Ironarm so you can make them average toughness 5-7, and the one casting gets EW so even S10 can't insta-gib him, then they can serve as moving cover for your MC's.
Stealers I haven't tried, they weren't great and just took the nerfbat this editon, it's a shame since I have a ton of them from 2nd ed and old and new space hulk (so like 80?)
I also like the look of the Doom of Malantai (gambler's choice) taking the Psychic Shriek from Telepathy, seems like good synergy with his leech power, and doesn't cost him wounds, maybe biomancy, but the 1/6 odds of getting Iron Arm makes that option kind of a gamble on top of a gamble.
Automatically Appended Next Post: DaddyWarcrimes wrote:I must admit, I was amazed not to be seeing a lot more trygons. I guess it's because mawlocs are so cheap.
I've been running dual Trygons, but am thinking of going Trygon+Mawloc. My tactic is to bring the Trygon in first and position him near an enemy unit like a juicy vehicle, then use the Mawloc to pop up and "pinch" it between his blast and the Trygon/whatever other things it's near. Since it can be moved it's just destroyed.
This is assuming I roll 2+ on both (totally didn't happen last game
Question, if you use a Mawloc to pinch an enemy transport does the unit inside get removed as well? In the Codex it just says the unit that can't be moved is "destroyed", nothing I could find in the FAQ.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/08 00:33:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 00:53:16
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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The Hive Mind
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It's be almost impossible to pinch a vehicle between two models. There'd have to be something in from and behind as well.
I honestly think the Mawloc gets as praise as it does because people misinterpret the TFtD rule.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 02:47:30
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Mawloc is nice because of 3 reasons.
1. It's cheap
2. It can snipe models on the deep strike
3. Hit and run.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 03:45:42
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Raging Ravener
Virginia
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Any thoughts on Warriors? The meta seems like it's shifting away from melta and missiles in favor of plasma and not-long-fangs, so instant death isn't quite as much of a given.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 13:32:30
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Been Around the Block
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I actually love warriors. Not only are they one of our best looking models imo, they have been highly effective for me against orks, which a play often. I use 2 squads of warriors with a b arbed strangler, in sub 1000 games a prime will be attached. I saturaye the board with good targets too to keep them alive. 4 biovores, 2 mawlocs, these units all rreally treat me well against ork and ig blobs. The warriors tend to be a bit more vulnerable to ig but I just let the prime take the missles and LoS everything else to the warriors. I hate HAVING to use tervigons so I enjoy using other troop choices.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 14:02:10
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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During 5th edition I played so very much tyranids...it was hell. And it unfortunately shaped my sight on the coolness on the models. (Warriors for me is a big pit if despair.)
Tyranids are very good at the moment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 14:26:45
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Tyranids are the wrench that gets thrown in a lot of the incredibly strong tourney lists. Aircav? fine, S8 IA Tyrants and 6W on my big bugs pretty much ignore that. Gunlines with lots of high-S low ROF? We got lots of wounds and cover saves now to boot.
However, if nids pairs up vs Eldar or SW or allies of either, it gets shut down hard. The only thing that really benefited nids is the new BRB psychic powers. Shut those off and nids revert to the bottom teir list they were in 5th. Some small buffs like fearless help, but outflank, overwatch, and challenges hurt nids more than most armies as they dont have a solution to them. FMCs are largely a gimmick for nids as the lack of inv and the gamble of smashing into the ground in front of the enemy army gunline is rarely worth risking an already overcosted tyrant.
I maintain that nids are a pretty poor army if you are strong on target priority. Playing nids for years in tourneys tought me all the weaknesses of the nid codex. Playing them with eldar, corsairs, or guard i have a perfect win ratio.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/08 14:28:47
"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know."
-Inquisitor Czevak
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 15:07:49
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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The Hive Mind
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Fighting Eldar or SW isn't that bad... I fought an Eldar list to (essentially) a draw at the last tournament and got max points against a SW list.
The fact that Eldar can't score inside their transports is a significant bump against them.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 16:55:46
Subject: Re:The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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I run 2 Flyrants in all my lists and 90% of my games played are against my friend who runs IG with 3 Vendettas, EVERY GAME. Some games I focus them down, but most of the time.. I completely ignore them. Yes, they almost kill an entire MC a turn if he gets lucky and I don't with FNP and what not. However I run 7 MCs, 10 including pods. Killing 1 per turn is fine. I continuously focus down troop after troop until I win purely with spawned gants and his lack of objective control. Bring the Swarmlord if it's your playstyle IMHO.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 16:58:52
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Lurking Gaunt
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Niiai wrote:During 5th edition I played so very much tyranids...it was hell. And it unfortunately shaped my sight on the coolness on the models. (Warriors for me is a big pit if despair.)
Tyranids are very good at the moment.
Yeah. I think that's the thing, the Tyranid codex seemed meant to lose in 5th. It's still a wreck, with very little internal balance, but the core rules of 6th edition gave it some ridiculous buffs. I've been finding it to be a very strong alpha strike army, with FMC and Deep Striking MC spam, backed up by Biomancy.
Also, More Dakka, overwatch is indeed overrated. Except in guard blobs with a commissar and a billion flamers. But if a unit is going to fail to charge because of overwatch, it's going to be Troops Genestealers, because of their meager save and their relatively high point cost for a swarm unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 16:59:59
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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That you faced mech eldar says enough. Mech eldar broke its legs with 5th. It crawled through 5th before finally being put down in 6th.
SW still have the best weapon in the game vs nids, JOTWW. As long as one priest has that, you will nearly never win. Ability to simply obliterate one tervigon a turn plus shutting down nids powers, plus the cost effectiveness of Lone Wolves, Longfangs, and Grey Hunters means a good SW player will rarely have challenges vs nids. Gunline SW is still a tough nut to crack even after all these codexes since then. However, no matter the strength of an army, if the guy using it doesnt target prioritize correctly, he will lose.
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"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know."
-Inquisitor Czevak
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 17:31:36
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Fixture of Dakka
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zephoid wrote:
SW still have the best weapon in the game vs nids, JOTWW. As long as one priest has that, you will nearly never win
You can have a Flyrant on the Rune Priest Turn 2. Then he'll just be a dead Rune Priest.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 18:18:53
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
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Running a flyrant up the map for a turn 2 assault is one of the quickest ways to see him grounded and dead. Bolters will have few good targets turn 1 so why not throw ALL of them at the tyrant, and SW love their bolter spam. Once on the grount, a longfang volly cleans up nicely. Predictable tactics like this are exactly what i mean when i say knowing target priority makes nids easy to beat. They put all the cards on the table and say "Deal with it". Knowing the order of what to kill at what time and what to focus on killing turns playing vs nids into a game of whack-a-mole.
Also, what stops 2+ rune priests. In 6th that is actually very viable for psychic power spam to buff a variety of squads. JOTWW may be on more than 1 priest.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/08 18:20:11
"Ask not the Eldar a question, for they will give you three answers, all of which are true and terrifying to know."
-Inquisitor Czevak
~14k
~10k
~5k corsairs
~3k DKOK |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 19:16:32
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Lurking Gaunt
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zephoid wrote:Running a flyrant up the map for a turn 2 assault is one of the quickest ways to see him grounded and dead. Bolters will have few good targets turn 1 so why not throw ALL of them at the tyrant, and SW love their bolter spam. Once on the grount, a longfang volly cleans up nicely. Predictable tactics like this are exactly what i mean when i say knowing target priority makes nids easy to beat. They put all the cards on the table and say "Deal with it". Knowing the order of what to kill at what time and what to focus on killing turns playing vs nids into a game of whack-a-mole.
Also, what stops 2+ rune priests. In 6th that is actually very viable for psychic power spam to buff a variety of squads. JOTWW may be on more than 1 priest.
Jaws only has 24" range. If they want to snipe your Tervigons with it, they have to bring their Rune Priests to you.
But yeah, charging up your Hive Tyrants without thinking will get them killed. You have to use strategy. Swoop the full 24", but go to the side, cover to cover, and use the Flyrant's mobility to flank the enemy rather than charging head on. And support the Hive Tyrants. Give them so many targets up in their face that they won't be able to prioritize properly, is what I mean. Don't just take a pair of Flyrants in a 2000 points game and expect them to carry you through. Back them up with Harpies. Replace your Hive Guard with Ymgarl Genestealers or the Doom or Zoanthropes in a pod. Provide extra mega-threats by deep striking Trygons and Dakkafexes. Hive Commander gives you everything on turn 2. Confuse your opponent through sheer volume of Monstrous Creatures, and then leap on whatever mistake he makes.
Tyranids don't have to try to table their opponent to win. If a Tyranid player gets greedy, he loses. All you have to do is hold your side of the board with Tervigons, and use the rest of your army for board control. Alpha strike them into your opponent's flank, push them off an objective or two, and then branch out your forces to eliminate all his remaining major threats. Tie up his heavy weapons squads with Ymgarls. Contest objectives with Mawlocs. Whenever he moves his models to get a better shot at yours, accept whatever casualties you take, then move to exploit whatever gaps are in his new position. And if he doesn't have weaknesses in his position, just pick off the stragglers, force him to turtle, and you'll have more objectives than him at the end of the game.
That's how I see Tyranids, at least. A finesse-based army that plays for the long haul.
I think there's a lot that you and others have mentioned going well for Tyranids in this meta.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 21:02:47
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Norn Queen
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^^ good post Larm.
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Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
"Feelin' goods, good enough". |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 21:18:31
Subject: Re:The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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Larm's post single handly makes me want to take out 2 Zoanthropes and add a brood of Ygmarl Genestealers... haha. Good work.
I have 3 Dakkafexes and a Doom already deepstriking in on pods. If I add a brood of Stealers and the Flyrants backing them up, I pray the enemy knows how to focus fire top priorities. Good work!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 21:42:29
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Norn Queen
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Can you run the 3 dakkas/Doom and pods in 1500 SS?
Interesting idea.
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Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
"Feelin' goods, good enough". |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/02/08 22:04:00
Subject: The Place of Tyranids in the Meta
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Lurking Gaunt
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Ratius wrote:Can you run the 3 dakkas/Doom and pods in 1500 SS?
Interesting idea.
In a 1500 point list, is that what you're asking? I don't see why not.
Example 1:
HQ
Dakka Flyrant(Warlord) w/ Hive Commander 285
Troops
Tervigon 160
Tervigon 160
10x Termagants 50
10x Termagants 50
Elites
Doom in a Pod 130
Heavy Support
Dakkafex in a Pod 230
Dakkafex in a Pod 230
Dakkafex in a Pod 230
Total: 1500
This would probably prove to be a very strong in many matchups.
Example 2:
You could also do this, but it would be an all-in:
HQ
Dakka Flyrant(Warlord) 260
Dakka Flyrant w/ Hive Commander 285
(I always put the upgrades on the one that isn't the Warlord, so they don't have an obvious target to prioritize)
Troops
3x Warriors w/ Deathspitters 105
(outflank these guys, using Hive Commander, onto an objective, so they don't get shot to death the first turn)
3x Ripper Swarms 30
(these are simply here to fill a mandantory Troop slot for minimum points)
Elites
Doom in a Pod 130
Heavy Support
Dakkafex in a Pod 230
Dakkafex in a Pod 230
Dakkafex in a Pod 230
Total: 1500
I wouldn't play this one competitively, although it might be kinda fun to try out. Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: I want to double clarify to anyone Tyranid players looking for list builds in this thread, that the second list is a "either this works wonderfully, or it fails spectacularly" kind of list. Being able to pump out 60 S6 TL shots a turn in 1500 is nice, but it doesn't have anything else at all going for it. Automatically Appended Next Post: And your only scoring unit will probably die to a lucky round of shooting from one pack of Long Fangs.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/08 22:11:24
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