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So you have yourself a nice Aegis Defence line with a nice Quad Gun. An Ork Battlewagon comes rolling over the hills with a great big old Deff Rolla. It successfully hits the Quad Gun. What happens?

Quad Guns have no leadership so automatically pass check?

If so does it move out of the way? Aren't Fortifications immobile?

Under the rules if a model cannot move out of the way it is auto crushed. Is this exactly what would happen? Just want to make sure I'm right with this.

Also can a Quad Gun Death or Glory?

The Quad Gun can not move, so would be crushed.

It wouldn't be able to DoG itself, but I see no reason that a model in base contact with it couldn't do so.

Nothing happens, you can't tank shock terrain.

you only tank shock enemy units and the quad gun isn't even considered a enemy unit.

so you can park your wagon on top of the gun and fire it with your BS 2

Yeah a quad gun is not a unit (does not have a unit type) and only units get affected by a Deff Rolla.

 yakface wrote:

Yeah a quad gun is not a unit (does not have a unit type) and only units get affected by a Deff Rolla.

But the gun has wounds... doesn't it?

My head is starting to hurt...lol.

Is it an enemy? no. Therefore where do you have permission to tank shock or ram it. Nowhere. Therefore it is ignored.

 zephoid wrote:
Is it an enemy? no. Therefore where do you have permission to tank shock or ram it. Nowhere. Therefore it is ignored.

Gotcha .

By then, it's a moot point since the orks already gotten out and some krumptin!

 zephoid wrote:
Is it an enemy? no.

Which means you cannot shoot at it or assault it, both of which is not true.

 whembly wrote:

 yakface wrote:

Yeah a quad gun is not a unit (does not have a unit type) and only units get affected by a Deff Rolla.

But the gun has wounds... doesn't it?

My head is starting to hurt...lol.

Check out its rules...the specifically say you are allowed to shoot and assault it, so those are the only two ways you're given permission to damage it.

It is not a unit, so cannot be attacked or damaged except when specified.

 yakface wrote:
Check out its rules...the specifically say you are allowed to shoot and assault it, so those are the only two ways you're given permission to damage it.

That's a fair point.

For my money, though, I would still allow a tank shock provided a unit is in residence.

 yakface wrote:

Yeah a quad gun is not a unit (does not have a unit type) and only units get affected by a Deff Rolla.

Its a model, so yes it is a unit.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 yakface wrote:

Yeah a quad gun is not a unit (does not have a unit type) and only units get affected by a Deff Rolla.

Its a model, so yes it is a unit.

No, all models have a unit type, which describes what type of model they are and how they interact with the game. A Gun Emplacement does not have a unit type and is therefore not a unit.

It has a profile, but only for resolving shooting and close combat attacks against it as described in its rules.

Otherwise, if a Gun Emplacement is a model, can I move it in the movement phase? If not, why? If so, how far (as it doesn't have a listed unit type)?

Those are all rhetorical questions because the answer is: Gun Emplacements do not have a unit type and are not models. They have a profile only so that they can be shot at and attacked in combat.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Yeah - movement is a red herring. Page 10 allows you to move "your units" and iirc Fortifications don't belong to either player, they're just purchased from your points.

 Che-Vito wrote:


They're models that are forbidden from moving. Remember, this is a permissive ruleset. You are not given permission to move with them, nor shoot unless a model is manning them. They have their whole own set of rules, and that includes a statline.

They're models, and they're unable to move out of the way of a Death or Glory attack.

No, all models are given permission to move by the core rules for movement. That's why the rules have to specifically say when a model isn't allowed to move (such as immobile vehicles).

So if Gun Emplacements are models you purchase for your army, then why can you not move them in the movement phase? And again, more importantly: what unit type are they?

Their unit type is gun emplacement. The rules of which are found in the terrain section. You really should look up the definition of model in the first couple pages of the rules. A definition that Gun Emplacements fit just fine.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - movement is a red herring. Page 10 allows you to move "your units" and iirc Fortifications don't belong to either player, they're just purchased from your points.

The argument being posited is that because Gun Emplacements have a profile, they are therefore automatically a model and because they're a model that by default makes them a unit (of one).

Because only units can be Tank Shocked, if we can agree that Gun Emplacements are not a unit, then we can agree they can't be Tank Shocked.

You can't have it both ways. They can't *not* be a unit and somehow *can* be tank shocked without specific permission to do so.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Their unit type is gun emplacement. The rules of which are found in the terrain section.

Gun Emplacement is not a unit type.

Unit types, per the rulebook, are: Infantry, Bikes, Jetbikes, Artillery, Jump, Jet Pack, Monstrous Creatures, Beasts, Cavalry, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles.

So again: What unit type is a Gun Emplacement? And by what basis are you coming to that conclusion?

 yakface wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yeah - movement is a red herring. Page 10 allows you to move "your units" and iirc Fortifications don't belong to either player, they're just purchased from your points.

The argument being posited is that because Gun Emplacements have a profile, they are therefore automatically a model and because they're a model that by default makes them a unit (of one).

Because only units can be Tank Shocked, if we can agree that Gun Emplacements are not a unit, then we can agree they can't be Tank Shocked.

You can't have it both ways. They can't *not* be a unit and somehow *can* be tank shocked without specific permission to do so.

I'm not really disagreeing with your conclusion, I'm just saying you shouldn't use the movement rules as your argument. Assuming they are a unit, that does not make them your unit - which is what the movement rules require. Like I said, Fortifications are neutral.

And guys remember, this isn't crazy out of left field different from the way the rest of the game is played.

Occupied buildings, for example, can be shot at and assaulted, yet they cannot be rammed (the rules even go out of their way to mention that, even though technically speaking they didn't need to).

So yes, buildings are similar to vehicles and can be attacked in combat and shot at in some cases, but it doesn't mean they're affected like a (vehicle) unit in any other case.

A Gun Emplacement can be attacked in combat and shot at like a model, but it is not a model in any other scenario (as it has no unit type) and is not affected as such.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Their unit type is gun emplacement. The rules of which are found in the terrain section. You really should look up the definition of model in the first couple pages of the rules. A definition that Gun Emplacements fit just fine.

They demonstrably are not a unit as they have no unit type.
The rule you're referring to says that all models have characteristic profiles, but does not say that only models have characteristic profiles.

It has wounds for the purpose of destroying it via shooting, when it comes to classification its a terrain piece not a unit.
The same goes for a Bastion or other structures - theyre destroyable even if youre playing indestructible terrain because someone bought it and is camping in it/using its benefits. However, per Ram or Tankshock rules, you would simply stop rather than do anything. The quad gun you would technically be parked over because its not impassible terrain, the other buildings you would stop cuz impossible terrain stops any rams or tankshocks.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Their unit type is gun emplacement. The rules of which are found in the terrain section. You really should look up the definition of model in the first couple pages of the rules. A definition that Gun Emplacements fit just fine.

They demonstrably are not a unit as they have no unit type.
The rule you're referring to says that all models have characteristic profiles, but does not say that only models have characteristic profiles.

"It doesn't say only models have a characteristic profile..." doesn't work in a permissive rules set.

rigeld2 wrote:

You can't have it both ways. They can't *not* be a unit and somehow *can* be tank shocked without specific permission to do so.

I'm not really disagreeing with your conclusion, I'm just saying you shouldn't use the movement rules as your argument. Assuming they are a unit, that does not make them your unit - which is what the movement rules require. Like I said, Fortifications are neutral.

 Grey Templar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Their unit type is gun emplacement. The rules of which are found in the terrain section. You really should look up the definition of model in the first couple pages of the rules. A definition that Gun Emplacements fit just fine.

They demonstrably are not a unit as they have no unit type.
The rule you're referring to says that all models have characteristic profiles, but does not say that only models have characteristic profiles.

"It doesn't say only models have a characteristic profile..." doesn't work in a permissive rules set.

Sure it does.
All models have characteristic profiles.
This thing over here has a characteristic profile.
Where is the rule calling that thing over there a model?

Can you name something that has a profile that is not a model besides the Gun Emplacement to set a precident?

look up the definition of model, the gun emplacement fits the definition.

 yakface wrote:


Well, I'm just using the example to point out the absurdity that ensues if you try to conclude that a Gun Emplacement is a model.

But you do make a good point: The rules on page 109 clearly indicate that Fortifications are not units. And the rules for models on page 3 indicates that they MUST be formed into units.

So if a Gun Emplacement is a model then it must form a unit, and Fortifications (which include Gun Emplacements) are clearly not units. Therefore Gun Emplacements cannot be a model or a unit.

Agreed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Can you name something that has a profile that is not a model besides the Gun Emplacement to set a precident?

look up the definition of model, the gun emplacement fits the definition.

Precedent*
No - I don't need to. And it doesn't for the definition.
A model has a characteristic profile. There is nothing anywhere that says everything that has a characteristic profile is a model.
A shooting attack has a range.
Does that mean everything that has a range is a shooting attack? After all, it fits the definition.

Also - we know that - and 0 in a characteristic are equivalent, right?

If at any point, a model's Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.

What is the Strength of a quad gun? Oh... 0.
So it's removed as soon as its placed if its a model because there's no exception listed.

Not having a a value is not the same as having a value of 0.

Vehicles don't have a Strength, Toughness, or wound value. Walkers being an exception.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Can you name something that has a profile that is not a model besides the Gun Emplacement to set a precident?

look up the definition of model, the gun emplacement fits the definition.

NO IT DOES NOT fit the definition of a model.

Page 3: "In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Cavalry, which we discuss in more depth on page 44."

Gun Emplacements do not have a unit type and you keep avoiding that issue. 'Gun Emplacement' is not a unit type. So again: if a Gun Emplacement is a model, what is its unit type?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not having a a value is not the same as having a value of 0.

Vehicles don't have a Strength, Toughness, or wound value. Walkers being an exception.

Page 105. What is the listed value under S?
Please answer this question.

< Taken by the void dragon. >