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For me, the cardinal sin seems to be that they just don't get the medium of crowdsourcing. Hopefully I'm proven wrong - I'd like to see them succeed despite not being in their demographic - but they are asking way too much for way too little, with few steps along the way. They have some nice perks for the individual pledge levels, but something like a tech for each pledger at 200,000 would be virtually free for them and a nice milestone during the pledge drive.

I fear as Killionaire mentions that they simply are in other their heads.

To my limited understanding, the Stompy Bot/MekTek team does have some 'known entities' in video game development on the team. They might not be the John Romero 'rockstar' type-developers, but on the other hand they're not John Romero 'rockstar' type developers. I haven't met them beyond (literally) a couple-line text with one of their guys yesterday, but they apparently have some people who've worked on big-name games.

They have some people that have worked on big name games (like Jack Mamais specifically as they focus on him alot... although he has a 5+ year gap though where he was teaching prior to joining this project from his bio). The problem is that the goals they've set both in funding and the type of game they're attempting are more appropriate for famous studios led by gaming celebrities, not new studios with no prior work who just hired some experienced people working together for the first time (and apparently telecommuting from pre-crowdfunding press releases). I really wish they would have chosen a less ambitious project to start with and then (after it's success) moved on to the moby dick of gaming (the "AAA game").

There's a lot of factors that go in successful electronic game projects, which simply are not present. It's not only a factor of 'Have a few key people worked in gaming', but also the proper planning and management. Do they have a reasonable and achievable roadmap? Do they have an agreed upon process and periodic deliverables? Do they have a functional and 'fun' prototype prior to production?

The fact that most of their staff is operating remotely is guaranteed doom for anything of this complexity. It simply does not happen. The difficulty of communications shafts productivity that hard. The 'rockstar developer' is also a bit of a myth, and less productive in a lot of cases than just random people with maybe only 2 or 3 years experience, who are well managed.

As for their kickstarter... they don't seem to realize that Kickstarter isn't a magical button one pushes, then receives money from. It, in actuality, is an ADVERTISEMENT PRE-ORDER engine more than any 'investment' tool. That requires a very solid set of deliverables to be shown and in an advanced state. Not to mention within 9 months of delivery. Otherwise, absolutely no one will pledge, and the project takes a PR hit.

In this case, all of the above has occurred, extremely predictably.

The pledge levels are garbage too.

Pledge 15 dollars, and get 15 dollars of in game currency WOO.

Guys - I like HG. I can never find anyone near me who plays it.

I've driven an hour and a half one-way to meet a guy to play it and he never showed. I had issues when the scale changed from 1/87 - but hate to admit - it is more manageable at its current scale.

I loved the first video game and liked the second one. I too feel this is rather ambitious. But I am backing it for now. I can put in suggestions and see how it goes - in case it succeeds or fails.

I think there is a little too much fat in terms of items that will probably end up junked/boxed ebayed off that I will not use. The key ring stuff. But I understand it is a for of relatively minimal investment on advertisement.

I am concerned that it will fail - it does not look to be picking up steam - but there are several other KS projects and about 36 days to go. I feel that $800K is too much and $4 million is a passionate desire to achieve.

But I am putting my money in on this to see how it goes - worst case - nothing for awhile. Moderate - it gets funded streamline later in another project. Best case - it gets funded and ihave a new source for HG Video games.

 PanzerTC wrote:
Guys - I like HG. I can never find anyone near me who plays it.

I've driven an hour and a half one-way to meet a guy to play it and he never showed. I had issues when the scale changed from 1/87 - but hate to admit - it is more manageable at its current scale.

I loved the first video game and liked the second one. I too feel this is rather ambitious. But I am backing it for now. I can put in suggestions and see how it goes - in case it succeeds or fails.

I think there is a little too much fat in terms of items that will probably end up junked/boxed ebayed off that I will not use. The key ring stuff. But I understand it is a for of relatively minimal investment on advertisement.

I am concerned that it will fail - it does not look to be picking up steam - but there are several other KS projects and about 36 days to go. I feel that $800K is too much and $4 million is a passionate desire to achieve.

But I am putting my money in on this to see how it goes - worst case - nothing for awhile. Moderate - it gets funded streamline later in another project. Best case - it gets funded and ihave a new source for HG Video games.

Go for it.

People call kickstarter a scam, but it is far safer than paypal (after 30 days), or anonymous online credit card transactions.

All the money is returned in the likely event that this doesn't make its money.

I also like Heavy Gear. And I would pledge for this project if I thought they were legitimate. They are asking for way too much money, for a project that will tax players for years to come. Their model, we invest and then we pay. Also, mektek has a reputation for supporting their products until they get bored of them.

Well, they just announced a significant update, with much less-unreasonable goals and a single-player campaign as part of the kickoff.

That shows that they're at least willing to take and use feedback, and that alone was enough to get me to pledge.

I absolutely love Heavy Gear (Heavy Gear 2 on the PC is what got me started in this whole hobby in the first place!) and I hope they can grow the IP.

That shows how desperate they are, really, but then, given how the KS has performed so far, it's appropriate.

That's probably a more accurate assessment. This really is an overly-ambitious project, because the existing fan base isn't nearly big enough to support the game that they have in mind, even if it does get funded.

They should have done something much more modest and used that to expand later.

Nick Lind Do you guys have any forums so that we can chat about the game with others who are excited for it?

11 hours ago · Like..

Heavy Gear Assault I'm not sure Nick, I think I saw a post on reddit.

11 hours ago · Like..

Heavy Gear Assault However, I'll ask our web guys and see if we can start a forum. If so, I'll post details here.

11 hours ago · Like · 3

Oh dear...

People have been telling them what they want for months, but kickstarter has forced them to reevaluate. Not surprising.

I still don't trust them not to take the money, and then after the kickstarter say that they cannot make the single player game until the multiplayer one is successful.

Hmm. I only started following it a couple days ago, so that's not very encouraging to hear.

 Gearhead wrote:
Hmm. I only started following it a couple days ago, so that's not very encouraging to hear.

Well some background on the developers.

Their main team was formed out of Mektek, a team of modders that has imploded several times during their lifetime.

For their most recent project, they managed to get the rights from Microsoft for MechWarrior 4 Mercenaries.

They released MW4 for free under the terms they struck with Microsoft.

They added all their mechs to the game, broke and fixed the game about 5 times, promised that the game would be fixed and updated with new multiplayer modes.

Then Heavy Gear came along, and they dropped MW4 completely. They tried to move the rights to another modding group, but Microsoft wouldn't allow it. So that project is in limbo, because of their actions, and they refuse to take responsibility for it, or comment on the current state of the license. So far MW4 isn't even legally hosted anywhere anymore. You aren't allowed to discuss this fact on their forums.

Not to mention several other destroyed projects in their recent history.

Assault Tech 1: Battletech
Solaris Assault Tech

Each of these were abandoned in turn.

Now they call themselves a "AAA" game studio but they have left us with a significant amount of reason to doubt they can complete a project.

I remember MekTek and their MW4 stuff, but I hadn't heard of THAT massive cockup.

That's even less encouraging. Fortunately there's that little button marked "Cancel pledge" at the bottom of the page, should the need arise.

 Gearhead wrote:
I remember MekTek and their MW4 stuff, but I hadn't heard of THAT massive cockup.

That's even less encouraging. Fortunately there's that little button marked "Cancel pledge" at the bottom of the page, should the need arise.

As I said, let it ride, kickstarter is very focused on making you happy, rather than the company. if you get squeamish just ask for your money back. More than likely you will simply get your money back in a few weeks when the project fails, and mektek moves on to "DUST TACTICS ARENA" or some such.

Well, I would rather be more optimistic than you are, GBL.

And I believe they discussed MW4 until they were dickened out by all the naysayers. If you were one of the 'Zs', as I put it there, I happened to notice quite a few times where the developers actually answered those points every single stinking time, and it still wasn't good enough.

But that's then, this is now. Stompy Bot and MekTek are both trying to get Heavy Gear Assault up, and KS has been what everyone has been asking for. Folks have been asking for single-player, so they changed it up and accepted that and have updated it to include single-player missions.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stompybot/heavy-gear-assault-0/posts

They're doing a lot to try and get what the players want, but unless YOU, the PLAYER, go out and spread the word that there is a new Heavy Gear game out there that needs your help, it's not going to go anywhere.

Kickstarter isn't a magical one-press button, but it also requires that the folks who are actually interested in the game to share news and updates about it themselves, if they want to see what they've pledged come to fruition. So, it is an investment on the pledger's part as well, if they truly want to have that game, then they'll discuss it with others elsewhere.

So I'll keep on providing the updates here and see what happens. God bless!

-Brandon F.

Faith alone will only get you so far.
http://media.oglaf.com/comic/bilge.jpg
(Link is safe for work, the rest of the site ISN'T, you've been warned !)

Feel how you want about the project and the team (as far as I'm concerned, they're amateurs who believe their own hype too much), there's no hiding it's a failure as far as crowdfunding campaigns go.
It took them 4 days, including the early rush, to make what they should make on a single average day. Given the drop that occurs after the early rush, if they wanted to have a chance of making their first goal, they should have made around 80 to 100k, on the first day. Five days later, they have only made 22k, that's a Kickstarter that won't even remotely be succesful.
It's actually the first time I've ever seen a KS lower its ambitions mid-project, which I think is sending a very clear message...

BrandonKF wrote:

Well, I would rather be more optimistic than you are, GBL.

And I believe they discussed MW4 until they were dickened out by all the naysayers. If you were one of the 'Zs', as I put it there, I happened to notice quite a few times where the developers actually answered those points every single stinking time, and it still wasn't good enough.

I have never seen them answer a question that was framed around them fulfilling their obligations to the MW4 franchise. They WOULD however try to reframe the debate as "When we (got rid of the license) Big bad evil Microsoft/Topps would not relicense it, ah well not our problem."

They could have chosen not to rock the boat, and continue offering MW4 as is.

Also, AT:1 and Solaris Arena. Other deceased projects that they have let flounder. But I am sure this one will be fine. /sarcasm

BrandonKF wrote:
Kickstarter isn't a magical one-press button, but it also requires that the folks who are actually interested in the game to share news and updates about it themselves, if they want to see what they've pledged come to fruition. So, it is an investment on the pledger's part as well, if they truly want to have that game, then they'll discuss it with others elsewhere.

We agree on this at least. On kickstarter, you leverage your reputation (last 3 projects dead while incomplete) against a modest business plan (these guys want 10 million for the full game) for the potential of gaining critical mass on social media, often rocketing projects to unexpected heights of success.

To do this successfully projects generally have incredible value for money in pledge levels (I can pledge 15 dollars for 15 dollars of in game currency? Woo!) and feasible stretch goals that actually give things to the players, often every 10,000 - 100,000 dollars or so. (First stretch, 1.5 million, now they have changed it to vague new features every $50,000 or so )

But what you miss, is that the project will generally make people WANT to spread the word. But there is nothing here. There is a chance that the kickstarter will be a learning opportunity for the devs (the single player mode is an improvement, but single player "episodes" is so vague as to be useless) and their next campaign will be a success. I have seen similar projects cancel themselves 22 days in and relaunch. But they didn't rethink any parts of their original failed approach when they started this campaign.

Thank you for returning to the thread, it gives us someone to argue against.

I'm not interested in arguing against you.

As far as discussions go, if you wish go to the following link:

http://www.mektek.net/forums/forum/234-hga-discussion/

Or you can post your questions on their Kickstarter.

God bless, all.

-Brandon F.

I've seen a lot of Kickstarters come and go, and this one is gonna go, and not in the good way.

The two biggest Kickstarters ever, have both been Planescape related, and if you look at their model for what they did, it's no wonder why they skyrocketed to those millions. Easily attainable goals, HUUUGE fanbase (Guilty as charged and damn proud of it...MORTE GET OUT OF THE CLOSET YOU BASTARD!!), and not to mention TONS of incentives. Then the cross campaigning between the two, as well as original heads and staff working on those games? HELLOO!

Heavy Gear...Well...Let's be honest, it's an over priced miniatures game that had a 40 episode TV series, 2 Video games in the late 90s and is honestly not a very popular game with a substantial fanbase to support it. It doesn't have near anything like the fan base for more popular, famous and time tested intellectual properties such as Warhammer 40K (Most of us love it, despite GW's attempts at strangling us and begging us to love em as much as we love their product I know, I know.), Battletech (Still my most beloved of all Miniature games), FoW (Because history matters...Dammit...), or hell even Spartan Games who have been coming up more and more around my FLGS.

Heavy Gear is well...It's a game that hasn't engendered much trust with the gaming community at large. Given a few companies I've named haven't done that either but look at em, they are still some of the most well known table top games in the world. Warhammer and FoW have some of the biggest gaming communities out there, tens of thousands of players and hobbyists buy up their products! Warhammer has what...10, 15 PC titles under its belt? (Fantasy and 40K combined, 40K having the larger slice of the pie.) And hell, who wouldn't wanna be in command of an entire Russian Red Guard Tank Division? That's a hell of a lot of Communist steel to throw Hitler's way and lemme tell ya, Soviets scare the crap out of me in that game.

In the end, each game relies upon its devs to bring out the best in their games. Right now GW's dev talent is beyond compare, they have some of the most amazing people working there. (Aside from Corporate/Management/Marketing...those three places could use a good cleaning out with a heavy Flamer or 6...THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS OVERKILL WHEN DEALING WITH THEIR KIND!!) FoW has Battlefront, and let's face it, they are doing a damn fine job when it comes down to keeping the game balanced with such wide ranging and differentiating army doctrines (Again...Soviets scare me.) Heavy Gear's devs...well...Looking at their past history...Not gonna step on that land mine a second time in my life, and the team they've gone with for this...Yeeaaaah....

BrandonKF wrote:
I'm not interested in arguing against you.

As far as discussions go, if you wish go to the following link:

http://www.mektek.net/forums/forum/234-hga-discussion/

Or you can post your questions on their Kickstarter.

God bless, all.

-Brandon F.

Your choice not to participate, but I haven't had a single one of my questions answered by the devs on their facebook page, so I am not going to go out of my way to be ignored elsewhere.

As to the kickstarter page, I would have to back to post, and I wont do that until I see something worth backing.

Baineblade wrote:I've seen a lot of Kickstarters come and go, and this one is gonna go, and not in the good way.

The two biggest Kickstarters ever, have both been Planescape related, and if you look at their model for what they did, it's no wonder why they skyrocketed to those millions. Easily attainable goals, HUUUGE fanbase (Guilty as charged and damn proud of it...MORTE GET OUT OF THE CLOSET YOU BASTARD!!), and not to mention TONS of incentives. Then the cross campaigning between the two, as well as original heads and staff working on those games? HELLOO!

I wouldn't know about those, honestly, since I was only recently introduced to Kickstarter when I was looking over the newer products being issued by Fate CORE and Robotech.

Heavy Gear...Well...Let's be honest, it's an over priced miniatures game that had a 40 episode TV series, 2 Video games in the late 90s and is honestly not a very popular game with a substantial fanbase to support it. It doesn't have near anything like the fan base for more popular, famous and time tested intellectual properties such as Warhammer 40K (Most of us love it, despite GW's attempts at strangling us and begging us to love em as much as we love their product I know, I know.), Battletech (Still my most beloved of all Miniature games), FoW (Because history matters...Dammit...), or hell even Spartan Games who have been coming up more and more around my FLGS.

Ahem... overpriced? Not hardly. For what it's worth, the game can be played for less than what your average Warhammer 40K army list costs.

Heavy Gear is well...It's a game that hasn't engendered much trust with the gaming community at large. Given a few companies I've named haven't done that either but look at em, they are still some of the most well known table top games in the world. Warhammer and FoW have some of the biggest gaming communities out there, tens of thousands of players and hobbyists buy up their products! Warhammer has what...10, 15 PC titles under its belt? (Fantasy and 40K combined, 40K having the larger slice of the pie.) And hell, who wouldn't wanna be in command of an entire Russian Red Guard Tank Division? That's a hell of a lot of Communist steel to throw Hitler's way and lemme tell ya, Soviets scare the crap out of me in that game.

I studied history because I enjoyed history. And I enjoyed Warhammer to a point. But the difference lies in the fact that 'grim and dark' do not the world make.

As far as trust with the gaming community at large... do please let me know where this mistrust occurred? When and where exactly did Dream Pod 9 so alienate the world's fanbase by stomping on their dreams?

GBL wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
I'm not interested in arguing against you.

As far as discussions go, if you wish go to the following link:

http://www.mektek.net/forums/forum/234-hga-discussion/

Or you can post your questions on their Kickstarter.

God bless, all.

-Brandon F.

Your choice not to participate, but I haven't had a single one of my questions answered by the devs on their facebook page, so I am not going to go out of my way to be ignored elsewhere.

As to the kickstarter page, I would have to back to post, and I wont do that until I see something worth backing.

Maybe because you are asking questions that are simply the same old stuff that you've touted here.

As to the backing, you can back with $1, and then you can ask questions. And you can cancel your pledge, as previously mentioned by Gearhead.

But seriously, I doubt you will change your mind, or even ask any questions that don't intend to be pointed towards accusations, because you don't want to change your mind. The guys could slave away for hours, days, weeks on end, and put out a really great product (even after being shouted at from several angles that they're just after everybody's money), and you still would be warning off the rest of the folks out there that these companies aren't worth backing.

With support like that, who needs enemies?

-Brandon F.

Baineblade wrote:

Heavy Gear...Well...Let's be honest, it's an over priced miniatures game that had a 40 episode TV series, 2 Video games in the late 90s and is honestly not a very popular game with a substantial fanbase to support it. It doesn't have near anything like the fan base for more popular, famous and time tested intellectual properties such as Warhammer 40K (Most of us love it, despite GW's attempts at strangling us and begging us to love em as much as we love their product I know, I know.), Battletech (Still my most beloved of all Miniature games), FoW (Because history matters...Dammit...), or hell even Spartan Games who have been coming up more and more around my FLGS.

Two video games, a TV show, and an IP that's still around closing in on 20 years? That's a hell of a lot more than most tabletop games get, aside from Battletech (now a shadow of its former self and living off a bygone era) and Warhammer, what other tabletop miniatures IP can claim such success? Just because nobody plays it in *your* area doesn't mean it isn't popular in other places.

As for price...Methinks you really don't have any idea of what you're talking about. I was able to build armies of tournament size with extras for multiple builds for 4 different factions, oh an terrain...for the price of a new 1850pt CSM army.

And the minis, aside from some of the really old sculpts that are in the process of getting redone, are beautiful.

BrandonKF wrote:

Maybe because you are asking questions that are simply the same old stuff that you've touted here.

So the devs don't have to answer the hard questions. I see.

BrandonKF wrote:

But seriously, I doubt you will change your mind, or even ask any questions that don't intend to be pointed towards accusations, because you don't want to change your mind. The guys could slave away for hours, days, weeks on end, and put out a really great product (even after being shouted at from several angles that they're just after everybody's money), and you still would be warning off the rest of the folks out there that these companies aren't worth backing.

With support like that, who needs enemies?

-Brandon F.

I could support this. They have already gone halfway towards running a less "pants on head" kickstarter with their recent changes. The issue now lies with their pledge levels having near zero value for money and the amount of time they have left. It is unfeasible for a project asking for this much money to succeed without a massive end rally. You might even note that up thread I was telling someone that they should jump in, if they are interested, because they are protected by the move to kickstarter.

There is, for instance, nothing stopping them from making the 15 dollar pledge come with 15,000 USD "worth" of in game currency. Its just a value in a database. To lock it down to simply a preorder of in game currency for some pledge levels is silly. If they had a pledge level that was just the music by Jeehun Hwang, I would have already backed.

Why I wont pledge: There is no reward tier that potentially outweighs having to chase mektek for my money, if they somehow do succeed, but fail to keep the game running. Its a chicken/egg situation. They need to support a good project, long term to repair their reputation. They need money to do this (seemingly), They are leveraging their reputation for this money.

You remember, that originally this was a project asking for 10 million dollars, through an unsigned credit card transaction on their website, with only a couple pieces of concept art and a 30 second logo clip as proof they can make this happen. Criticism is a natural response to the way things have been handled.

BrandonKF wrote:

The guys could slave away for hours, days, weeks on end, and put out a really great product (even after being shouted at from several angles that they're just after everybody's money), and you still would be warning off the rest of the folks out there that these companies aren't worth backing.

And I wanted to tackle this one specifically. What I am warning people against, is getting invested in a game that doesn't exist, being created by a team with a reputation for vaporware. If they produce a good game, and they continue to support it while fans are willing to pay for it, I will consider myself proven wrong, and I will be happy to admit it.

However, I will never apologize for alerting people to poor practices. Everyone should be aware of the situation before they make a choice, even if that choice is to back them.

GBL wrote:

However, I will never apologize for alerting people to poor practices. Everyone should be aware of the situation before they make a choice, even if that choice is to back them.

And I'm glad you do. I'm going to continue my backing, but it's a much better-informed decision than it was when I first did it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

As for price...Methinks you really don't have any idea of what you're talking about. I was able to build armies of tournament size with extras for multiple builds for 4 different factions, oh an terrain...for the price of a new 1850pt CSM army.

One thing to keep in mind is that comparing HGB's price to 40k may not be the best comparison. It's certainly valid - but 40k and Fantasy are known to be horribly overpriced. It might be better to compare them against similar forces for Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux or Mercs. HGB fits more as a second tier game with the latter three in most stores, in my experience.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that where you put the goalposts are important.

 IceRaptor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

As for price...Methinks you really don't have any idea of what you're talking about. I was able to build armies of tournament size with extras for multiple builds for 4 different factions, oh an terrain...for the price of a new 1850pt CSM army.

One thing to keep in mind is that comparing HGB's price to 40k may not be the best comparison. It's certainly valid - but 40k and Fantasy are known to be horribly overpriced. It might be better to compare them against similar forces for Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux or Mercs. HGB fits more as a second tier game with the latter three in most stores, in my experience.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that where you put the goalposts are important.

I always make my decisions based on relative mini price. For instance, I wouldn't play a game with a single 28mm miniature that cost me 150 AUD even if it was "All I needed to play the game" over warhammer just because "The game is overall cheaper". But obviously everyone makes their own value judgements. For me, I think HG is pricey, but I have bought 30 dollar garage kits based on battletech, and even 30 dollar single Battletech figurines from controversial underground casters, simply because I like the sculpt more than the official one, so I don't think I really get a say in this.

 IceRaptor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

As for price...Methinks you really don't have any idea of what you're talking about. I was able to build armies of tournament size with extras for multiple builds for 4 different factions, oh an terrain...for the price of a new 1850pt CSM army.

One thing to keep in mind is that comparing HGB's price to 40k may not be the best comparison. It's certainly valid - but 40k and Fantasy are known to be horribly overpriced. It might be better to compare them against similar forces for Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux or Mercs. HGB fits more as a second tier game with the latter three in most stores, in my experience.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that where you put the goalposts are important.

Perhaps, but I haven't found HG to be too hugely far out on price for what you need to build an army, especially relative to the quality of the mini's. Getting into Infinity cost me more than getting into Heavy Gear did for my first army. I haven't found the prices to be much divergent from these games. The new Drake is roughly the same size and cost as an Infinity TAG for instance, and while not quite as stunningly dynamic (I do love my PanO Cutter), still looks great and has a lot more weapon and posing options (not to mention is much sturdier).

GBL wrote:

I always make my decisions based on relative mini price. For instance, I wouldn't play a game with a single 28mm miniature that cost me 150 AUD even if it was "All I needed to play the game" over warhammer just because "The game is overall cheaper". But obviously everyone makes their own value judgements

Well, that was the only point I was trying to make - expensive or not is going to be relative to whatever goalpost you choose. Like most skirmish games, it's cheaper than 40k simply by virtue of needing fewer models. Depending on what army you field it can be more or less expensive (in total) than Warmachine. It tends to compare equivalently to Infinity on a price per figure and total army value, but Malifaux, Mercs and Dark Age tend to be 'cheaper' as you need fewer figures (typically).

I was just trying to provide nuance to the 'expensive or not' discussion. It really depends on the context you're choosing, IMO.

GBL wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:

Maybe because you are asking questions that are simply the same old stuff that you've touted here.

So the devs don't have to answer the hard questions. I see.

No, I was pointing out that what has happened in the past has already happened and they are trying to get something started in the here and now. And by all the showings they've given up, I'd say they are doing their best with what limited resources and manpower they have on hand.

I could support this. They have already gone halfway towards running a less "pants on head" kickstarter with their recent changes. The issue now lies with their pledge levels having near zero value for money and the amount of time they have left. It is unfeasible for a project asking for this much money to succeed without a massive end rally. You might even note that up thread I was telling someone that they should jump in, if they are interested, because they are protected by the move to kickstarter.

There is, for instance, nothing stopping them from making the 15 dollar pledge come with 15,000 USD "worth" of in game currency. Its just a value in a database. To lock it down to simply a preorder of in game currency for some pledge levels is silly. If they had a pledge level that was just the music by Jeehun Hwang, I would have already backed.

Why I wont pledge: There is no reward tier that potentially outweighs having to chase mektek for my money, if they somehow do succeed, but fail to keep the game running. Its a chicken/egg situation. They need to support a good project, long term to repair their reputation. They need money to do this (seemingly), They are leveraging their reputation for this money.

You remember, that originally this was a project asking for 10 million dollars, through an unsigned credit card transaction on their website, with only a couple pieces of concept art and a 30 second logo clip as proof they can make this happen. Criticism is a natural response to the way things have been handled.

I remember, and I did mention this multiple times that the announcement was underwhelming, and disappointing. On the other hand, making the pledge equal the amount of money you get in-game is not horrible.

I don't suppose it would be too much to offer up a suggestion to them to make, say, a $5 pledge for some music by Mr. Hwang?

And I wanted to tackle this one specifically. What I am warning people against, is getting invested in a game that doesn't exist, being created by a team with a reputation for vaporware. If they produce a good game, and they continue to support it while fans are willing to pay for it, I will consider myself proven wrong, and I will be happy to admit it.

However, I will never apologize for alerting people to poor practices. Everyone should be aware of the situation before they make a choice, even if that choice is to back them.

Okay. I apologize for being an ass. You aren't wrong to do that. I meant what I said about not wanting to argue; truthfully, I don't want to defend people I barely know against other people I barely know. I just prefer if folks would have a little faith when that faith is given freely, on my part, and also given support by another person's actions. The guys have obviously been trying to put this game into motion the last five months, so I would like others to see that and accept that it's not all vaporware after all. God bless you and yours.

IceRaptor wrote:

GBL wrote:

I always make my decisions based on relative mini price. For instance, I wouldn't play a game with a single 28mm miniature that cost me 150 AUD even if it was "All I needed to play the game" over warhammer just because "The game is overall cheaper". But obviously everyone makes their own value judgements

Well, that was the only point I was trying to make - expensive or not is going to be relative to whatever goalpost you choose. Like most skirmish games, it's cheaper than 40k simply by virtue of needing fewer models. Depending on what army you field it can be more or less expensive (in total) than Warmachine. It tends to compare equivalently to Infinity on a price per figure and total army value, but Malifaux, Mercs and Dark Age tend to be 'cheaper' as you need fewer figures (typically).

I was just trying to provide nuance to the 'expensive or not' discussion. It really depends on the context you're choosing, IMO.

Vaktathi wrote:

 IceRaptor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

As for price...Methinks you really don't have any idea of what you're talking about. I was able to build armies of tournament size with extras for multiple builds for 4 different factions, oh an terrain...for the price of a new 1850pt CSM army.

One thing to keep in mind is that comparing HGB's price to 40k may not be the best comparison. It's certainly valid - but 40k and Fantasy are known to be horribly overpriced. It might be better to compare them against similar forces for Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux or Mercs. HGB fits more as a second tier game with the latter three in most stores, in my experience.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just that where you put the goalposts are important.

Perhaps, but I haven't found HG to be too hugely far out on price for what you need to build an army, especially relative to the quality of the mini's. Getting into Infinity cost me more than getting into Heavy Gear did for my first army. I haven't found the prices to be much divergent from these games. The new Drake is roughly the same size and cost as an Infinity TAG for instance, and while not quite as stunningly dynamic (I do love my PanO Cutter), still looks great and has a lot more weapon and posing options (not to mention is much sturdier).

Having bought Infinity miniatures compared to Heavy Gear, I'll agree that it isn't difficult to get into some games like Malifaux and Infinity for a lower cost than Heavy Gear. HGB! generally tends to be more exciting and offer more opportunities when played above the squad level of 5 Gears... meaning you'll need anywhere from 10-15 units.

I will also say I am biased, not only because I enjoy Heavy Gear, but also because many of the other options out there on the market don't appeal to me. I used to enjoy Warhammer 40,000, but the overall tone of the game eventually wore thin on me.

Malifaux doesn't particularly interest me, since it, too, is horror-based.

Flames of War might be interesting, but I have yet to enter into it.

Infinity is the one that actually captured my attention long enough for me to get into the rules and find out that it was a great system, if complicated in the beginning. That very complicated system also brings with it ample opportunities for players to make do with whatever they have handy, which is something I find appealing when it comes to tactics and overall strategy in a tabletop game.

Peace, all.

-Brandon F.