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BrandonKF wrote:

Okay. I apologize for being an ass. You aren't wrong to do that. I meant what I said about not wanting to argue; truthfully, I don't want to defend people I barely know against other people I barely know. I just prefer if folks would have a little faith when that faith is given freely, on my part, and also given support by another person's actions. The guys have obviously been trying to put this game into motion the last five months, so I would like others to see that and accept that it's not all vaporware after all. God bless you and yours.

That "faith" isn't given freely, since at this point, expressing faith in the project requires putting money into it.
Besides that, a project is vaporware until it's been released, and Mektek doesn't have the best track record, there. I think people have every right to be cautious.

As I mentioned, Hudson, I gave my faith freely. Others may not. I'm just pointing out that the new stuff being put out shows that there's more than 'vaporware' being attempted. But if that is your definition, I respect that.

Also, here is their most recent updates concerning the game:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stompybot/heavy-gear-assault-0/posts/491565

Hey Brandon, as the original poster here in the thread can you update the title and text of the first entry with links to reflect that the kickstarter is now live? Only you can do that... and fight forest fires.

... wow... that might help, wouldn't it? <_<

Me no like myself right now.

-Brandon F.

No worries... I just figured that you don't really post here much and maybe thought it was like the DP9 forums where you can't edit posts after a day or so. When I saw you post a few days in a row, I figured I'd mention it.

On target with your assumption. Editing past a month is alien to me.

-Brandon F.

BrandonKF wrote:


No, I was pointing out that what has happened in the past has already happened and they are trying to get something started in the here and now. And by all the showings they've given up, I'd say they are doing their best with what limited resources and manpower they have on hand.

That's true.

2 Points however.

1. I was heavily invested (emotionally, i don't think they ever asked for money, i would have given if able) in their previous projects. I can see that by all accounts they are trying to do something new and successful. However, the way they treated their previous properties, even after the new website and all, is astonishingly poor. Had they given their previous projects a better send off, rather than jump on to the new bandwagon, people wouldn't be so harsh.

2. I am currently evangelising a project that hasn't yet made it to kickstarter. At every turn the developers acknowledge their history, give us amazing peeks behind the curtain, and humbly acknowledge and improve their project based on very very pointed criticism. They actually invite it. If you think I have been harsh on this project, then you are not ready for what i have sent to a project i like. However i am certain they will be successful, for these reasons.

BrandonKF wrote:

Okay. I apologize for being an ass. You aren't wrong to do that. I meant what I said about not wanting to argue; truthfully, I don't want to defend people I barely know against other people I barely know. I just prefer if folks would have a little faith when that faith is given freely, on my part, and also given support by another person's actions. The guys have obviously been trying to put this game into motion the last five months, so I would like others to see that and accept that it's not all vaporware after all. God bless you and yours.

You weren't being an ass. And you don't have to argue. I understand that my posts can read like a massive blunt object. But had the guys approached their project from a different perspective, they would probably be funded by now. However everything i have seen has shown that they want to run their project one way, and their audience wants it a different way. Every successful kickstarter has built upon a model that the early pioneers carved out for them. By turning their back on that model, they have hurt their chances of being successful. And that, far more than anything I can possibly accomplish, is what is damaging their kickstarter campaign.

As for the 15 dollars = 15 dollars. Having a massive amount of value in the campaign, is more important here due to the free to play nature of the game. Why put 15 dollars of credit into a game before it is made, when I can wait and see if the game is good. This is considered a loss, if the game is not good. If for instance, I can get 2 - 3 times my moneys worth if I take a risk now, they see it as an advantage of backing now, rather than playing for free later. This is for instance, how the Mechwarrior Online Founders Program worked. I think the amount of in game currency (and in game swag) I ended up with was over 250 dollars worth, for 100 dollars.

Honestly, I suppose I wouldn't mind having someone who was bluntly honest for a comrade.

It's difficult to swallow sometimes, though, I'll admit. Like bitter medicine.

But I understand, all the same. You probably had the same emotional attachment to their previous works as I do to Heavy Gear. That may be strange for some, but I suppose that for those who actually enjoy what a setting offers, it makes a big difference.

And the price thing is something I'm not really familiar with, although I did see Robotech's own work become something that went from you paying perhaps $6.50 per model down to 2.50, thanks to all their stretch goals.

As far as evangelising a project, if you could PM me, I'd be interested to hear about the project you're supporting.

Here are a couple more links dealing with what's going on in the HGA world.

http://jacehallshow.com/news/gaming/preview/20130523/exclusive-heavy-gear-assault/

-Brandon F.

BrandonKF wrote:


But I understand, all the same. You probably had the same emotional attachment to their previous works as I do to Heavy Gear. That may be strange for some, but I suppose that for those who actually enjoy what a setting offers, it makes a big difference.
.

I was actually betting on AT1 becoming rather good/popular.

It had serious potential.

MW4 is something I own anyways, I just enjoyed the idea of continued support and upgrades. As I have mentioned before, I would have loved to support mektek financially to this end.

Well, all the same, I'll post what one of the developers mentioned right here:

"To clarify a bit for everyone here, the idea was to build a multiplayer base on arena combat to then further develop a north vs. south world war game (bringing in coop and AI at that point) then build a singleplayer campaign while all that was up and running - never to "Not build singleplayer" or "focus on multiplayer". The stuff at the high stretch goals was to reflect what it'd cost to have all that done by the date indicated on kickstarter, not to say "we won't do this unless you give us this much", that probably should've been clarified sooner.

It's a shame some people don't want to try to understand that even if we did have unlimited resources - we need to build a game with movement, combat systems, balanced weapons, test damage, customisation and all that stuff first - that's most of the way to a multiplayer arena game. "Focusing on a singleplayer game" would still start with that, only rather than have a game to play when those systems were ready, you'd have to wait for the singleplayer campaign to be done too. I'm not sure why anyone would want launch 6 months to a year later unless they weren't playing anything but singleplayer, and then it seems unfair on the people who do want to play multiplayer (potentially much later multiplayer if the game hadn't been designed for multiplayer underneath from the beginning to save a little more time).

By doing episodic missions we can release more stuff to play sooner, it's more work with not a lot of resources which may be more difficult but certainly not impossible to do that way so that's the way we'll work if that's what people want. Ignoring the fans and failing would mean that the industry would from now on likely never bother with singleplayer or even moderately complex mech games, having their suspicions "confirmed" that people just want stuff like MWO or Hawken (it could still be done in a different kickstarter maybe, but it's a horrible thought to me that we might be stuck with this new kind of simplified mech game for good. I want to at least be able to say I did everything I could)."


-Brandon F.

The team just posted on their KS that if it fails, there won't be a game, which directly contradicts previous statements by mektek admins on their own board.
Sources :
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stompybot/heavy-gear-assault-0/comments
http://www.mektek.net/forums/topic/213794-what-if/

Given the KS numbers so far, I think it's time to go "Game over man, game over !".

Edited after request, for more awesomeness.

 HudsonD wrote:


Given the KS numbers so far, I think it's "Game over".

The post would have been so much more awesome if you had written "game over, man! game over!" instead.

 warboss wrote:

The post would have been so much more awesome if you had written "game over, man! game over!" instead.

I think he was trying to be subtle for once. Don't ask me why. He's usually a fan of nuking the entire site from orbit.

mrondeau wrote:
I think he was trying to be subtle for once.

Subtle... Hudson?

Should I short sell all my stocks? Is the end here?

 IceRaptor wrote:

Subtle... Hudson?

Should I short sell all my stocks? Is the end here?

I'm just as confused as you are!

 HudsonD wrote:
The team just posted on their KS that if it fails, there won't be a game, which directly contradicts previous statements by mektek admins on their own board.
Sources :
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stompybot/heavy-gear-assault-0/comments
http://www.mektek.net/forums/topic/213794-what-if/

Given the KS numbers so far, I think it's time to go "Game over man, game over !".

Edited after request, for more awesomeness.

I think the issue is that they always assumed they would end up with some money, and that's why they didn't go with the kickstarter route to begin with (refund on unsuccessful project) But their actions have had the end result of alienating the community, and at least look partially dodgy.

They will need to eat a great deal of humble pie if they are to succeed.

I would suggest that they rescope, shed some (preferably mektek) weight, and come back to us with a new Single Player Heavy Gear experience. (with the option for them to use the assets to create a F2P MMO later down the track) This would be particularly effective if they use a different Game Engine. Half of their costs are most likely license fees for UE4. With a bit of elbow grease, OGRE3d (and derivatives) or Unity 3d would be a better platform for this game.

The probable failure of the kickstarter brings up the question of what they'll do with the money that was raised during the private crowdfunding they did on the website. That money was technically raised with the TOS fine print disclaimer that refunds are only at the sole discretion of Mektek/Stompy.

Well, they held a survey for backers yesterday, and apparently their information and the way they answered stuff from the crowd has had an impact. Also, wanted to share this comment from one of the pledgers:

Just pledged $1 to say this:
"I think you should just dump the F2P model and let us Kickerstarters fund a DRM-free nickel-and-diming-free mech game"
You are so right, Swiftpaw. I do not want to pay for the game in it, but BEFORE playing it. I hate MWO because they killed MWLL, and MWO and HAWKEN both for jumping on the moneygrabbing micropayment hype train which is currently wrecking my PC gaming world. Do I want to see this gak going down on Kickstarter too? Hell, no.


And the response given:

@ThomasN: We realize that many mech fans have been burned by our competitors but the PC gaming market has grown significantly with the advent of digital only downloads, micro-transactions, subscriptions, and the likes. Certainly games like TF2, WoT, EVE, and WoW have huge followings and massive support from their fans with many millions of players. While we do not wish to comment on your bad experiences with MWO and Hawken - you should realize that we are here to do things right. This is not a cash grab - we are gamers just like you! MekTek started off as a mod team not some evil corporation. F2P isn't the problem - its companies taking advantage of players that is the problem. That's not what we're about. How many games have you purchased off the shelf that were misrepresented in their marketing? I know I had my share of disappointments. That ultimately is why for the greater gaming market F2P is not a bad model at all. It allows you to try the product and if done right - allows you to keep having fun with the free version forever. In many ways the good companies used to release demos of their game back in the day that did just that. Before F2P there were demos. However, remember when MW2: Netmech was released for free? That was one of the best and it was the very first multiplayer 3D mech game and it was released for free back in 1995! I really don't think anything free is ruining anything for anyone. Its just that you've been burned by someone that was purposefully trying to take advantage of you. Give us a chance instead of holding us accountable for our competitors mistakes!

-Vince

Shortly after completing the survey, one of the backers (who I'll shorthand as B) had this to say:

Having just completed their survey, I would say that I'm now more supportive of this product. I won't go into any details other than to say "Stompy Bot, you need to get that information out. It will HELP."
.
It has some distinct differences from a normal P2W style F2P-game. It's still all about the monetization, but, at least this has some aspects that make good, solid sense. I’m coming from a position of "I can't imagine what they could say about F2P/P2W to convince me to support them" to "wow, that actually makes sense, and I'd do that in a heart-beat." All I can say is “everyone, try to remain objective and receptive to new ideas.” That’s all they asked of me (well, they didn’t, I ask that of myself and give it to everyone).
.
Keep in mind, Stompy Bot, that F2P is synonymous, for most people, with P2W. It is with me, and that isn’t likely to change. F2C is somewhat different, but, people are going to have to see its options before they can understand what you're doing. And, I don't think a lot of them will get it. Without going into details (though there was no NDA, I realize you’re still working on aspects of it, and, as such, I’m not going to throw too much bad data out) a lot of people will still see it as P2W.


So, the question of whether or not HGA will be funded by the end of its run will depend a great deal on the company really pushing its marketing and explaining what it has in mind for the game.

For those of you who are very much against the format, I will respect your opinions. God bless, all.

Let's be honest there, they aren't going to make it, it's not even remotely close.

Am I the only one that's confused about why they are releasing all that content now, and not in february ?

I'm willing to wait and see what comes of it.

And the reason why they released this content during the Kickstarter was because they have been creating the bulk of it for the past two months. It's difficult to release content that you are working on from the ground-up.

BrandonKF wrote:
I'm willing to wait and see what comes of it.

And the reason why they released this content during the Kickstarter was because they have been creating the bulk of it for the past two months. It's difficult to release content that you are working on from the ground-up.

Which brings up the question of how successful they could have been if they had worked on more content before starting the crowdfunding... I realize it might be a chicken and egg scenario (they need crowdfunding to afford to work on content but the crowdfunding won't succeed unless they have content to show off first) but the last minute pulling an all-nighter to bang out the term paper overall feel of the crowdfunding is a bit disheartening. I keep coming back to the (IMO) bad decision of setting such an unrealistic goal in the first place instead of a smaller but more attainable goal like a smaller indie HG game. What's better.. What's worse? Failing at an unrealistically grandiose goal or succeeding on a much more mundane project? It's obviously a judgement call without an absolute right or wrong answer but I'd personally prefer having *any* working Heavy Gear game out sometime in the near future.

I hear the chicken-and-egg thing quite a bit around the Net. Honestly? The men of Stompy Bot and MekTek have shown they are trying to make this game, and not merely in it for tons of money.

So what gives with folks?

Personally, I think the fact that MekTek is signed on with them is one of the reasons that everything came up first and foremost as 'vaporware'. Which is sad.

BrandonKF wrote:
The men of Stompy Bot and MekTek have shown they are trying to make this game, and not merely in it for tons of money.

So what gives with folks?

I think the issue lots of people have is that they don't feel they're proven that they're capable of making the holy grail mega expensive "AAA" game they want to do at OTHER PEOPLE'S cost. They've shown little technical expertise and attention to detail in their initial crowdfunding efforts; responsiveness to fan input is a laudible trait to a degree for a company but it isn't a replacement for either. They've simply bit off more than the community thinks they can chew and the (lack of) funding shows it. Like I said, I would have preferred if they had succeeded at both funding and accomplishing a more mundane goal than failing at such a grandiose one right out of the gate.

I understand that it was a pretty high level to be asking, but when you consider the rest of the boardgames/RPGs/miniature games that have been presented over Kickstarter, and their tremendous success, isn't it actually to be expected that a computer game which would span 4 different systems and use the most recent game engine contrived require some extra funds?

BrandonKF wrote:
I understand that it was a pretty high level to be asking, but when you consider the rest of the boardgames/RPGs/miniature games that have been presented over Kickstarter, and their tremendous success, isn't it actually to be expected that a computer game which would span 4 different systems and use the most recent game engine contrived require some extra funds?

I agree with you about there being an inherent difference in funding scale between board games but I think other video game kickstarters are a better comparison. Companies with years of continuous experience together, long histories of successful (both critically and commercially) games, and "rockstar" personalities leading them aimed for lower goals than Mektek did as a new startup with no history of successful independent products staffed by a few veteran (although a bit out of the loop) telecommuting staffers working together for the first time. Those same companies that have all those good things going for them compared to mektek/stompy still weren't able to raise more than half the lofty goals mektek set for themselves. Ambition is one thing but the goals for this were much closer to hubris especially with the incredibly poor effort put into the website funding campaign.

In the end, we keep coming back to the same thing... we have a company (company... not discrete individuals) that hasn't proven itself in any way asking in an initially very amateurish fashion that inspired no confidence for money that companies that have proven themselves in every way haven't been able to raise.

Even still, I'll keep trying to put it out there. Maybe with enough exposure and enough recognition folks will realize they are not actually trying to steal their money (which is practically the entirety of the argument that's been presented all along).

BrandonKF wrote:
Even still, I'll keep trying to put it out there. Maybe with enough exposure and enough recognition folks will realize they are not actually trying to steal their money (which is practically the entirety of the argument that's been presented all along).

No. The argument is that StompyBot is not actually capable of completing the project, not that they are trying to steal.

Except they are trying to complete it.

BrandonKF wrote:
Except they are trying to complete it.

I can try to win the Kentucky Derby as a jockey in my first race but, at 6'4" and more pounds than I care to admit, it's about as likely as this getting funded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrandonKF wrote:
Even still, I'll keep trying to put it out there. Maybe with enough exposure and enough recognition folks will realize they are not actually trying to steal their money (which is practically the entirety of the argument that's been presented all along).

That's not even close; the vast majority of points presented here point out that we don't believe they've shown us they're capable of completing this. Your consipiracy been mentioned in passing by one or two people but calling it "practically the entirety of the argument" is plainly false.

BrandonKF wrote:
Except they are trying to complete it.

I think most people agree with the statement that Mektek is genuinely trying to complete the project, that is not the issue at hand.
The big issue is that Mektek so far hasn't shown they have the right stuff for such an ambitious undertaking. If anything, they appear to have a messiah complex, with their claims of saving the mecha genre where everyone else has failed (their claims, not mine !).