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Made in au
Nimble Dark Rider




BrandonKF wrote:
I understand that it was a pretty high level to be asking, but when you consider the rest of the boardgames/RPGs/miniature games that have been presented over Kickstarter, and their tremendous success, isn't it actually to be expected that a computer game which would span 4 different systems and use the most recent game engine contrived require some extra funds?


I just did a bit of googling. While there is no actual official data some people have been quoted up to 750,000 dollars to license unreal.

Spoiler:
(my data is very out of date, but it is a good number, that lines up with the scale of the kickstarter, and it is unlikely that as they have added features it would have decreased. This price allegedly contains a support contract with epic)


That isn't the most you can pay for an engine, I think I saw gamebryo advertised over a million once.

But even if they are looking at lowballing it (one of the lower end packages was around 350,000 dollars) that's a massive chunk of their target.

The issue I have with this, is that they could easily support a lower cost indy engine. gamekit is really good and free. NeoAxis is even better, and comes with similar features and support as Unreal for a much lower price.
Spoiler:
(Note: If you were to google either of the above, find a dirty looking screenshot of low quality, and come back here and tell me that these engines are garbage, I would be forced to point out that the quality of the game assets directly effects the outcome of the graphics, and the rendering engine barely affects it, except for very specific circumstances. Ogre3d (on which both the above are based) comes with a lot of very high quality shaders, and you can get very professional looking graphics out of it, if the assets look good. Conversely, Unreal will not prevent Stompy Bots assets from looking like garbage if they are garbage.)


More importantly, is both engines support OpenGL and are cross platform out of the box.

So to answer your question, you can do the same thing for far less money. Unreal is good for big time developers who can afford to spend 3 quarters of a million dollars to get a year ahead of schedule, but I don't think it has a place in a kickstarter.

If you guys are interested, I can point out some for/against reasons for using unreal, along side some educated guesses as to why they are thinking of going down that route.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/03 08:08:29


 
   
Made in us
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Columbus, OH

BrandonKF wrote:
Even still, I'll keep trying to put it out there. Maybe with enough exposure and enough recognition folks will realize they are not actually trying to steal their money (which is practically the entirety of the argument that's been presented all along).


StompyBot is asking for an investment, which implies risk. Part of being an investor is determining how much of that risk you are willing to absorb, based upon the visible parameters you have access to. So things like team competencies, past track record, how they handle their current advertisement, etc. are all comparisons that you would use to say 'okay, this is a good or bad investment'. A known team with a good product is potentially lower risk than a new team with a good product, which is why in the outside world you have angel investors & venture capital firms who are willing to capitalize those risky teams when regular investors would steer clear.

And that's really what most of the complaining I've seen has been about. The KS has been run like amateur hour - in no particular order:

  • They started the KS portion of their campaign an exceptionally high funding goal, with no benefits until you hit that funding goal. They have consistently demonstrated a lack of KS savvy as they set their goals exceptionally high for the target audience

  • There has been a complete flip flop of their goals, from a MMOFPS to now including single player content. I read this that their design is weak and they aren't capable of selling it, which indicates they are either not passionate or competent about their game, and are willing to bow to player pressures. More often than not this leads to really sub-standard games as you try to be everything to everybody.

  • They have demonstrated very little technology beyond a deformable environment and mutable skins on their models. They have shown a single render - the Hunter - and little artwork for the other factions, when you'd think that they would be present at the start.

  • They are a rebranded MekTek, which has had various problems in the past.


  • The big take away for me has been that they aren't quite competent in managing their launch, which doesn't make me think they have their act together on the game. I would expect them to be able to clearly manage their offerring and have responses ready for the 'single player' demands and other whines from the community. Instead, they have offered poorly constructed vlogs, poor appeals to nostalgia and laughable 180s in design as they scramble to gain some funding... any funding.

    From my perspective, the way I look at it is this.

    You have a company that at one point was customizing motorcycles. They didn't have the best customer support, but they work they did was competent and they managed to gain a small following. They decided that they want to start making motorcycles, from soup to nuts. Instead of trying to build a prototype that had a low power engine, simple seat and body, and see if there was an interest in the market they instead decided to build a carbon-fiber body with all electronic control and asked their existing customers to fund the tooling they needed to work with the carbon fiber and to bring an electronics guy in house. Some of those customers are the people that had custom bikes that needed a minor repair and they company ignored every call they put in.

    It comes down to - how much do you like the ideal of the new bike? How easy do you think it is to go from bending steel to working with carbon fiber? How much money can you throw at them, assuming that it does work out? How much can you throw at it, assuming it doesn't work out?

    So far my impression of their competence is pretty low.
       
    Made in ca
    Helpful Sophotect




    Montreal

    I would also add that:
    They did not start with a Kickstarter. They collected funds on their own website, taking the money immediately. That's ... optimistic, to say the least.
    Personally, I would start by making sure I will get enough money before collecting anything. This also hurts their kickstarter, since they already "wasted" their initial pledge peak somewhere else.

    They have a F2P model. That means that people have to pay while playing. They have decided to do a single-player game because the potential market reaction was hostile to a MMFPS. That means that their income system, the things that would allow them to keep the servers running, pay the bills and eat, might have to change. Yet they decided to do the single player really quickly... without changing the income system.
    Also, technically speaking, everyone who pledged on their website pledged for a MMPFS, done a specific way. They will not get the project they pledged for.

    They have been insisting that "F2C" is not "F2P" since the very beginning. They have defined F2C exactly like I would define F2P. It's slightly weird to see a "F2P bad, F2C good" graphic right above a description of F2C that applies just as much to F2P. That's not a big issue, it's just a weird delusion that they are changing the world while doing something very common. The problem with F2P is not the model itself, it's the implementation. Since it's all about the details, you can't know if the implementation is good until it's been out for a while.
       
    Made in us
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    Indiana, U.S.A.

    Why don't you guys go to their forums on MekTek and discuss it with them? Ask them, and they'll answer you.

    Here's the link:

    http://www.mektek.net/forums/forum/234-hga-discussion/

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/03 19:54:28


       
    Made in us
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    Deep Frier of Mount Doom

    BrandonKF wrote:
    Why don't you guys go to their forums on MekTek and discuss it with them? Ask them, and they'll answer you.

    Here's the link:

    http://www.mektek.net/forums/forum/234-hga-discussion/


    Brandon, I don't think anyone here means to take out their Mektek frustrations out on you as a proxy punching bag so hopefully you don't feel that way. That said, I think almost everyone who posted in the last couple of pages (including yourself) has already made up their minds about the crowdfunding after following the game for several months and won't be swayed barring some shocking world changing disclosures.
       
    Made in us
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    Indiana, U.S.A.

    That's pretty much exactly how I feel when I get hammered by experts with every possible factoid to try and dispel excitement about the game, warboss.

    Edit: Fact is, I've had many disagreements with Hudson, Ice, and mrondeau in the past.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/03 21:34:40


       
    Made in au
    Nimble Dark Rider




    BrandonKF wrote:
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel when I get hammered by experts with every possible factoid to try and dispel excitement about the game, warboss.


    Sorry, my latest post was trying to be very tactful about that, but I have the tact of a freight train full of sledgehammers so what can I do?
       
    Made in us
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    Indiana, U.S.A.

    Not just about you, GBL. As stated above, Ice, mrondeau and Hudson had disagreements with me on the DP9 forums.

    I'm not exactly well-suited for discussions about such things. I'm just a simple fan trying to drum up excitement and getting folks interested in the game. I'm not equipped with all the math abilities, game experience, probabilities and what-have-you that you guys have.

    Edit: Here's their newest update on Facebook:

    "Hate F2P? Get all launch content with a one-time-payment Opt-out Bundle. Love F2P? Play for free -- forever. Want to host your own servers? Sign up for Premium membership. All Gears and equipment purchased by any player of any payment level are always the same and always attainable. Combined with our intelligent Threat-Value matchmaking system that matches players based on variables such as equipment quality and recent win/loss ratio, and you're always in for a fair fight.

    Learn more about our revolutionary Free-to-Choose (F2C) model in this Kickstarter update."


    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stompybot/heavy-gear-assault-0/posts/499280

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/03 21:47:21


       
    Made in au
    Nimble Dark Rider




    BrandonKF wrote:
    Not just about you, GBL. As stated above, Ice, mrondeau and Hudson had disagreements with me on the DP9 forums.

    I'm not exactly well-suited for discussions about such things. I'm just a simple fan trying to drum up excitement and getting folks interested in the game. I'm not equipped with all the math abilities, game experience, probabilities and what-have-you that you guys have.


    Its a laudable goal. And if they rescope, come back with a new kickstarter next month, you may well be on the winning "side" of this debate. Its not over until they give up, and their FAQ on their website still says that they don't plan on doing a kickstarter. Obviously things can and will change. I still think that they are unwilling to move on Unreal as a platform, if they did they could make this for far cheaper.
       
    Made in us
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    Indiana, U.S.A.

    Here's their newest update on Facebook:

    "Hate F2P? Get all launch content with a one-time-payment Opt-out Bundle. Love F2P? Play for free -- forever. Want to host your own servers? Sign up for Premium membership. All Gears and equipment purchased by any player of any payment level are always the same and always attainable. Combined with our intelligent Threat-Value matchmaking system that matches players based on variables such as equipment quality and recent win/loss ratio, and you're always in for a fair fight.

    Learn more about our revolutionary Free-to-Choose (F2C) model in this Kickstarter update."

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stompybot/heavy-gear-assault-0/posts/499280

    What if I just want to play the singleplayer episodes?
    You’re in luck! All players who contribute at least $15 on Kickstarter will receive access to the first singleplayer episode and any additional episodes that are unlocked as part of our stretch goals during the Kickstarter campaign -- at no extra cost.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/03 21:56:35


       
    Made in re
    Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot






    KD, could you go easy on the martyr routine please ?

    Like 'em or hate 'em, facts are facts. Right now, the fact is that Stompy/Mektek have not shown any evidence of having what it takes to manage such an ambitious project. They have stated intentions, sure, but intentions and abilities are two very different things. The embarassing failures of not one, but two crowdfunding campaigns is only a symptom of that gap.
    Will I (we) change my mind if they manage to show the right stuff ? I'll be happy to. Right now, I cannot in good faith support such amateurism.

    Oh, as I was typing, the KS got updated with detailed explanations of their new, revolutionary (sic) F2C model, which is the exact, text-book definition of the current F2P model every F2P MMO use. Seriously, with blunders like that, how can you expect people to trust and fund this project ?

    Virtus in extremis 
       
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    Deep Frier of Mount Doom

    BrandonKF wrote:
    That's pretty much exactly how I feel when I get hammered by experts with every possible factoid to try and dispel excitement about the game, warboss.


    While I can't speak for others, I feel incredibly disappointed by the whole endeavor. My own personal excitement about the project was dispelled by Mektek. There was a reason that when I didn't see any news after the initial license announcement that I started a thread asking if anything was going on. There was a reason that I was clicking (or technically tapping on my phone) at the end of the countdown after counting down the days with the timer. I *was* excited. What dispelled that excitement was the initial crowdfunding that felt like it was planned on a cocktail napkin and executed by high school freshman computer science class students. I've tried to not comment on it on the dp9 forums as much as possible out of respect to DP9 (who have little to do with this project) during the kickstarter but the ridiculous initial goals coupled with piss poor execution initially have dispelled any excitement on my part. No amount of video blogs will fix that. IMO they need to start from scratch and come up with a completely different *reasonable* goal/business plan commensurate with their resources and abilities.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/03 22:13:39


     
       
    Made in us
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    Indiana, U.S.A.

    There are many things I want to say, but I'll refrain from doing so.

    I'm rewritten this same post I don't know how many times, but I'll just leave it to updates. Stick to facts, as it were.

    warboss, I don't think that what you describe is going to happen.

       
    Made in us
    PanOceaniac Hacking Specialist Sergeant






    Fact is, we don't have sufficient actual facts from the company involved, besides 'take our word for it press releases', that don't actually give any indication of what the plan is, or how they're organizing things.

    Anyone who's actually professionally worked in developing or managing a game project can tell you, this entire thing not only suggests poor management, but smells strongly of it. The fact that they can't really even figure out the order of magnitude of how much some things will cost is a strong sign.

    I know you're a big fan. But being a fan is less useful to getting an actual thing done in the real world than to be critical and expect transparency. It's good to have an enthusiastic base, but there's nothing shown to be enthusiastic about yet. And the fact that they don't have such a thing proves incompetence and ignorance about the actual mechanics of kickstarter. They're focusing way too much on ideas of what the Product will be, not on what the Project will be.

     
       
    Made in us
    Most Glorious Grey Seer





    Everett, WA

    There are few hard and fast rules I have that I will never break. This is one of them:

    Never invest in software development - especially game software.

    Seriously. Don't do it.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/04 00:05:59


     
       
    Made in us
    The New Miss Macross!





    Deep Frier of Mount Doom

    BrandonKF wrote:

    warboss, I don't think that what you describe is going to happen.


    On that we unfortunately agree... :( But a man can dream (about XCOM: Heavy Gear on consoles...)
       
    Made in us
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     warboss wrote:
    BrandonKF wrote:

    warboss, I don't think that what you describe is going to happen.


    On that we unfortunately agree... :( But a man can dream (about XCOM: Heavy Gear on consoles...)


    I like the way you think. Alas

     
       
    Made in us
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    Europe - Exiled American Dissident/Militant

     Killionaire wrote:
     warboss wrote:
    BrandonKF wrote:

    warboss, I don't think that what you describe is going to happen.


    On that we unfortunately agree... :( But a man can dream (about XCOM: Heavy Gear on consoles...)


    I like the way you think. Alas


    Gentlemen - I too would love to play Heavy Gear on my X-Box 360. I am worried about the KS as well. I wish it were going like the Mantic one did - but I understand the concerns that have been mentioned to date. I will continue to support it up to the last hours of the campaign.

    Dark Angels - Lots
    Imperial Guard- Lots + Tanks
    Deathwatch - A little
    / - Moderate
    / - Worldeaters (30K) - Some - - 40K A lot
    - Red Corsairs - Moderate 
       
    Made in us
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    Deep Frier of Mount Doom

     Killionaire wrote:
     warboss wrote:
    BrandonKF wrote:

    warboss, I don't think that what you describe is going to happen.


    On that we unfortunately agree... :( But a man can dream (about XCOM: Heavy Gear on consoles...)


    I like the way you think. Alas


    Yeah... the idea of a gear squad fighting it out in turn based combat with some choice animations would indeed be great for consoles... Uh... I wish they had gone that route.

    On a more positive note, the "opt out" option quasi-buying the game upfront is a nice addition but I'm kind of confused how that fits in between the other pledge levels. The full $60 opt out bundle that contains all the north/south gears.. how does that interact with the premium membership? What is the difference between a well stocked arsenal and a fully stocked arsenal? How does the $500 pledge level containing all "core gears" compare with the opt out benefit of northern/southern gears? I'm glad they added that option (although I'm not sure how you'd get it via pledges as I don't see an option for just that) but it seems like they added that without really considering how that $60 opt out affects the other pledges' relative values. In the end, it's a bit esoteric for me personally as I'm not a PC gamer and don't plan to be. I don't know if they can actually change the pledge levels that people have already chosen in kickstarter.
       
    Made in us
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    Columbus, OH

    BrandonKF wrote:
    Edit: Fact is, I've had many disagreements with Hudson, Ice, and mrondeau in the past.


    I'm not trying to make a punching bag out of you, but this is an open forum - your ideals are but one of many, and live or die by the strength of their argument. You seem to consistently cast me in the light of a disagreeable ogre out to gobble up all the goodness and light in the universe to give your position strength, and it's wearing thin. I'm not kicking your kittens, I'm not a bad guy - I'm just voicing my opinions, the exact same way you are. I'm trying to be fair here, but I'm not a thug and I don't like being portrayed that way.



    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     warboss wrote:

    Yeah... the idea of a gear squad fighting it out in turn based combat with some choice animations would indeed be great for consoles... Uh... I wish they had gone that route.


    I totally vote for a https://mwtactics.com/ approach. That would make me soo happy. I'm pretty sure I'd throw hours away just killing off Jagers in the badlands...

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/05 13:35:27


     
       
    Made in us
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    Deep Frier of Mount Doom

     IceRaptor wrote:
     warboss wrote:

    Yeah... the idea of a gear squad fighting it out in turn based combat with some choice animations would indeed be great for consoles... Uh... I wish they had gone that route.


    I totally vote for a https://mwtactics.com/ approach. That would make me soo happy. I'm pretty sure I'd throw hours away just killing off Jagers in the badlands...


    Lol, the site is down for maintenance. Perhaps its not the greatest example at the moment. Is that basically the program that is a much prettier and more automated version of vassal specific for MW?
       
    Made in us
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    Columbus, OH

     warboss wrote:

    Lol, the site is down for maintenance. Perhaps its not the greatest example at the moment. Is that basically the program that is a much prettier and more automated version of vassal specific for MW?


    You're thinking of MegaMek (http://megamek.info/). MWTactics is much nicer UI, and they're using a quasi-card based mechanic for the MMO aspect that should give it some legs.

    I'm mostly drooling over the graphics, though. The boards look quite nice.
       
    Made in us
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    Columbus, OH

    New video up:




    Actually looks pretty slick.
       
    Made in us
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    Columbus, OH

    So at this point, the KS campaign looks DOA - it's barely making any money day to day and the Kicktraq trendline is showing less than 80k for the pledge. That's pretty disappointing, as that last video was pretty nice, and if they could get some gameplay out there of that caliber I'd be willing to drop some serious cash.

    Oh well. I guess Titanfall will have to do for my mecha fix, unfortunately.
       
    Made in us
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    Deep Frier of Mount Doom

    Yeah, HG was what was running through my mind when I saw that trailer. The mechs there are about the size of a grizzly/cobra using my (now ancient) memories of the full size hunter gear DP9 used to bring to GenCon. I want some relatively fast paced (at least mass effect 3/space marine speed) third person mech gaming sometime in the next few years. If the Xbone changes its anti-consumer policies, it may end up scratching that itch.
       
    Made in ca
    Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




    Toronto, Ontario

     warboss wrote:
    Yeah, HG was what was running through my mind when I saw that trailer. The mechs there are about the size of a grizzly/cobra using my (now ancient) memories of the full size hunter gear DP9 used to bring to GenCon. I want some relatively fast paced (at least mass effect 3/space marine speed) third person mech gaming sometime in the next few years. If the Xbone changes its anti-consumer policies, it may end up scratching that itch.


    If you're specifically referring to Titanfall, Wikipedia lists it as being available for Windows eventually, so as long as you have a PC capable of supporting it, the XBone's draconian policies might not be all that big a deal.

    It's hope I'm hoping to play it, assuming they can deliver on what the trailer showed off.
       
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    Deep Frier of Mount Doom

    I got into console gaming as an exit from PC gaming ironically.
       
    Made in us
    The New Miss Macross!





    Deep Frier of Mount Doom

    The kickstarter has just crossed another unfortunate milestone. It now needs to earn more per day every single day for the rest of the kickstarter than it has total for the entirety of the KS campaign to date in order to hit the minimum funding goal. I take no joy in posting that (despite what some readers may assume) but rather see it as the culmination of a bunch of irreversible mistakes. It's not a case of too little too late as I do agree with Brandon that /Stompy are actually trying at this point (so not too little) but it definitely is way too late.
    [Thumb - minichart.png]

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/12 22:23:32


     
       
    Made in us
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    San Diego, CA

    Fall back and regroup!

    Bernard, float over here so I can punch you. 
       
    Made in us
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    Deep Frier of Mount Doom

    Silly gearhead... morale rules are optional in HG which generally means no one uses them. Just like your gears, they're in it till they're overkilled! :(

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/13 00:58:23


     
       
     
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