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I understand that a good Death Wing Assault doesn't work well at just 1K points, but I wanted to put something together on the cheap (so my wife will actually let me buy them . I typically play with friends in a team sort of setup so I wont being going at it alone with just these units.

HQ
Azrael - 215

Com Sq - 175
Apothecary
4xPlasma Gun

Drop Pod - 35

Troops
DW Term Sq - 250
TH/SS
CML

RW Atk Sq A - 100
2xMelta

RW Atk Sq B - 100
2xMelta

RW Black Knights - 126

Total: 1001

Pro: 4 troop options for 1K game is pretty awesome. Az comes in the DP with the com sq and blast whatever high value targets they can while the DW term sq comes in turn 1 off of one of the bike sq homer beacons.

Con: Az is somewhat vulnerable. I thought about putting him with a vet sq but though I can fit more models, I felt they would be less effective with the loss of the apoth.

Thoughts?


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Couple of questions from a newish player:
- Can a model with a CML carry a TH/SS as well? I have read that they can, and that they cant.
- Can an IC split from one unit and then join another unit in the same movement phase?

I would love to have Azrael join the term squad to assault. Also, would it be worth switching the RW Black Knights to a normal bike squad to give the termies some extra weapons?

Thanks!

Anything?

My advise is to quit if you have to ask your wife about each purchase.

It's an interesting list, I don't see much room to improve, only because there's so little room at 1k. What I can offer is answers to your questions.

Yes a TH/SS termie can take the CML. The CML is taken "in addition to" the weapons all other heavy weapons are "instead of storm bolter"

Also a character can detach then attach to another squad provided he moves more than 2" away from the original squad while also being within 2" of the new squad

I'd sell my wife to slave traders, and use the money to buy my army.

No you can't have a cml and th/ss as the th/ss replaces all weapons and the cml is a weapon.

Aa for the list:

Dual wing with Azreal is tough to make effective at high points cost at 1k it is untenable. As you say Azreal is somewhat vulnerable and that's nearly half your points in a pretty easy to kill unit.

Your ravenwing squads are brittle and are your main AT and need to operate within 6" of the enemy, something they simply cannot do.

Whilst 3 black knights aren't enough, they work better at higher points.

You can get away with Deathwing at 1k if you want or even Ravenwing. But not both. For DW Id do something like this:

Belial

6 DW: cml, cf, th/ss
5 DW: cml, cf, th/ss
5 DW: cml, cf, th/ss

That's 17 Terminators deepstriking turn 1! 6 missile launcher shots and 28 bolter shots all twin linked is your alphastrike. Still low model count but hats going to be the issue with any DW for RW army particularly at low points level.

 FlingitNow wrote:
No you can't have a cml and th/ss as the th/ss replaces all weapons and the cml is a weapon.

I'm going to have to confirm this with the codex when I'm off work, but I'm fair certain you're wrong here. The TH/SS replaces the power fist and storm bolter, while the CML says "may take" nothing about replacing. If the TH/SS doesn't specify that it replaces PF/SB then it's just a matter of how you purchase it. First I purchase the TH/SS because it is listed first, then I purchase the CML for that Termie because it is listed later in the codex entry. The TH/SS has replaced my weapons and then I've added a third weapon

andystache is right,

You have always been able to take a CML on top of any other weapon load out for termis

 FlingitNow wrote:


Belial

6 DW: cml, cf, th/ss
5 DW: cml, cf, th/ss
5 DW: cml, cf, th/ss

That's 17 Terminators deepstriking turn 1! 6 missile launcher shots and 28 bolter shots all twin linked is your alphastrike. Still low model count but hats going to be the issue with any DW for RW army particularly at low points level.

No. In the BRB it says that if you have no models on the table at any point for any reason, you automatically lose. It even specifically mentions an all reserve army as an example. Also, you can have cml on the thunder hammer guy. It's similar to things such as an astartes grenade launcher for honor guard. They may take it, but it doesn't replace anything.

Yes a DW Termie can have both CML and TH/SS

The CML replaces NOTHING

I like the list at 1000 to be honest mostly because it looks fun to play , drop Azrael near termies then attach if that's a big worry .

ImRightBehindYou no you only lose if you have no models on the table at the end of a game turn. Otherwise daemons auto lose every game. The rules are very specific here.

Yes the cml does not replace anything. However the TH/SS replaces ALL weapons. If the cml is a weapon the TH/SS replaces it. For precedent check the BA furioso Librarian who when purchased replaces ALL wargear and the faq ruled you are not then allowed to take extra wargear like extra armour. All means all.

Thats because you are changing the furioso dreadnought to a furioso librarian dreadnought which cannot take any upgrades, the deathwing terminator is still a deathwing terminator with or without CML th SS etc etc. You swap all weapons for TH SS then TAKE the CML after,

MarkyMark wrote:
Thats because you are changing the furioso dreadnought to a furioso librarian dreadnought which cannot take any upgrades, the deathwing terminator is still a deathwing terminator with or without CML th SS etc etc. You swap all weapons for TH SS then TAKE the CML after,

That argument would have ground if the BA codex said "a furioso dreadnought may take:" but it doesn't so your argument has no grounds in the rules. RaW is no th/SS and cml, precedent supports this any other argument is at the moment just breaking the rules to get an advantage.

Looking at the BA Codex, it says Furioso dreadnought in the army lists, with a list of options under it, the last one is upgrade to a Furioso Librarian, exchanging all wargear for a blood fist (with built in storm bolter), smoke launchers, psyhic hood and force weapon.

That is pretty clear cut you are changing from a furioso dreadnought to a furioso librarian, unless you are trying to argue that the dreadnought cannot take any of the options listed because it doesnt say the furioso dreadnought may take....

I think if you are going for 1000 points I would just go pure DW for troops with perhaps RW squad. Using the ability to splitfire and the nice HW options I think you can cover for most contingencies...

Belial 190

DW - Plasma Cannon 235
DW - CML 245
DW - CML 245

That leaves you with 85 points... Now you can either go with 2 chainfists and 1 typhoon landspeeder or a RW.

I went with Plasma Cannon as this can beat up any medium vehicle or slaughter MEQ/TEQ. 2 CMLs gives you some hoard control and good anti-tank. The other option of course is to go with assault cannons - shorter range but they can do everything reasonably well including taking out heavy armor with a little luck.


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With splitfire you have the ability to target 3 troops with 8 stormbolter shots each then individually target 1 blast template S7 AP2 and 4 blast template S4 AP 5. Then you have your typhoon with 2 blast template S4 AP5 and 3 S5 AP4 shots. Of course you can target 3 vehicles with 6 S8 AP3 shots and still get 24 bolter shots at troops.

This army has survivability but it lacks in speed that is the only real problem.

But those options don't preclude the furioso librarian from taking them. Like in a tac squad a marine may take a meltagun but a sergeant may not because it says a space marine may...

This is not the case for the furioso the ONLY thing preventing him from taking wargear is the replaces all clause which the faq clarifies is the way that clause works.

This is not the place for this discussion though take it to ymdc if you want to try to argue against the rules.

The options listed are clearly for the furioso dreadnought, as it is in the options under their entry in the army lists, the libby is a upgrade so it then ceases to be a furioso dreadnought which is entitled to take those options, its clear RAW that is how you read it. Find a entry in the army lists or codex for the furioso librarian taking any options, there arent any that is how it is precluded.

The TH SS with CML is also clear, you do not change the model from a deathwing terminator to a DW TH SS terminator so you can swap all weapons for the TH SS then take the CML.

Because you upgrade the Furioso to a furioso libby it is a different situation and therefore cannot be used as a percedant

 ImRightBehindYou wrote:
My advise is to quit if you have to ask your wife about each purchase.

Ouch!




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 FlingitNow wrote:
No you can't have a cml and th/ss as the th/ss replaces all weapons and the cml is a weapon.

Aa for the list:

Dual wing with Azreal is tough to make effective at high points cost at 1k it is untenable. As you say Azreal is somewhat vulnerable and that's nearly half your points in a pretty easy to kill unit.

Your ravenwing squads are brittle and are your main AT and need to operate within 6" of the enemy, something they simply cannot do.

Whilst 3 black knights aren't enough, they work better at higher points.

You can get away with Deathwing at 1k if you want or even Ravenwing. But not both. For DW Id do something like this:

Belial

6 DW: cml, cf, th/ss
5 DW: cml, cf, th/ss
5 DW: cml, cf, th/ss

That's 17 Terminators deepstriking turn 1! 6 missile launcher shots and 28 bolter shots all twin linked is your alphastrike. Still low model count but hats going to be the issue with any DW for RW army particularly at low points level.

Let me explain my thought process for this list. I started with Belial and some DW, but then I learned that you have to have at least half your force on the table according to the deep strike and reserve rules. So I could take Belial, 2 DW squads, and then I needed two other units. I liked the idea of homer beacons on the RW bikes and the flexibility it gave me. BA are supposed to be all about hit them fast from out of no where and anhilate the enemy before they know what hit them. So... I ended up with two bike squads. But then in looking at it, if I brought Azrael, I could make more units scoring, and Azrael brings more to the table then Belial, with all of his relics and litany.

Yes the RW squads are small, but as such easier to hide. Their job is to move up as scouts prior to turn one, depending upon scenario, terrain and opponent. On my first turn, DP comes in where its firepower is best needed. The RW bikes get used depending upon the situation, to either move up and take melta shots on transports or MCs.

I am a big believer in full points in use at all times. Flyers or other deepstrikers? Bring em! Thats less points on the table that my full points will be wiping out.

Sure there are plenty of weaknesses and a lot of situations where this wont work, but thats almost always going to be the case for every list.

Thanks for all of the input!


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DAaddict wrote:
I think if you are going for 1000 points I would just go pure DW for troops with perhaps RW squad. Using the ability to splitfire and the nice HW options I think you can cover for most contingencies...

Belial 190

DW - Plasma Cannon 235
DW - CML 245
DW - CML 245

That leaves you with 85 points... Now you can either go with 2 chainfists and 1 typhoon landspeeder or a RW.

I went with Plasma Cannon as this can beat up any medium vehicle or slaughter MEQ/TEQ. 2 CMLs gives you some hoard control and good anti-tank. The other option of course is to go with assault cannons - shorter range but they can do everything reasonably well including taking out heavy armor with a little luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With splitfire you have the ability to target 3 troops with 8 stormbolter shots each then individually target 1 blast template S7 AP2 and 4 blast template S4 AP 5. Then you have your typhoon with 2 blast template S4 AP5 and 3 S5 AP4 shots. Of course you can target 3 vehicles with 6 S8 AP3 shots and still get 24 bolter shots at troops.

This army has survivability but it lacks in speed that is the only real problem.

My concern with this is that two of the DW units will have to start on the board and will have to walk across the table. Sure they can sit on a home point and plink things with the CML and maybe get a few SB shots in, but otherwise its 250 pts doing something effectively as a unit worth 100 pts.

Also, I like the CML on TH/SS because with so few models in the unit, having one that can only melee is a pretty big loss in overall firepower.

No units have to start on the board. You are allowed to put upto half your units in reserve when deploying your army. DWA is done immediately after Warlord traits so you can DWA with your entire army if it is all DW.

Let me make this clear. First of all, you could do the TH/SS with cml with the last codex, and it read the same way, so.... If that isn't enough proof that you can do it, then why don't you just equip your th/ss first, and then take the cml. Seriously dude, you sound like such a RAW jerk off. I can tell I would never want to play against you because every second you'd be arguing about something.

Belial was 130 points in the last codex does that mean I can get him now for 130 points? The rules where different in the last codex, you can not get around the all clause. I'm not someone who loves RaW, RaI is the rules by definition and the BA faq clearly illustrates the RaI here.

So you have 2 options model your cml with TH/SS and hope your opponent doesn't know the rules, is ok with you breaking them or is worse at arguing than you. Knowing that you'll then have to destroy your model when the faq comes out. Or don't model TH/SS and cml on same model and have no arguments and don't have to destroy any models when the faq comes out.

The choice is yours.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Belial was 130 points in the last codex does that mean I can get him now for 130 points? The rules where different in the last codex, you can not get around the all clause. I'm not someone who loves RaW, RaI is the rules by definition and the BA faq clearly illustrates the RaI here.

So you have 2 options model your cml with TH/SS and hope your opponent doesn't know the rules, is ok with you breaking them or is worse at arguing than you. Knowing that you'll then have to destroy your model when the faq comes out. Or don't model TH/SS and cml on same model and have no arguments and don't have to destroy any models when the faq comes out.

The choice is yours.

Like I said above it is different, now take a look at the ork FAQ and that says there is no order of upgrades when upgrading a boy squad, thats a much better comparsion